Philosophy Discussion Forums

I like all the ideals. Yeah, ideally Israel's government would stop "settlers" rather than caving in to their extremist supporter base. Like most invasions happening today, such as China's slow "salami-slicing" invasions of India, Bhutan, Nepal and Russia, or the largely Irish invasion of Native American lands, it's not actually a government initiative but a government's inability to control its fringes. The issue is often that the government fears its extreme elements, who may trigger civil warfare.

And yeah, ideally Arabs would accept a two-state solution and stop their endless attempts to remove Israel from the map. However, if you were in power in Palestine, would you challenge your extremist elements? I suspect some people would have spoken out in favour of moderation rather than radicalisation, but they would now be dead.

These ideals have been on the table for seven decades but extremists in the Middle east are as extreme and uncompromising as it's possible for a human being to be. I am pretty sure that moderate elements on both sides have been long cowed into submission by the hard cores. When survival is on the line, extremists take power.

Unfortunately, we live in reality, not a benevolent dimension where our ideals come to pass. As things stand, as far as I'm concerned, Hamas instigated the war and brought it on themselves. I'd say the same if the Philippines wearied of China's invasion of their waters and sent missiles into China.

It's stupid to attack a much stronger enemy. However, the Philippines has leadership that cares more about its people than attracting international attention. Hamas is like a chess player who has decided to sacrifice many of its pawns to open up a big move. Then everyone blames Israel.

In the meantime, no one cares in the slightest about Sudan. There was another drone strike yesterday on a civilian safe haven. Who would have known? Instead we have Australian politicians grandstanding endlessly about one Israeli military error, made largely because Hamas makes sure their trucks to look like aid trucks. Their human shield strategy is the gift that keeps on giving, and Israel takes all of the blame all of the time.

Since last April, the fighting has killed many thousands, including up to 15,000 in one Darfur town, and displaced 8.6 million people.

But that doesn't matter at all, does it? After all, if it mattered it would be plastered all over the news like every minor development in Palestine. Why? Because the Oppressors are not Evil Whites or Jews. It's basically, the long time Marxism-driven anti-Semitism of tertiary institutions that has been unconsciously internalised by the polity and media.

Human tribes have made war on each other since before the start of recorded history.

When good people go to war they make reasonable attempts to avoid civilian casualties.

When less-good people go to war they don't care about civilian casualties.

When bad people go to war they aim to cause civilian casualties to maximize pain to their opponents.

When really evil people go to war they put their own civilians in the firing line by a "human shields" policy.

Says it all...

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 6th, 2024, 5:48 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑April 6th, 2024, 7:24 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 5th, 2024, 3:25 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 5th, 2024, 11:11 am

These "attempts" might have been more credible if they weren't accompanied by a steadily-expanding area of military occupation.

Who could deal with someone who is intent on worsening the situation that needs to be discussed? In 1947, Israel was given 'only' 55% of Palestine. In 1967 they took a load more. Since then, they have continued to take more and more. Given that expansion of the occupation still proceeds, how could the Palestinians sit down with Israel to discuss getting (at least some of) their land back?

Excuses. That wasn't the whole time. Seventy years of refusing to back down, no matter how much it harms your people.

It looks like madness, but maybe not. Pushing blind hatred of Israel is a gravy train for Hamas leaders, who live in safety and luxury as they make decisions that make Palestinian civilians look indistinguishable from soldiers. This is designed to boost civilian casualties, which allows Hamas to easily manipulate soft, naive, virtue-signalling western dupes.

Hamas's three top leaders are worth $11 billion. I wonder how they made that money, and I wonder if that reveals how much they care towards poor Palestinians?

Your point of view about Hamas needs to be said. But there is more. The behaviour of the Israelis in Gaza and in the West Bank is not justified by the unjustifiable Hamas or even by those Palestinians who vote for Hamas. Civilised people don't kill or deliberately starve children , nor wipe out whole populations and those who go there to feed and water starving and dehydrated people.
Nazis, and Right Wing Israelis are tribal and have tribal values. The civilised conversation is about how to quench their tribal fears that make them cruel . Sending arms and moral support won't make peace.

Your description of Hamas is that they are more like a Mafia than a legitimate government. I am pretty sure that civilised people deal with recognised criminals in a pragmatic manner without endangering non-combatants.

Facing the fanaticism of Palestine's intractable stated aim of destroying Israel for seventy years, with multiple attempts to reach a compromise failed, Israel is entitled to try to sort this out once and for all.

Of course, Hamas could have ended this in October and prevented all subsequent deaths by returning the hostages unharmed. They chose war.

I suspect that the Israeli hostages have been harmed or killed, so Hamas cannot return the dead and abused without further retribution. So they keep Israel's faint hope alive that the hostages will be returned unharmed.

The left is at least as tribal as the right - obsessing about the deemed Oppressor vs the deemed Oppressed. It was astonishing to see Ivy league academics saying under oath that they don' consider calls for genocide of Jews to be necessarily against the universities' policies. Imagine that same response regarding calls for genocide of any other ethno-religious group! Also consider large groups of left wing protesters at universities harassing Jewish students.

Tribalism is an ugly feature of both sides of politics.

But "both sides of politics" is a less useful heuristic than the fact that tribalism dwells with extremism and universalism with moderation. The really useful heuristic is a spectrum. Likud is immoderately extremist. Whether or not Hamas is justified, Netanyahu is not only extremist but with western backing is an exceptionally powerful extremist who is already responsible for genocide and atrocities far in excess of what Hamas can possibly do.

Belinda wrote: ↑April 11th, 2024, 5:04 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 6th, 2024, 5:48 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑April 6th, 2024, 7:24 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 5th, 2024, 3:25 pm

Excuses. That wasn't the whole time. Seventy years of refusing to back down, no matter how much it harms your people.

It looks like madness, but maybe not. Pushing blind hatred of Israel is a gravy train for Hamas leaders, who live in safety and luxury as they make decisions that make Palestinian civilians look indistinguishable from soldiers. This is designed to boost civilian casualties, which allows Hamas to easily manipulate soft, naive, virtue-signalling western dupes.

Hamas's three top leaders are worth $11 billion. I wonder how they made that money, and I wonder if that reveals how much they care towards poor Palestinians?

Your point of view about Hamas needs to be said. But there is more. The behaviour of the Israelis in Gaza and in the West Bank is not justified by the unjustifiable Hamas or even by those Palestinians who vote for Hamas. Civilised people don't kill or deliberately starve children , nor wipe out whole populations and those who go there to feed and water starving and dehydrated people.
Nazis, and Right Wing Israelis are tribal and have tribal values. The civilised conversation is about how to quench their tribal fears that make them cruel . Sending arms and moral support won't make peace.

Your description of Hamas is that they are more like a Mafia than a legitimate government. I am pretty sure that civilised people deal with recognised criminals in a pragmatic manner without endangering non-combatants.

Facing the fanaticism of Palestine's intractable stated aim of destroying Israel for seventy years, with multiple attempts to reach a compromise failed, Israel is entitled to try to sort this out once and for all.

Of course, Hamas could have ended this in October and prevented all subsequent deaths by returning the hostages unharmed. They chose war.

I suspect that the Israeli hostages have been harmed or killed, so Hamas cannot return the dead and abused without further retribution. So they keep Israel's faint hope alive that the hostages will be returned unharmed.

The left is at least as tribal as the right - obsessing about the deemed Oppressor vs the deemed Oppressed. It was astonishing to see Ivy league academics saying under oath that they don' consider calls for genocide of Jews to be necessarily against the universities' policies. Imagine that same response regarding calls for genocide of any other ethno-religious group! Also consider large groups of left wing protesters at universities harassing Jewish students.

Tribalism is an ugly feature of both sides of politics.

But "both sides of politics" is a less useful heuristic than the fact that tribalism dwells with extremism and universalism with moderation. The really useful heuristic is a spectrum. Likud is immoderately extremist. Whether or not Hamas is justified, Netanyahu is not only extremist but with western backing is an exceptionally powerful extremist who is already responsible for genocide and atrocities far in excess of what Hamas can possibly do.

The Palestinian population has risen more quickly than Israel's so it seems that they are really poor at "genocide". The UN is ridiculous. Over half of their resolutions are aimed at Israel - more than the rest of the world combined. It seems that the rest of the world has been exceedingly well behaved - aside from some wars replete with war crimes, actual genocides (not Hamas and UN propaganda), and Russia, China and the US gottten up to much skulduggery ... without UN having a problem with it.

Netanyahu is extreme because he faces extreme opponents. It' always the case that we become most like our enemies. You are what you think about and act on, so this endless war has worked to increase extremism on both sides. But it's not equivalent. Israel has offered a two-state solution that Palestine keeps rejecting because they are so extreme, so unable to consider compromise.

I am sure those two-state models presented were a rip-off. The ruthless way some Jews do business is why they are so unpopular, I'm guessing. Still, if Palestine had accepted one of those models and then worked to improve the nation rather than embarking on endless war, the Palestinian people would have been much better off. The beauty of war is it keeps politicians in power, no matter how badly they are stinking up the place domestically. The People follow their Fearless Leader against the Foreign Devils. And "Fearless Leader" stays in power for decades.

Good_Egg wrote: ↑April 11th, 2024, 4:00 am Human tribes have made war on each other since before the start of recorded history.

When good people go to war they make reasonable attempts to avoid civilian casualties.

When less-good people go to war they don't care about civilian casualties.

When bad people go to war they aim to cause civilian casualties to maximize pain to their opponents.

When really evil people go to war they put their own civilians in the firing line by a "human shields" policy.

Says it all...

You make some good points here but I don't think you “say it all”.
In Palestine I hope we can agree that objectively the “good people” ship has sailed.
I would agree that intentionally harming civilians is evil.
I believe that Hamas killed civilians on Oct 7 and Israel has killed civilians for the last 6 months. I hope it matters that the magnitude of killing must enter into the discussion. Where Hamas killed less than 1,000 civilians on Oct 7, Israel has killed tens of thousands. The civilian deaths by IDF were not accidents as Israel officials that stated that all Palestinians in Gaza need to be evacuated or killed.

It has to be evil when IDF soldiers brag about committing crimes against humanity like using snipers to shoot children, raping Palestinian women, killing people with white flags of surrender, bombing religious temples, schools, hospitals, killing aid workers and UN officials.
I also think it's evil to kill one's own soldiers to prevent them from falling into enemy hands as the IDF has been know to do via their “Hannibal Directive”.

Israel on one hand claims that Hamas uses civilians as human shields in their (Israel's) attempts to justify killing civilians, but on the other hand they say that all Gaza Palestinians are Hamas also to justify killing them.

I think there should be an additional category of evil to cut off food, water and aid to a million people in order to starve them to death.

Good_Egg wrote: ↑April 11th, 2024, 4:00 am Human tribes have made war on each other since before the start of recorded history.

When good people go to war they make reasonable attempts to avoid civilian casualties.

When less-good people go to war they don't care about civilian casualties.

When bad people go to war they aim to cause civilian casualties to maximize pain to their opponents.

When really evil people go to war they put their own civilians in the firing line by a "human shields" policy.

Says it all...

Where would you rank the United States of Capitalism on your scale?

Hamas started it and they could end it any time. All they have to do is release the hostages. The current situation is Hamas's choice. The more the west encourages Hamas, the more they feel they are winning, and their decision to keep the hostages and provoke Israel into making mistakes is vindicated. The widespread support for Hamas in the west just shows the world that, if you have a problem, just start a war with someone stronger than you and university-trained Marxists will rally to your side.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 11th, 2024, 4:12 pm Hamas started it and they could end it any time.

The Egyptians* started it, nearly 3000 years ago, when they ejected the Jews from the land they were currently occupying, in what is now Palestine. If part of Palestine had not been given to someone else, Hamas would not even exist; there would be no need for it. Hamas was democratically elected by the people of Gaza to govern them, and to lead the struggle to regain at least some of their stolen land. They have done their best to do this, while facing the overwhelming military superiority of their invader-occupiers.

Israel (+UN+UK+USA) started it, and they could end it any time. By withdrawing behind their own borders and staying there, as nearly all countries do.



* — Assuming it was the Egyptians who ejected the Jews, all those centuries ago.

There will be no end to this until there is either a reasonable two-state solution or the extermination of the Palestinians. Israel does not want a two-state solution and never has. They have continuously encroached on Palestinian territory since the Partition and will continue to do so. And, for their part, the Palestinians have, understandably, never been happy about the Partition of their country. Why would they be?

That said, Hamas was crazy to think that their latest attack and the taking of hostages would change anything. They kicked an own goal that just gave Netanyahu the excuse he wanted to continue the extermination and expulsion of the Palestinians from their land. Madness!

The UN can pass resolutions until the cows come home and western nations can make nice noises about aid and a two-state solution, but it will never happen. Israel does not want it and America does not want it. America and NATO want to keep Israel as a foothold in the ME and as a buffer against the Muslim nations to the SE of Europe. In a year or two's time, nothing will have changed except that the ghetto that was Gaza will remain in ruins and Palestinian lands will be that much smaller as Israel continues it's encroachments. For the Palestinians it will continue to be death by a thousand cuts.

I don't blame the Palestinians for fighting on. If someone was stealing my land I would fight, too. In the long term, by refusing a just two-state solution, Israel may eventually gain all of Palestine but it will have done its people no favor by continuing what will be the very drawn out process of exterminating the remainder of the Palestinians. And it will not be a final solution. This process will just fan the flames of antisemitism world-wide. The Jews will will be seen as no better than the Nazis who tried to exterminate them and they will have made themselves so hated that it will be as if the Holocaust had never happened.

Will it have been worth it? I guess that will depend on how long America and NATO remain able to protect Israel against the hatred as the geopolitical situation evolves.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 11th, 2024, 4:12 pm Hamas started it and they could end it any time. All they have to do is release the hostages. The current situation is Hamas's choice. The more the west encourages Hamas, the more they feel they are winning, and their decision to keep the hostages and provoke Israel into making mistakes is vindicated. The widespread support for Hamas in the west just shows the world that, if you have a problem, just start a war with someone stronger than you and university-trained Marxists will rally to your side.

The conflict between Israel and Palestine didn't start on Oct 7. I don't condone Hamas' actions on Oct 7, but understand how they were provoked.
Israel's continued settlement expansion in the West Bank is considered illegal under international law,
Israeli security forces conduct raids and operations in the West Bank and, Gaza resulting in civilian casualties, significant property damage, and the imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians without charges.
The Israeli-Egyptian blockade of Gaza restricts the movement of goods and people in and out of Gaza not unlike a prison.
Israel impedes Palestinian access to Jerusalem's holy sites, especially the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound.
So no Hamas didn't start this problem, it's been going on for decades. It isn't a war, throwing rocks at tanks isn't a war. Hamas doesnt have American technologies at their disposal, no tanks or artillery, no jets and drones with million dollar missiles. The lopsided kill count should be a clue.

Is it wise to strike back at the big bully? Probably not, but how long do you let them beat on you before you strike back?

It is wishful thinking to believe that just releasing the hostages will stop Israel from their quest to rid Palestine of Palestinians. Israel says that Hamas will have to surrender to stop the genocide. But how would that work? How would Israel ever be satisfied that all Hamas had surrendered, especially when they claim that all Gaza Palestinians are Hamas?

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑April 12th, 2024, 10:06 am
That said, Hamas was crazy to think that their latest attack and the taking of hostages would change anything. They kicked an own goal that just gave Netanyahu the excuse he wanted to continue the extermination and expulsion of the Palestinians from their land. Madness!

I agree that harming civilians was not smart on their part and I wonder if maybe they got some ill advised help in the planning.
I believe that Israel (Bibi) welcomed the attack. With the technology the US has with us taxpayers giving them a blank check, I suspect that the US/Israel knew exactly when and where the attack would occur and the IDF was reassigned to other areas. The attack gave Bibi the justification he wanted to proceed with killing Palestinian citizens and razing their buildings and infrastructure.
Hamas should give up the hostages before they are killed by Israel. The hostages aren't doing Hama any good, Bibi don't want them released.

Mo_reese wrote: ↑April 12th, 2024, 11:21 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 11th, 2024, 4:12 pm Hamas started it and they could end it any time. All they have to do is release the hostages. The current situation is Hamas's choice. The more the west encourages Hamas, the more they feel they are winning, and their decision to keep the hostages and provoke Israel into making mistakes is vindicated. The widespread support for Hamas in the west just shows the world that, if you have a problem, just start a war with someone stronger than you and university-trained Marxists will rally to your side.

The conflict between Israel and Palestine didn't start on Oct 7. I don't condone Hamas' actions on Oct 7, but understand how they were provoked.
Israel's continued settlement expansion in the West Bank is considered illegal under international law,
Israeli security forces conduct raids and operations in the West Bank and, Gaza resulting in civilian casualties, significant property damage, and the imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians without charges.

In the meantime, China is expanding vis settlements into Russia, Bhutan, Nepal and India, and it is also invading Filipino and Vietnamese maritime territory. How many of these nations are sending missiles into China? Why are they not sending missiles into China? Because they are not insane.

Hamas leaders gratuitously rained this disaster on to the Palestinian people while they resided in luxury with their ill-gotten billions, stolen from aid packages, in safe countries. As far as they are concerned, Hamas is winning this war because so many western dupes are naively supporting them over their own allies. To them, the people housed in their fake hospitals are expendable pawns. All they have to do is release the hostages but the western media does not like to point that out because it contradicts their university-trained Marxist narrative ... The Oppressor is Always Wong ... The Oppressed Need Take No Responsibility for their Actions because It Is Always the Oppressor's Fault.

Neither side is perfect but it's clear that only one side pushes gay people off roofs, steals the people's aid money for their own gain, whose culture is twisted entirely toward hatred that is taught in (UN!) schools, and one side that routinely makes rash military decisions.

If this is antisemitic...
"Israel is an apartheid state, since it favours one ethnicity for colonisation against the local indigenous populations who are oppressed and denied basic rights."
Then truth is antisemitic.

If you want to know the lies told by Israel to justify the continued genocide then spend a few minute sith DDN.
Find DDN on Twitter

"What really Happened on Octomer 7 @pularjs

Double Down News Apr 11

If you want to beleive the lies that babies were over cooked or beheaded then keep your head in the sand

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 12th, 2024, 6:12 pm

Mo_reese wrote: ↑April 12th, 2024, 11:21 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 11th, 2024, 4:12 pm Hamas started it and they could end it any time. All they have to do is release the hostages. The current situation is Hamas's choice. The more the west encourages Hamas, the more they feel they are winning, and their decision to keep the hostages and provoke Israel into making mistakes is vindicated. The widespread support for Hamas in the west just shows the world that, if you have a problem, just start a war with someone stronger than you and university-trained Marxists will rally to your side.

The conflict between Israel and Palestine didn't start on Oct 7. I don't condone Hamas' actions on Oct 7, but understand how they were provoked.
Israel's continued settlement expansion in the West Bank is considered illegal under international law,
Israeli security forces conduct raids and operations in the West Bank and, Gaza resulting in civilian casualties, significant property damage, and the imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians without charges.

In the meantime, China is expanding vis settlements into Russia, Bhutan, Nepal and India,

Whatabout ery..
If China can do it then Israel's genocide is okay?

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 14th, 2024, 2:52 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 12th, 2024, 6:12 pm

Mo_reese wrote: ↑April 12th, 2024, 11:21 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 11th, 2024, 4:12 pm Hamas started it and they could end it any time. All they have to do is release the hostages. The current situation is Hamas's choice. The more the west encourages Hamas, the more they feel they are winning, and their decision to keep the hostages and provoke Israel into making mistakes is vindicated. The widespread support for Hamas in the west just shows the world that, if you have a problem, just start a war with someone stronger than you and university-trained Marxists will rally to your side.

The conflict between Israel and Palestine didn't start on Oct 7. I don't condone Hamas' actions on Oct 7, but understand how they were provoked.
Israel's continued settlement expansion in the West Bank is considered illegal under international law,
Israeli security forces conduct raids and operations in the West Bank and, Gaza resulting in civilian casualties, significant property damage, and the imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians without charges.

In the meantime, China is expanding vis settlements into Russia, Bhutan, Nepal and India,

Whatabout ery..
If China can do it then Israel's genocide is okay?

More naive use of the word genocide. Given that Palestine's population has increased faster than Israel's, the use of "genocide" is a propaganda tool, which makes you part of a propaganda movement to aid an Islamic terrorist group.

As far as the corrupt UN is concerned, everything Israel does is wrong, and everything that China does is just fine.

And none of you give a damn about the Sudanese, who have been doing it much harder than the Palestinians for many years. Why? Marxism. Since the Sudanese (actual) genocide is not perpetrated by Jews or Whites, those influenced by Marxist notions of Oppressor and Oppressed do not care.

Over-focus on Israel at the expense of other states behaving questionably is indeed anti-Semitism, and it is clearly rife on this board.