Philosophy Discussion Forums

Meleagar, do you believe that there are other agents of change besides yourself?

If so how do you decide for yourself which agents are more powerful agents than yourself?(Presumably you are able to decide for yourself that you will get out of a burning building?)

Belinda wrote:Meleagar, do you believe that there are other agents of change besides yourself?

If so how do you decide for yourself which agents are more powerful agents than yourself?(Presumably you are able to decide for yourself that you will get out of a burning building?)

There is no more powerful agent of creation in my experience than me, and from what info I have from others who appear to have free will the same is true in their experience.

How can you possibly remain alive,Meleagar, since you dont believe in other agents of change, apart from the presumably few who have what you call free will?I suppose you can reason with those few. How can you reason with me who has no autonomy of the sort that you claim to have?

Belinda wrote:How can you possibly remain alive,Meleagar, since you dont believe in other agents of change, apart from the presumably few who have what you call free will?I suppose you can reason with those few. How can you reason with me who has no autonomy of the sort that you claim to have?

I'm not sure what you think the difficulty would be in staying alive in a world largely populated by automatons.

I'm not reasoning with you. I'm reasoning and you're autoresponding to keywords and phrases, largely with non-sequiter and irrational phrases and statements, IMO. It's up to me to deliberately find a way to interpret such statements in ways that challenge me to explore my philosophy and nature.

The only person I'm reasoning with here is myself; as far as I can tell, I'm the only person here who even claims to have true free will, so I'm the only person here capable of actual reasoning. Everyone else is just autoresponding to keywords and phrases based on the physical programming of their particular history of physics/biology.

Can we not say that most of us have the same 'set' of tools, and the path our lives take will determine which tools we use, or use most often, and in the majoral use of certain tools we become a 'tradesman' unto them and therefore see and act in a manner best suited for the tools we use most, and are most skilled at using?

I'm not sure what you think the difficulty would be in staying alive in a world largely populated by automatons.

Meleagar, the difficulty is that automata and free will persons may both act contrary to what you want. For instance, legislators who say that you must drive on the right side of the road are disobeyed at your peril.The legislators may be fre will persons or automata, but the effect of any free will individual's disobeying them is the same. This is only one of the multitudinous occasions when we all, free will notwithstanding, have to obey what is the case.

Belinda wrote: Meleagar, the difficulty is that automata and free will persons may both act contrary to what you want. For instance, legislators who say that you must drive on the right side of the road are disobeyed at your peril.The legislators may be fre will persons or automata, but the effect of any free will individual's disobeying them is the same. This is only one of the multitudinous occasions when we all, free will notwithstanding, have to obey what is the case.

Other entities, whether they have free will or not, cannot bring to my experience anything which I do not authorize.

"Other entities, whether they have free will or not, cannot bring to my experience anything which I do not authorize."

Do you remember authorizing your own birth? If not, you are deluding yourself.

Felix wrote:"Other entities, whether they have free will or not, cannot bring to my experience anything which I do not authorize."

Do you remember authorizing your own birth? If not, you are deluding yourself.

Well, if you say so. Fortunately, it doesn't matter if I am (deluding myself) or not, as long as the result is an enjoyable life.

I'm sorry, that was a rather flip response... actually, I'm not sure what you meant by "authorize" in the sentence: "Other entities, whether they have free will or not, cannot bring to my experience anything which I do not authorize." Care to clarify that?

Meleagar wrote:

Felix wrote:"Other entities, whether they have free will or not, cannot bring to my experience anything which I do not authorize."

Do you remember authorizing your own birth? If not, you are deluding yourself.

Well, if you say so. Fortunately, it doesn't matter if I am (deluding myself) or not, as long as the result is an enjoyable life.

Mel, Felix actually asked a reasonable question and pointed to a valid example. Your enjoyable life is not under your personal control anyhow, it depends on the other "entities" which may or may not have this undefined "free will" you mention.

Your life may suddenly stop being enjoyable if your body is, say, hit by some disease - and the bugs causing a disease have no free will, no matter how you define it. Alternatively you can be mugged and beaten in the most unexpected moment; or your photo would be once recognised by some software as a face of a terrorist, and you can find yourself water-boarded... or a neighbour's dog can maul you... or you can lose income... There is plenty of ways to stop life being enjoyable, and we are not in control of them all. Neither the attempts to delude yourself would succeed in many cases, unless you have an ability to reach nirvana even on a torture table.

Felix wrote:I'm sorry, that was a rather flip response... actually, I'm not sure what you meant by "authorize" in the sentence: "Other entities, whether they have free will or not, cannot bring to my experience anything which I do not authorize." Care to clarify that?

It is my provisional opinion that I create everything I experience.

Marabod wrote:Your enjoyable life is not under your personal control anyhow, it depends on the other "entities" which may or may not have this undefined "free will" you mention.

I never claimed I controlled my experience; I create it. These are two differen things.

Neither the attempts to delude yourself would succeed in many cases, unless you have an ability to reach nirvana even on a torture table.

What would be the point of my creating myself on a torture table if I had no intention of experiencing the torture?

As I have already stated, it doesn't mattter to me if I'm deluding myself or not, as long as it works. If my provisional opinons at any time are not providing me with an enjoyable experience, then I'll ditch them and see if I can find more enjoyable perspectives.

I'm pretty creative and imaginative. I can probably come up with a pretty enjoyable story to tell on the torture table .. like, maybe yellling .. "FRRREEEEEEEEDOMM!!"

Meleagar wrote:

Marabod wrote:Your enjoyable life is not under your personal control anyhow, it depends on the other "entities" which may or may not have this undefined "free will" you mention.

I never claimed I controlled my experience; I create it. These are two differen things.

Neither the attempts to delude yourself would succeed in many cases, unless you have an ability to reach nirvana even on a torture table.

What would be the point of my creating myself on a torture table if I had no intention of experiencing the torture?

As I have already stated, it doesn't mattter to me if I'm deluding myself or not, as long as it works. If my provisional opinons at any time are not providing me with an enjoyable experience, then I'll ditch them and see if I can find more enjoyable perspectives.

I'm pretty creative and imaginative. I can probably come up with a pretty enjoyable story to tell on the torture table .. like, maybe yellling .. "FRRREEEEEEEEDOMM!!"

Ahhh! So you are assuming yourself as an Image of God with the access to some divine powers, at least when it comes to your own existence! I see then... In this case you probably never read Plutarch's biography of Athenian law-maker Solon, as in it you may find the example of another person with similar approaches to life. This was Lydian king Croesus who ruled 560 to 546 BC. He considered himself the happiest man on the planet, and when Solon noted him he was wrong as he was still alive, too early to judge, he banished Solon from his palace. But pretty soon (in that same 546 BC) he was captured by the invading Persians of Cyrus the Great and placed onto a firewood to be burnt at stake - and in desperation started to pray to Solon instead of God, which actually saved him, as curious Cyrus ordered him off the fire to question him and then left alive, after appreciating Solon's wisdom.

How often have you put this ability to the test, Meleagar?
Have you been examined by medics and psychologists to establish whether or not there are objective signs of any suffering in the mind or body of Meleagar at such times as other people (automata) would experience suffering?

I can guess that you would now say you would get no pleasure from setting up such a test as it is of no interest to you to prove anything to others. After all, other free will experiencists dont need proof, and automata dont interest you.

So why do you come to a philosophy forum? We are mostly if not all automata after all.

Belinda wrote:How often have you put this ability to the test, Meleagar?
Have you been examined by medics and psychologists to establish whether or not there are objective signs of any suffering in the mind or body of Meleagar at such times as other people (automata) would experience suffering?

I can guess that you would now say you would get no pleasure from setting up such a test as it is of no interest to you to prove anything to others. After all, other free will experiencists dont need proof, and automata dont interest you.

So why do you come to a philosophy forum? We are mostly if not all automata after all.

LOL, this ability can be tested by any curious hacker, who in disguise of Mel can start asking in the technical forums and relay chats how to make a bomb. If this happens, Mel would sure tell us about the happiness of being water-boarded.