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Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 4th, 2021, 11:14 am
by SteveKlinko
I would like to emphasize the reason that all current Scientific (or even non Scientific) theories of Consciousness fail. The reason is, Ironically, that no theory of Consciousness actually Explains Consciousness, and especially Conscious Experience. But Consciousness is nothing without Conscious Experience. There is no generalized Consciousness concept. There is always only Conscious Experience. If the theory has nothing to say about Conscious Experience then the theory has nothing to say about Consciousness. I suspect that the people who push these theories don't even know what the Consciousness thing is, that they are talking about. They never address the specificity of any particular Conscious Experience. The Hard Problem of Conscious Experience has not been solved, even incrementally, by any of these theories. I have not gotten any feedback on how any of the so called Theories of Consciousness can Explain things like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Salty Taste, the Smell of Bleach, or the Touch of a Rough Surface. I'm still waiting. Maybe I'm missing something.

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 4th, 2021, 11:23 am
by Pattern-chaser
SteveKlinko wrote: December 4th, 2021, 11:14 am I would like to emphasize the reason that all current Scientific (or even non Scientific) theories of Consciousness fail.
Again? I think everyone contributing to this thread has a clear understanding of the points you make ... and re-make. 👍

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 4th, 2021, 11:26 am
by SteveKlinko
Pattern-chaser wrote: December 4th, 2021, 11:23 am
SteveKlinko wrote: December 4th, 2021, 11:14 am I would like to emphasize the reason that all current Scientific (or even non Scientific) theories of Consciousness fail.
Again? I think everyone contributing to this thread has a clear understanding of the points you make ... and re-make. 👍
Just making sure.

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 4th, 2021, 1:04 pm
by Consul
SteveKlinko wrote: December 4th, 2021, 9:26 am
Consul wrote: December 4th, 2021, 2:49 am"The thing that is in your mind" may well be a subjective display of neuroelectric fireworks!
There is Neuroelectric Fireworks and there is Conscious Experience. It is a Speculation to say they are the same thing. There certainly is no chain of Logic that gets you to that conclusion. But, of course, maybe someday someone will come up with a chain of Logic.
The truth of reductive materialism (or any other metaphysical position regarding the mind-body problem) isn't deductively or inductively inferable from the empirical facts concerning psychophysical correlations; but there is yet another, however weaker type of logic: abduction. My contention is that reductive materialism (the materialist mind-brain identity theory) provides the best, most plausible ontological explanation of the psychophyiscal correlations in the light of our scientific knowledge of the world and philosophical considerations based on it.

"In a deductively valid inference, it is impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. In an inductively strong inference, it is improbable (to some degree) that the conclusion is false given that the premises are true. In an abductively weighty inference, it is implausible that the premises are true and the conclusion is false. The abductive type of inference tends to be the weakest of the three kinds."

(Walton, Douglas N. "Abductive, Presumptive and Plausible Arguments." Informal Logic 21/2 (2001): 141-169. p. 143)

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 4th, 2021, 1:16 pm
by SteveKlinko
Consul wrote: December 4th, 2021, 1:04 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: December 4th, 2021, 9:26 am
Consul wrote: December 4th, 2021, 2:49 am"The thing that is in your mind" may well be a subjective display of neuroelectric fireworks!
There is Neuroelectric Fireworks and there is Conscious Experience. It is a Speculation to say they are the same thing. There certainly is no chain of Logic that gets you to that conclusion. But, of course, maybe someday someone will come up with a chain of Logic.
The truth of reductive materialism (or any other metaphysical position regarding the mind-body problem) isn't deductively or inductively inferable from the empirical facts concerning psychophysical correlations; but there is yet another, however weaker type of logic: abduction. My contention is that reductive materialism (the materialist mind-brain identity theory) provides the best, most plausible ontological explanation of the psychophyiscal correlations in the light of our scientific knowledge of the world and philosophical considerations based on it.

"In a deductively valid inference, it is impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. In an inductively strong inference, it is improbable (to some degree) that the conclusion is false given that the premises are true. In an abductively weighty inference, it is implausible that the premises are true and the conclusion is false. The abductive type of inference tends to be the weakest of the three kinds."

(Walton, Douglas N. "Abductive, Presumptive and Plausible Arguments." Informal Logic 21/2 (2001): 141-169. p. 143)
Deductive, Inductive, or Abductive, it is still a Speculation and is not an Explanation.

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 4th, 2021, 3:55 pm
by Consul
SteveKlinko wrote: December 4th, 2021, 1:16 pmDeductive, Inductive, or Abductive, it is still a Speculation and is not an Explanation.
If "speculation" means "conjecture" or "surmise", then sound deductive or inductive arguments are non-speculative!
(An argument is sound if and only if it is logically valid and its premises are true.)

All metaphysical hypotheses or theories are more or less speculative or conjectural (and so are some physical theories too); but reductive materialism does give a general ontological explanation of why all mental/experiential events are correlated with neural events: because for all mental/experiential events there is some neural event with which they are identical. I think that is the best ontological explanation!
For as soon as you step into the murky waters of psychological nonreductionism and dualism, you'll get into deep trouble with natural science and the laws of physics. For example, the only way for nonreductive (emergent) materialism to avoid that trouble is to (implausibly) embrace epiphenomenalism about mental phenomena.

(In my view, ontological property emergentism is generally incoherent; so emergent materialism doesn't have to include epiphenomenalism in order for it to become incredible.)

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 4th, 2021, 11:02 pm
by UniversalAlien
"Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail"

1. Consciousness would have to be defined exactly - And be a thing that could be defined exactly

2. Consciousness would then have to be proven to exist

3. Consciousness is not a scientific term, it is a relative and imaginary concept, like concepts of mysticism

4. Science is the study of what is real, visible, touchable, or in some way shape size or form measurable
- You can do none of those things with consciousness until you first prove its existence and can measure its existence

5. Black Holes and Gravity Waves were hypotheticals that were eventually proven to be real and measurable.
- But what we have seen, as demonstrated in this discussion, is that nobody is even sure of what they are looking for
in the first place :?: - Therefor, as of now, consciousness is out of the realm of science and is in the realm of fantasy and mysticism :arrow: :idea:

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 5th, 2021, 8:30 am
by Pattern-chaser
SteveKlinko wrote: December 4th, 2021, 1:16 pmDeductive, Inductive, or Abductive, it is still a Speculation and is not an Explanation.
Consul wrote: December 4th, 2021, 3:55 pm If "speculation" means "conjecture" or "surmise", then sound deductive or inductive arguments are non-speculative!
Only a deductive argument, correctly-formed using valid premises, is conclusive. All else might reasonably be described as "speculative", guesswork, uncertain, inconclusive and so on.

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 5th, 2021, 8:38 am
by Pattern-chaser
Consul wrote: December 4th, 2021, 3:55 pm If "speculation" means "conjecture" or "surmise", then sound deductive or inductive arguments are non-speculative!
From the Stanford article on Abduction, that you linked:
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy wrote:Abduction is normally thought of as being one of three major types of inference, the other two being deduction and induction. The distinction between deduction, on the one hand, and induction and abduction, on the other hand, corresponds to the distinction between necessary and non-necessary inferences. In deductive inferences, what is inferred is necessarily true if the premises from which it is inferred are true; that is, the truth of the premises guarantees the truth of the conclusion.
This says what I said in my last post, but worded better, and with the authority of Stanford behind it. 😉

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 5th, 2021, 11:34 am
by SteveKlinko
Consul wrote: December 4th, 2021, 3:55 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: December 4th, 2021, 1:16 pmDeductive, Inductive, or Abductive, it is still a Speculation and is not an Explanation.
If "speculation" means "conjecture" or "surmise", then sound deductive or inductive arguments are non-speculative!
(An argument is sound if and only if it is logically valid and its premises are true.)

All metaphysical hypotheses or theories are more or less speculative or conjectural (and so are some physical theories too); but reductive materialism does give a general ontological explanation of why all mental/experiential events are correlated with neural events: because for all mental/experiential events there is some neural event with which they are identical. I think that is the best ontological explanation!
For as soon as you step into the murky waters of psychological nonreductionism and dualism, you'll get into deep trouble with natural science and the laws of physics. For example, the only way for nonreductive (emergent) materialism to avoid that trouble is to (implausibly) embrace epiphenomenalism about mental phenomena.

(In my view, ontological property emergentism is generally incoherent; so emergent materialism doesn't have to include epiphenomenalism in order for it to become incredible.)
But the Connectist view presents a whole new of understanding these things:

The Scientific and Physicalist view is that Consciousness is somehow located in the Neurons or is an Emergent Property of Neural Activity. It is a reasonable assumption given that Conscious Activity is Correlated with Neural Activity. But Science has no Theory, Hypothesis, or even a Speculation about how Consciousness could be in the Neurons or an Emergent Property. Science has not been able to show for example, how something like the Experience of Redness is some kind of effect of Neural Activity. In fact, the more you think about the Redness Experience and then think about Neural Activity, the less likely it seems that the Redness Experience is actually some sort of Neural Activity. Science has tried in vain for a hundred years to figure this out. If the Experience of Redness actually was in the Neurons, Science would have had a lot to say about it by now. Something has got to be wrong with their perspective on the problem.

The Inter Mind Model (IMM) can accommodate Consciousness as being in the Neurons or an Emergent Property, but it can also accommodate other concepts of Consciousness. The IMM is structurally a Connection Model, in the sense that the Physical Mind (PM) is connected to the Inter Mind (IM) which is connected to the Conscious Mind (CM). These Connections might be conceptual where all three Minds are actually in the Neurons or an Emergent Property. But these Connections might have more reality to them where the PM, the IM, and the CM are separate things. I will Speculate that the situation is more like the latter than the former. In that case the PM, which is in Physical Space (PSp), uses the IM to create a Connection to the CM, which is in Conscious Space (CSp). The important perspective change here is that the PM is Connected to the CM, rather than assuming that the PM contains the CM as part of the PM. This allows the CM to be a thing in itself existing in it’s own CSp. This is Connectism.

The inability of Science to solve the problem of Consciousness is the main driver for looking at other perspectives. Insisting that Consciousness is in the Neurons or is just some artifact of Neural Activity is getting us nowhere. Not only is Science unable to Explain Consciousness as Neural Activity, it is also unable to provide the first clue as to what something like the Experience of Redness actually is. Things like Redness, the Standard A Tone, and the Salty Taste, are Conscious Experiences. These kinds of Conscious Experiences are some sort of Phenomena that exist in the Reality of the Manifest Universe, but they are in a Category of Phenomena that Science cannot yet explain. It is therefore Sensible and Logical to Speculate a place for them to exist. This of Course is CSp.

I would like to introduce the term Connectism, to identify a new Philosophical concept. Connectism provides a new and refreshing Connection Perspective with respect to Conscious Experience. With proper usage you would say that you are a Connectist because of your Connectist views on Connectism. Connectism seems to be similar to Dualism, but it is different from Dualism because the Dualist does not emphasize the Connection aspect of the PM to the CM. The IM is the central connecting component within Connectism. The PM is Connected to the IM and the IM is Connected to the CM. So Connectism is actually a Triple Mind perspective, in contrast with the Double Mind perspective of Dualism. The IM looms large within Connectism but is completely absent in Dualism. Connectism is categorically not the same thing as Dualism.

At the developmental level we now will have the PM developing in PSp and a separate CM developing in CSp. There is also an IM which is developing the Connections between the PM and the CM. The CM is no longer trapped in the PM which is in PSp. The CM now has a separate development and existence in CSp. Maybe an IM, along with a CM, inhabits and uses a PM from conception. The IM and CM grow as a particular PM grows. First there is only one Neuron, then there are two, then three, and four, and so on until a fully formed PM, IM, and CM are produced. Note that maybe the IM will only need to connect with the Cortical Areas on the surface of the PM. With regard to memory, it is thought that it is possible that the recognition of objects and faces comes down to one Neuron firing. With this theory, the IM must know what a particular Neuron means when it fires in order to send a feeling of Recognition to a CM. On the other hand, if Memory has a more distributed configuration among many Neurons involving feedback and feedforward connections, then the IM will need to interpret the Memory using that more complicated activity.

Could an IM attach to a fully formed PM and just start using it? Or does an IM need to grow as a PM grows in order to properly use it? I will speculate that there probably is a developmental aspect involved in PM, IM, and CM connections. The act of growing from a single Neuron might be absolutely necessary for an IM and CM to properly connect. The IM might eventually be in contact with every Neuron in the PM. Maybe the only way an IM can be in control of billions of Neurons is if, as the PM slowly develops, the IM learns how to use each Neuron. It is not known how the IM learns the meaning of any particular Neuron that is firing. The PM and the IM might have built in mechanisms that facilitate the interconnection process. Maybe individual types of Neurons have some sort of chemical signatures that the IM can read in order to know what Conscious Experiences to produce. This seems to predict that the IM must have some innate ability to operate with Neurons.

We can make some statements about things that are in the CM and things that are in the PM. For example, the CM is where the Experiences of Redness, the Standard A Tone, and the Salty Taste are located. The CM is also where the Conscious Self is located. Examples of things that are located in the PM are Memory, Pattern Recognition, Eye Convergence/Tracking, and Balance.

Separating the CM from the PM allows a whole new Perspective for understanding various operational aspects of Consciousness. Some previous experimental deductions and conclusions about Consciousness may have to be overturned when using this new Perspective. For example, this separation provides a new way of understanding the effect of Anesthesia. With the old Perspective the reasoning was like this: The Neural Activity was halted and Consciousness seemed to also be halted, so therefore Consciousness must be in the Neurons. With the new Perspective the reasoning would be: The Neural Activity was halted and Consciousness seemed to be halted, so therefore the Connection must have been interrupted. With this new Perspective, Consciousness itself was not halted but rather the Connection from the PM to the CM was interrupted. We don't know what the CM does during an interruption. But since Anesthesia can halt Memory operations, the PM will not have been able to save any Memories of the interruption, that could be accessed by the CM after the Connection is reestablished.

The old assumptions about how PM injuries affect Consciousness will have new interpretations using the Connection Perspective. After a PM injury, the Connections between the PM and the CM can be disrupted. Memories may be difficult to retrieve, Volitional control of the body may become erratic, and the Personality might even be changed. But these are PM degradations and not CM degradations. The CM will not be affected because the CM is connected through the IM to the PM. The IM protects and buffers the CM from PM damages. The CM will effectively be Connected to something different after a PM injury. The CM will try to do the best it can with whatever PM it is Connected to, regardless of the PM degenerations that exist.

This separation of CM from PM also presents a new Perspective for thinking about the Sub-Conscious Mind versus the CM. It is logical to speculate that the Sub-Conscious Mind is completely implemented in the PM. Many of the actions we do everyday are controlled by Sub-Conscious Brain Programs that run in the background, out of view of our Conscious awareness. The IM needs to make the Processing decisions for which of the Activities in the PM should be Translated into Conscious Experiences. The IM implements the Binding Processing necessary to create a usable Conscious Experience of the External world for the CM to operate in. It would be very confusing and inefficient if the IM had to Translate all Neural Activity, including the Background Brain Programs, into Conscious Experiences. There has always been an intuition that there was a separate Conscious Mind and Sub-Conscious Mind. It is now easy to see how this PM to CM separation logically and naturally predicts a Sub-Conscious Mind concept separate from the CM.

Does the shape of the Brain say anything about the Connection Perspective? Interconnecting axons take up the bulk of the space inside the Brain (the white matter). The Conscious Experience part of the Brain consists of a thin layer of Neurons on the outer surface of the Brain (the gray matter). This is of course the Cortex. All Experience seems to to be correlated with Neural Activity in specific Areas of the Cortex. Maybe it is easier for the IM to Monitor and Connect to the Brain given that kind of surface configuration. Of course there are some large folds to the cortex, but it is essentially a surface structure. When you think about all those distinct functional Experiential Areas that make up the Cortex, it just looks like it must be some kind of Interface to some next Processing stage. But this is just a speculation. The only explanation from Brain Physiology is that it is a surface on the exterior of the Brain in order to promote cooling. But what if there is more to it than that?

It is time for Science to think more outside the Box with regard to Consciousness, and hopefully this Connection Perspective will inspire Research in new directions that might someday solve the Problem of Consciousness.

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 5th, 2021, 11:41 am
by SteveKlinko
UniversalAlien wrote: December 4th, 2021, 11:02 pm "Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail"

1. Consciousness would have to be defined exactly - And be a thing that could be defined exactly

2. Consciousness would then have to be proven to exist

3. Consciousness is not a scientific term, it is a relative and imaginary concept, like concepts of mysticism

4. Science is the study of what is real, visible, touchable, or in some way shape size or form measurable
- You can do none of those things with consciousness until you first prove its existence and can measure its existence

5. Black Holes and Gravity Waves were hypotheticals that were eventually proven to be real and measurable.
- But what we have seen, as demonstrated in this discussion, is that nobody is even sure of what they are looking for
in the first place :?: - Therefor, as of now, consciousness is out of the realm of science and is in the realm of fantasy and mysticism :arrow: :idea:
Specifically, the Conscious Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, and the Touch of a Rough Surface, are all things that Exist in the Manifest Universe. It is completely not Scientific to dismiss these things, just because Science cannot deal with them at this point in time.

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 5th, 2021, 2:19 pm
by Papus79
Picking through the last seven or eight pages since I last checked - I think we're down to a place where the best science can do is triage. In some sense we do need to remember that removals from consideration, such as in engineering applications of physicalism, are primarily practical and range-bound but then things can indeed happen later where you do perhaps consider a prior hypothesis malformed based on the knowledge at that time whereas it may not have been wrong globally and a 2.0 or even 3.0 of that idea might be applicable (ie. science rules out specifics much more than generalities).

I really think we have way too many moves to make before we can actually explain what consciousness is at its base. It seems like all of the ideas outlined in the OP are too rough, too absolute. The universe doesn't particularly care what we need for memory aids or what a proposal needs to do in order to distinguish itself enough from the other proposals in order to get its own grant funding. It's doing what it's doing.

There was also some suggestion earlier about the external world being an illusion - for what I've followed of Donald Hoffman's ideas the idea I get, at least in his case, is that the virtuality of it (such as a physical moon not existing) is that the moon that actually exists, ie. not a 3-D model in space, does exist, but our space-time representation of it gets garbage collected, ie. that the physical world as we experience is to such a degree a thumb-nailed map of it that it bears no relation. Also, I don't know if what I'm about to say is quite correct but the way of thinking at least approaches this - it's considering the possibility that we're having problems with interpreting the double-slit experiment because we're measuring the place where quantum particles cross over from their actual state of existence into our own hallucination of reality, in which case the world of 3D space-time as we interpret it takes over and simulates a collapse that never actually took place outside of our own five-sensory UI's.

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 5th, 2021, 2:21 pm
by Papus79
Papus79 wrote: December 5th, 2021, 2:19 pm I really think we have way too many moves to make before we can actually explain what consciousness is at its base. It seems like all of the ideas outlined in the OP are too rough, too absolute. The universe doesn't particularly care what we need for memory aids or what a proposal needs to do in order to distinguish itself enough from the other proposals in order to get its own grant funding. It's doing what it's doing.
Adding a sentence that got lost in the shuffle - we still need all of these ideas for triage purposes (something I think most of us if not all agree on). I wouldn't discount them, I also wouldn't claim that they can serve other purposes - at least at this time - other than triage.

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 5th, 2021, 4:55 pm
by Consul
Pattern-chaser wrote: December 5th, 2021, 8:38 am
Consul wrote: December 4th, 2021, 3:55 pm If "speculation" means "conjecture" or "surmise", then sound deductive or inductive arguments are non-speculative!
From the Stanford article on Abduction, that you linked:
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy wrote:Abduction is normally thought of as being one of three major types of inference, the other two being deduction and induction. The distinction between deduction, on the one hand, and induction and abduction, on the other hand, corresponds to the distinction between necessary and non-necessary inferences. In deductive inferences, what is inferred is necessarily true if the premises from which it is inferred are true; that is, the truth of the premises guarantees the truth of the conclusion.
This says what I said in my last post, but worded better, and with the authority of Stanford behind it.
Yes, deduction is the only sort of inference where given the truth of the premises, the probability that the conclusion is true is 1, which means that its truth is logically certain. There is no logical certainty in the case of induction or abduction. Inductive reasoning is probable reasoning; but if an inductive conclusion is true with a very high degree of probability, I wouldn't call it speculative—as opposed to abductive conclusions, where there is no objectively quantifiable probabilistic relationship between the premises and the conclusion.

QUOTE>
"In a deductively valid inference, it is impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. In an inductively strong inference, it is improbable (to some degree) that the conclusion is false given that the premises are true. In an abductively weighty inference, it is implausible that the premises are true and the conclusion is false. The abductive type of inference tends to be the weakest of the three kinds. A conclusion drawn by abductive inference is an intelligent guess. But it is still a guess, because it is tied to an incomplete body of evidence. As new evidence comes in, the guess could be shown to be wrong. Logicians have tended to be not very welcoming in allowing abductive inference as part of logic, because logic is supposed to be an exact science, and abductive inference appears to be inexact. Certainly it is not final. It can be described as a form of guessing. It is subject to being overturned by further evidence in a case. It would seem to be more fallible and conjectural than the other two types of inference." (p. 143)

"Plausible. To say something is plausible means that it seems to be true. A more specific definition was proposed by Carneades of Cyrene. According to this definition, a proposition is plausible if it seems to be true, and (even more plausible) if it is consistent with other propositions that seem to be true, and (even more plausible) if it is tested, and passes the test. A plausible inference is one that can be drawn from the given apparent facts in a case suggesting a particular conclusion that seems to be true. Both a proposition and its negation can be plausible, as the ancient legal case of the stronger and the weaker man showed." (p. 166)

(Walton, Douglas N. "Abductive, Presumptive and Plausible Arguments." Informal Logic 21/2 (2001): 141–169.)

———

"Prior probabilities represent the degree to which a hypothesis H_i is supported by non-evidential plausibility considerations, prior to taking the evidence into account. The notion of priority for prior probabilities isn’t temporal – it might make better sense to call them non-evidential probabilities. Though non-evidential, the plausibility considerations that inform values for priors may not be purely a priori. They may include both conceptual and broadly empirical considerations not captured by the likelihoods.

Because plausibility assessments are usually less objective than likelihoods, critics sometimes brand priors as merely subjective, and take their role in the evaluation of hypotheses to be highly problematic. But plausibility assessments often play a crucial role in the sciences, especially when evidence is insufficient to distinguish among some alternative hypotheses. Furthermore, the epithet ‘merely subjective’ is unwarranted. Plausibility assessments are often backed by extensive arguments that draw on forceful conceptual and empirical considerations not captured by likelihoods. That’s the epistemic role of the thought experiment, for example.

Indeed, we often have good reasons, besides the evidence, to strongly reject some logically possible alternatives as just too implausible, or as, at least, much less plausible than better conceived candidates. In evaluating hypotheses, we often bring such considerations to bear, at least implicitly. For, given any hypothesis, logicians can always cook up numerous alternatives that agree with it on all the evidence available thus far. Any reasonable scientist will reject most such inventions immediately, because they look ad hoc, contrived or plain foolish. Such reasons for rejection appeal to neither purely logical characteristics of these hypotheses, nor to evidence. All such reasons are ‘mere’ plausibility assessments, not part of the evidential likelihoods.

Prior plausibilities are ‘subjective’ in the sense that scientists may disagree on the relative merits of plausibility arguments, and so disagree on the values for priors. Furthermore, the plausibility of a hypothesis is usually somewhat vague or imprecise. So it’s reasonable to represent priors by an interval of values, a plausibility range, rather than by specific numbers. …The main point is that plausibility assessments in the sciences are far from mere subjective whims. They play an important role in the epistemology of the sciences. So it’s a virtue of Bayesian confirmation theory that it provides a place for such assessments to figure into the logic of hypothesis evaluation."

(Hawthorne, James. "Bayesian Confirmation Theory." In The Continuum Companion to the Philosophy of Science, edited by Steven French and Juha Saatsi, 197-217. London: Continuum, 2011. pp. 203-4)
<QUOTE

Unfortunately:

QUOTE>
"[P]lausibility is very much in the eye of the beholder[.]"

(Lowe, E. J. Personal Agency: The Metaphysics of Mind and Action. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2008. p. 77)
<QUOTE

Re: Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail

Posted: December 6th, 2021, 8:35 am
by SteveKlinko
Papus79 wrote: December 5th, 2021, 2:21 pm
Papus79 wrote: December 5th, 2021, 2:19 pm I really think we have way too many moves to make before we can actually explain what consciousness is at its base. It seems like all of the ideas outlined in the OP are too rough, too absolute. The universe doesn't particularly care what we need for memory aids or what a proposal needs to do in order to distinguish itself enough from the other proposals in order to get its own grant funding. It's doing what it's doing.
Adding a sentence that got lost in the shuffle - we still need all of these ideas for triage purposes (something I think most of us if not all agree on). I wouldn't discount them, I also wouldn't claim that they can serve other purposes - at least at this time - other than triage.
Yes, Triage is a good way to look at it. We can put more time into the Theory that is the least Sick or Injured. But maybe the sickest Theory right now will be the winner someday. But in reality all Theories are still on the table when it comes to Explaining Conscious Experience.

I have wondered about the Grant Funding too. These Grants would probably dry up if the granting authorities found out that the Theories were not really Explaining the thing they are supposed to Explain (Conscious Experience).