Page 14 of 37

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 3:33 am
by Consul
GaryLouisSmith wrote: June 4th, 2019, 9:08 pm Consul wrote," Right, but materialism/physicalism isn't wedded to any particular fundamental ontology. For example, it is compatible with process ontology, with trope ontology, and with nominalism about attributes (properties).

Materialism is the belief that there is an underlying material substance that endures or perdures through change. Attributes or Forms are fleeting but matter remains. Materialism is a substance philosophy. If the Nominalism and Tropism and Process philosophy you are thinking of are also substance philosophies, then, Yes, they are compatible with materialism, if not then no. I think most people on this blog believe in matter as an underlying substance. I don’t. Berkeley effectively destroyed the idea of matter as substance.
I don't think so; but, anyway, by trope (trope-field) ontology or event/process ontology I mean a basic ontology in which substances (or objects or things) are not a basic, irreducible ontological category. They are either eliminated altogether or reduced to complexes of tropes or events/processes. Modern materialism qua physicalism is compatible with those anti-substance ontologies as well.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 3:46 am
by GaryLouisSmith
Consul wrote: June 5th, 2019, 3:33 am

I don't think so; but, anyway, by trope (trope-field) ontology or event/process ontology I mean a basic ontology in which substances (or objects or things) are not a basic, irreducible ontological category. They are either eliminated altogether or reduced to complexes of tropes or events/processes. Modern materialism qua physicalism is compatible with those anti-substance ontologies as well.
You may well be right about that; I cannot say because I am not all that familiar with trope-field ontology or process ontology. I do know what a trope is, however. And I know the bundle theory of objects. I consider that nominalism. I am curious as to what you think are the basic, irreducible ontological categories. If you are interested I could tell you what I think they are. Are you a physicalist/materialist? Do you think the ontology of time can be done without substance? I personally think that time is too difficult an ontologicval problem for the human mind. Substance doesn't work, but what else there is ... beats me.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 3:47 am
by Consul
GaryLouisSmith wrote: June 4th, 2019, 9:08 pm Consul wrote," Right, but materialism/physicalism isn't wedded to any particular fundamental ontology. For example, it is compatible with process ontology, with trope ontology, and with nominalism about attributes (properties).

Materialism is the belief that there is an underlying material substance that endures or perdures through change. Attributes or Forms are fleeting but matter remains. Materialism is a substance philosophy. If the Nominalism…
As for nominalism defined as general/universal antirealism about attributes/properties, be they universals or particulars: It is compatible both with substance (thing) ontology and with process (event) ontology.
For example, Tadeusz Kotarbinski's materialistic reism (which he called pansomatism) is antirealistic about properties, but it's a version of substance ontology: Everything is a thing, and every thing is a body.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 5:00 am
by GaryLouisSmith
Consul wrote: June 5th, 2019, 3:47 am
As for nominalism defined as general/universal antirealism about attributes/properties, be they universals or particulars: It is compatible both with substance (thing) ontology and with process (event) ontology.
For example, Tadeusz Kotarbinski is antirealistic about properties, but it's a version of substance ontology: Everything is a thing, and every thing is a body.
All those things that Brentano called irrealia or entia rationis, things which he put in the mind, I say are things that exist external to the mind. Moreover, (hang on to your chair) all those “syncategorical” unthings, aka internal properties. are things I deify. I make them gods. A god is something that when you contemplate it, it becomes a frisson up your back. A shiver. Jimjam.

To tell the truth I think Brentano thought of irrealia as such. They were ghosts, Nervenkitzel. There is something enchanted about them. Metaphysical in the sense of creepy otherworldly things.

I like Kotarbinski’s word “onomatoid” which refers to all those things Brentano called irrealia. It’s a creepy word, it names ontological beasties, otherworldly unthings. Things that are not real. The logic is marvelous. Like Brentano, I think Tadeusz Katarbinski was a dark mystic. That makes him one of the good guys in my book.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 8:04 am
by Tamminen
Tamminen wrote: June 5th, 2019, 2:30 am Even Kant's "thing in itself" has an ontological relationship with the subject although we cannot say anything of it.
It seems that with the concept of 'noumenon' Kant suggested the possibility of genuine transcendence. But as I said, I think that the only rational concept of transcendence is transcendence in relation to immanence, subjectivity: transcendence of knowing, not transcendence of being.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 11:07 am
by Atla
Consul wrote: June 4th, 2019, 3:36 pm
Atla wrote: June 4th, 2019, 2:30 pmI think you don't understand what phenomenal consciousness (and the hard problem of consciousness) refer to so you may have misunderstood all my posts.
You're wrong, because I know very well both what phenomenal consciousness is and what the "hard problem" or "explanatory gap" is.
If you would, you would understand that materialism by definition can't solve the explanatory gap, as I explained. Then maybe you could get out of this trap that you are in.

That's why it is that even though we've mapped the correlations between "mental events" and "material events" to a remarkable degree, there has never been any progress on the explanatory gap.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 12:05 pm
by Consul
Atla wrote: June 5th, 2019, 11:07 amIf you would, you would understand that materialism by definition can't solve the explanatory gap, as I explained. Then maybe you could get out of this trap that you are in.
That's why it is that even though we've mapped the correlations between "mental events" and "material events" to a remarkable degree, there has never been any progress on the explanatory gap.
You're wrong insofar as it is by no means impossible by definition for (materialistic) neuroscience to solve the hard problem and to close the explanatory gap.

You're right insofar as mere psychophysical correlations aren't explanatory. We want an explanation of those correlations, so what the neuroscience of consciousness (NSC) must discover in the CNS aren't only the neural correlates of consciousness but also the constitutive neural mechanisms of consciousness. For these are explanatory, making neuroreductive explanations of conscious/experiential events/states possible.

Generally, such mechanistic explanations have both "piercing explanatory power" and "ontologically unifying power" (C. Gillett); and if they are available in NSC —which is not yet the case—, they thereby provide a scientific vindication of the materialist assumption that phenomenal consciousness or what Antti Revonsuo calls "the phenomenal level of organization in the brain" is a purely neurological or physicochemical process, such that the neural mechanisms of consciousness are justifiedly identifiable with consciousness itself: NMC = C

"According to biological realism, the primary target is to find neural phenomena in the brain that go beyond mere correlative relationships with consciousness. The relationship between the phenomenal level and the lower neural levels is not correlation but hierarchical constitution. The phenomena at the lower neural levels constitute the higher phenomenal level. Thus, what neuroscience should be looking for, it if aims at discovering ad explaining consciousness, are the constitutive mechanisms of consciousness (CMC), rather than just the NCC."

(Revonsuo, Antti. Inner Presence: Consciousness as a Biological Phenomenon. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 2006. p. 297)

"Constitutive Explanation
Constitutive explanation involves moving downward in the hierarchy and looking at a smaller-scale spatiotemporal grain or a lower level of organization. It is accomplished by showing that the phenomenon appearing as an integrated whole at one level can be decomposed to its constituent parts and their causal interactions at the immediately underlying, lower levels of description. Constitutive explanations describe the lower-level mechanisms that the entity is composed of, or whose activity, when taken as a whole, simply is the phenomenon to be explained by the description of the mechanism.

An illuminating example from biology is the cell. A single cell, taken as a whole, is an independent living unit. The constitutive explanation revealing what makes the cell tick descends to the immediately lower levels of organization where the different parts of the cell and their causal interactions are to be found.

When the same strategy is applied to the explanation of consciousness there is, first of all, the phenomenon to be explained (the explanandum): consciousness. It resides at some specific level of organization in the brain (the phenomenal level). The lower-level, nonconscious neurophysiological mechanisms, whose activity as a whole constitutes consciousness, reside at a lower level of organization in the brain.

The current search for the direct NCC appears to be the empirical approach to the constitutive explanation of consciousness. However, the notion 'neural correlates of consciousness' requires considerable clarification. The relationship between an explanandum and its lower-level constituents must be stronger than mere correlation, for correlation is not an explanatory relationship. The cell membrane, the nucleus, chromosomes, cell organelles, and other microscopic parts of the cell are not merely the biological correlates of life, but crucial microlevel constituents that explain why the whole system is alive. In the same vein, the constitutive explanation of consciousness should describe such part-whole or mereological relationships between the lower- and higher-level phenomena that make their hierarchical connection truly explanatory."


(Revonsuo, Antti. Inner Presence: Consciousness as a Biological Phenomenon. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 2006. pp. 18-20)

"Perhaps most famously, across the sciences we find explanations that explain higher-level entities (whether individuals, properties, or processes) in terms of lower-level entities that scientists take to compose them and hence these explanations use vertical relations. For example, we explain the inheritance of traits between parent organisms and their off spring using molecules taken to compose them. We explain the refractive index of a crystal using the properties and relations of the atoms that compose it. Or we explain the movement of the earth’s surface using the tectonic plates, and currents of magma, taken to compose the earth. We use the term 'compositional explanation' to refer to such explanation, though philosophers have used various names for it.(3 And we term the vertical relations that such explanations posit 'scientific composition' relations where this includes relations between individuals, properties/relations, and also processes.
(3 Other terms include 'reductive explanation', 'microstructural analyses', 'functional explanation', 'constitutive explanation', or 'mechanistic explanation'.)"


(Aizawa, Kenneth, and Carl Gillett. "Introduction: Vertical Relations in Science, Philosophy, and the World: Understanding the New Debates over Verticality." In Scientific Composition and Metaphysical Ground, edited by Kenneth Aizawa and Carl Gillett, 1-38. London: Palgrave Macmillan, 2016. p. 2)

"The Scientific Revolution was powered, at least in large part, by explanations that pierced the manifest image of common sense by explaining its level of everyday individuals, properties, and processes using qualitatively distinct, lower-level entities taken to compose them. And such explanations have now been iterated through all the levels of nature. For example, we take the corrosive action of glaciers to be explained by the movement of the ice molecules that we take to compose glaciers. We explain the motility of cells using the properties and relations of the molecules that we take to compose them. We understand why kidneys clean blood in terms of the properties and relations of the cells taken to compose them. And we could easily go on, and on, through such explanations across the sciences. Given their nature, such explanations are plausibly termed 'compositional' explanations, since they are founded around showing how lower-level entities of one kind (whether individuals, properties, or processes) compose entities of very different kinds at higher levels. Philosophers of science have used a range of other terms for compositional explanation, including 'reductive explanation', 'functional explanation', or 'mechanistic explanation', and there is a substantial body of work on the nature of such explanation, including a recent burst of research. Oddly, however, a couple of the key features of compositional explanations have not received much philosophical attention.

First, compositional explanations allow us to explain one kind of entity, such as a cell or its moving, in terms of the qualitatively different kinds of entity taken to compose it, like molecules or molecular processes of polymerization, and this hence results in what I term the 'Piercing Explanatory Power', or 'PEP', of compositional explanations. Second, we should mark that once we have successfully supplied a compositional explanation of certain entities in terms of certain others that compose them, then we have established that these entities are in some sense the same. Most importantly, a successful compositional explanation consequently shows that the mass-energy, or force, associated with a certain entity just is the mass-energy, or force, of certain component entities. This is what I will term the 'Ontologically Unifying Power', or 'OUP', of compositional explanations.

Our vast array of compositional explanations in the sciences, from fundamental physics to condensed matter physics or materials sciences, on to chemistry or biochemistry, through cytology and physiology, and now even beginning to encompass the neurosciences and psychology have had intellectual impacts in all kinds of ways. For instance, compositional explanations have been central to the centuries-old unification project in physics that has now established that there are no special forces, or energies, and that the only fundamental forces and energies are all microphysical in character. Connected to the later finding, and again driven by compositional explanations, working scientists now routinely assume the global claim that everything in nature is either identical to a microphysical entity or is composed by microphysical entities. (I will call this thesis 'physicalism' here.)"


(Gillett, Carl. "The Metaphysics of Nature, Science, and the Rules of Engagement." In Scientific Composition and Metaphysical Ground, edited by Kenneth Aizawa and Carl Gillett, 205-247. London: Palgrave Macmillan, 2016. pp. 205-7)

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 12:27 pm
by Atla
Consul wrote: June 5th, 2019, 12:05 pm You're wrong insofar as it is by no means impossible by definition for (materialistic) neuroscience to solve the hard problem and to close the explanatory gap. You're wrong insofar as it is by no means impossible by definition for (materialistic) neuroscience to solve the hard problem and to close the explanatory gap.
I'm not wrong, it's impossible by definition.
You're right insofar as mere psychophysical correlations aren't explanatory. We want an explanation of those correlations, so what the neuroscience of consciousness (NSC) must discover in the CNS aren't only the neural correlates of consciousness but also the constitutive neural mechanisms of consciousness. For these are explanatory, making neuroreductive explanations of conscious/experiential events/states possible.

Generally, such mechanistic explanations have both "piercing explanatory power" and "ontologically unifying power" (C. Gillett); and if they are available in NSC —which is not yet the case—, they thereby provide a scientific vindication of the materialist assumption that phenomenal consciousness or what Antti Revonsuo calls "the phenomenal level of organization in the brain" is a purely neurological or physicochemical process, such that the neural mechanisms of consciousness are justifiedly identifiable with consciousness itself: NMC = C

"According to biological realism, the primary target is to find neural phenomena in the brain that go beyond mere correlative relationships with consciousness. The relationship between the phenomenal level and the lower neural levels is not correlation but hierarchical constitution. The phenomena at the lower neural levels constitute the higher phenomenal level. Thus, what neuroscience should be looking for, it if aims at discovering ad explaining consciousness, are the constitutive mechanisms of consciousness (CMC), rather than just the NCC."

(Revonsuo, Antti. Inner Presence: Consciousness as a Biological Phenomenon. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 2006. p. 297)

"Constitutive Explanation
Constitutive explanation involves moving downward in the hierarchy and looking at a smaller-scale spatiotemporal grain or a lower level of organization. It is accomplished by showing that the phenomenon appearing as an integrated whole at one level can be decomposed to its constituent parts and their causal interactions at the immediately underlying, lower levels of description. Constitutive explanations describe the lower-level mechanisms that the entity is composed of, or whose activity, when taken as a whole, simply is the phenomenon to be explained by the description of the mechanism.

An illuminating example from biology is the cell. A single cell, taken as a whole, is an independent living unit. The constitutive explanation revealing what makes the cell tick descends to the immediately lower levels of organization where the different parts of the cell and their causal interactions are to be found.

When the same strategy is applied to the explanation of consciousness there is, first of all, the phenomenon to be explained (the explanandum): consciousness. It resides at some specific level of organization in the brain (the phenomenal level). The lower-level, nonconscious neurophysiological mechanisms, whose activity as a whole constitutes consciousness, reside at a lower level of organization in the brain.

The current search for the direct NCC appears to be the empirical approach to the constitutive explanation of consciousness. However, the notion 'neural correlates of consciousness' requires considerable clarification. The relationship between an explanandum and its lower-level constituents must be stronger than mere correlation, for correlation is not an explanatory relationship. The cell membrane, the nucleus, chromosomes, cell organelles, and other microscopic parts of the cell are not merely the biological correlates of life, but crucial microlevel constituents that explain why the whole system is alive. In the same vein, the constitutive explanation of consciousness should describe such part-whole or mereological relationships between the lower- and higher-level phenomena that make their hierarchical connection truly explanatory."

(Revonsuo, Antti. Inner Presence: Consciousness as a Biological Phenomenon. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 2006. pp. 18-20)

"Perhaps most famously, across the sciences we find explanations that explain higher-level entities (whether individuals, properties, or processes) in terms of lower-level entities that scientists take to compose them and hence these explanations use vertical relations. For example, we explain the inheritance of traits between parent organisms and their off spring using molecules taken to compose them. We explain the refractive index of a crystal using the properties and relations of the atoms that compose it. Or we explain the movement of the earth’s surface using the tectonic plates, and currents of magma, taken to compose the earth. We use the term 'compositional explanation' to refer to such explanation, though philosophers have used various names for it.(3 And we term the vertical relations that such explanations posit 'scientific composition' relations where this includes relations between individuals, properties/relations, and also processes.
(3 Other terms include 'reductive explanation', 'microstructural analyses', 'functional explanation', 'constitutive explanation', or 'mechanistic explanation'.)"

(Aizawa, Kenneth, and Carl Gillett. "Introduction: Vertical Relations in Science, Philosophy, and the World: Understanding the New Debates over Verticality." In Scientific Composition and Metaphysical Ground, edited by Kenneth Aizawa and Carl Gillett, 1-38. London: Palgrave Macmillan, 2016. p. 2)

"The Scientific Revolution was powered, at least in large part, by explanations that pierced the manifest image of common sense by explaining its level of everyday individuals, properties, and processes using qualitatively distinct, lower-level entities taken to compose them. And such explanations have now been iterated through all the levels of nature. For example, we take the corrosive action of glaciers to be explained by the movement of the ice molecules that we take to compose glaciers. We explain the motility of cells using the properties and relations of the molecules that we take to compose them. We understand why kidneys clean blood in terms of the properties and relations of the cells taken to compose them. And we could easily go on, and on, through such explanations across the sciences. Given their nature, such explanations are plausibly termed 'compositional' explanations, since they are founded around showing how lower-level entities of one kind (whether individuals, properties, or processes) compose entities of very different kinds at higher levels. Philosophers of science have used a range of other terms for compositional explanation, including 'reductive explanation', 'functional explanation', or 'mechanistic explanation', and there is a substantial body of work on the nature of such explanation, including a recent burst of research. Oddly, however, a couple of the key features of compositional explanations have not received much philosophical attention.

First, compositional explanations allow us to explain one kind of entity, such as a cell or its moving, in terms of the qualitatively different kinds of entity taken to compose it, like molecules or molecular processes of polymerization, and this hence results in what I term the 'Piercing Explanatory Power', or 'PEP', of compositional explanations. Second, we should mark that once we have successfully supplied a compositional explanation of certain entities in terms of certain others that compose them, then we have established that these entities are in some sense the same. Most importantly, a successful compositional explanation consequently shows that the mass-energy, or force, associated with a certain entity just is the mass-energy, or force, of certain component entities. This is what I will term the 'Ontologically Unifying Power', or 'OUP', of compositional explanations.

Our vast array of compositional explanations in the sciences, from fundamental physics to condensed matter physics or materials sciences, on to chemistry or biochemistry, through cytology and physiology, and now even beginning to encompass the neurosciences and psychology have had intellectual impacts in all kinds of ways. For instance, compositional explanations have been central to the centuries-old unification project in physics that has now established that there are no special forces, or energies, and that the only fundamental forces and energies are all microphysical in character. Connected to the later finding, and again driven by compositional explanations, working scientists now routinely assume the global claim that everything in nature is either identical to a microphysical entity or is composed by microphysical entities. (I will call this thesis 'physicalism' here.)"

(Gillett, Carl. "The Metaphysics of Nature, Science, and the Rules of Engagement." In Scientific Composition and Metaphysical Ground, edited by Kenneth Aizawa and Carl Gillett, 205-247. London: Palgrave Macmillan, 2016. pp. 205-7)
Endless wishful thinking, epicycling. Phenomenal consciousness has no known "constitutive neural mechanisms". Nothing of the sort was ever found, obviously (which is necessary so by definition).

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 1:17 pm
by Consul
Atla wrote: June 5th, 2019, 12:27 pm
Consul wrote: June 5th, 2019, 12:05 pm You're wrong insofar as it is by no means impossible by definition for (materialistic) neuroscience to solve the hard problem and to close the explanatory gap. You're wrong insofar as it is by no means impossible by definition for (materialistic) neuroscience to solve the hard problem and to close the explanatory gap.
I'm not wrong, it's impossible by definition.
By which definition?
Atla wrote: June 5th, 2019, 12:27 pmEndless wishful thinking, epicycling. Phenomenal consciousness has no known "constitutive neural mechanisms". Nothing of the sort was ever found, obviously (which is necessary so by definition).
By far, the most plausible and most defensible assumption is that the brain is the organ of consciousness, and that the field/stream or state of consciousness with its experiential contents is constituted or realized by and in the brain through extremely complex neurological mechanisms.

"The human brain is the most complex entity we know of. It contains at least 90 billion neurons (nerve cells). Each of these is a complex information-processing device in its own right and interacts with about 1,000 other neurons. Understanding this degree of complexity is a daunting task."

(Seth, Anil, ed. 30-Second Brain. London: Icon Books, 2017. p. 6)

As I already said, the neuroscience of consciousness is a new, 21st-century science that is still in its infancy. There couldn't have been such a science before Santiago Ramón y Cajal's revolutionary discoveries at the end of the 19th century:

"Acknowledged by many to be the architect of modern neurobiology, as a young man Cajal tried very hard to keep out of medicine altogether. He wanted to be an artist, but his father (a professor of dissection) was equally adamant that he should be a doctor. After miserable but educational apprenticeships with a cobbler and a barber, Cajal gained his medical licence and buckled down to join the family business, eventually being appointed Professor of Anatomy at Valencia.

He kept up with his drawing, making many anatomical studies, and it is possible that it was his artistic eye that led him to his greatest discovery. When in 1887, now at the University of Barcelona, he looked at the Italian physician Camillo Golgi’s immaculately stained slides of brain cells, he saw what others had not. Until this time, the prevailing orthodoxy was that the nervous system was a single reticular (mesh-like) construct without discrete cellular components (neurons). Cajal realized however that what Golgi’s images clearly showed was that the nervous system was a network of discrete cellular components. This was a correct interpretation that crucially allowed neurons to be regarded as the functional „units of the brain – free agents that could form many synaptic connections, each capable of being modified to allow for growth and adaptation. Cajal studied this newly revealed phenomenon for four years, identifying as well so-called ‘dendritic spines’ – small membranous protrusions from a neuron’s input fibres that typically receive input from a single synapse. He used his artistic skills to make meticulous drawings and then published his findings in his magnum opus Revista Trimestral de Histología Normal y Patológica, which had an impact on the scientific community similar to Darwin’s breakthrough On the Origin of Species.

By providing the most accurate description of the neuron’s function and mechanism, it changed the way neuroscience worked and cleared the path for the formulation of neuron doctrine proposed by German anatomist Heinrich von Waldeyer-Hartz. Cajal was a prodigious publisher and contributor to medical journals. He was greatly feted and heaped with awards, including the 1906 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine, which he shared with Golgi. Cajal also found time to work in other areas of medicine, notably cancer, and to set up his own research institute in Madrid. For all the breadth of his achievements, he will always be best remembered for disentangling the neuron from its imagined network."


(Seth, Anil, ed. 30-Second Brain. London: Icon Books, 2017. p. 23)

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 1:35 pm
by Atla
Consul wrote: June 5th, 2019, 1:17 pmBy which definition?
I mean standard philosophical materialism which sees matter as fundamental.
By far, the most plausible and most defensible assumption is that the brain is the organ of consciousness, and that the field/stream or state of consciousness with its experiential contents is constituted or realized by and in the brain through extremely complex neurological mechanisms.

"The human brain is the most complex entity we know of. It contains at least 90 billion neurons (nerve cells). Each of these is a complex information-processing device in its own right and interacts with about 1,000 other neurons. Understanding this degree of complexity is a daunting task."

(Seth, Anil, ed. 30-Second Brain. London: Icon Books, 2017. p. 6)

As I already said, the neuroscience of consciousness is a new, 21st-century science that is still in its infancy. There couldn't have been such a science before Santiago Ramón y Cajal's revolutionary discoveries at the end of the 19th century:

"Acknowledged by many to be the architect of modern neurobiology, as a young man Cajal tried very hard to keep out of medicine altogether. He wanted to be an artist, but his father (a professor of dissection) was equally adamant that he should be a doctor. After miserable but educational apprenticeships with a cobbler and a barber, Cajal gained his medical licence and buckled down to join the family business, eventually being appointed Professor of Anatomy at Valencia.

He kept up with his drawing, making many anatomical studies, and it is possible that it was his artistic eye that led him to his greatest discovery. When in 1887, now at the University of Barcelona, he looked at the Italian physician Camillo Golgi’s immaculately stained slides of brain cells, he saw what others had not. Until this time, the prevailing orthodoxy was that the nervous system was a single reticular (mesh-like) construct without discrete cellular components (neurons). Cajal realized however that what Golgi’s images clearly showed was that the nervous system was a network of discrete cellular components. This was a correct interpretation that crucially allowed neurons to be regarded as the functional „units of the brain – free agents that could form many synaptic connections, each capable of being modified to allow for growth and adaptation. Cajal studied this newly revealed phenomenon for four years, identifying as well so-called ‘dendritic spines’ – small membranous protrusions from a neuron’s input fibres that typically receive input from a single synapse. He used his artistic skills to make meticulous drawings and then published his findings in his magnum opus Revista Trimestral de Histología Normal y Patológica, which had an impact on the scientific community similar to Darwin’s breakthrough On the Origin of Species.

By providing the most accurate description of the neuron’s function and mechanism, it changed the way neuroscience worked and cleared the path for the formulation of neuron doctrine proposed by German anatomist Heinrich von Waldeyer-Hartz. Cajal was a prodigious publisher and contributor to medical journals. He was greatly feted and heaped with awards, including the 1906 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine, which he shared with Golgi. Cajal also found time to work in other areas of medicine, notably cancer, and to set up his own research institute in Madrid. For all the breadth of his achievements, he will always be best remembered for disentangling the neuron from its imagined network."

(Seth, Anil, ed. 30-Second Brain. London: Icon Books, 2017. p. 23)
Also wishful thinking. You pulled the complexity card, but again there is no known reason why complexity would anything have to do with matter acquiring qualia.

Neuroscience of consciousness isn't all that new, as I said we have by now mapped the inner mechanisms of the human brain/mind to a remarkable detail. The last 100 years were really fruitful, and despite that, nothing about matter acquiring qualia was found.

And saying that there is something going on in the brain that can't be going on in the rest of the universe contradicts the known laws of physics.

You say that the above is by far the most plausible and defensible assumption, I'd say it's supported by no evidence at all and contradicts physics.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 2:46 pm
by Consul
Atla wrote: June 5th, 2019, 1:35 pm
Consul wrote: June 5th, 2019, 1:17 pmBy which definition?
I mean standard philosophical materialism which sees matter as fundamental.
No definition of materialism/physicalism I know renders a neurophysiological explanation of mind/consciousness impossible by definition.
Atla wrote: June 5th, 2019, 1:35 pm
Consul wrote: June 5th, 2019, 1:17 pmBy far, the most plausible and most defensible assumption is that the brain is the organ of consciousness, and that the field/stream or state of consciousness with its experiential contents is constituted or realized by and in the brain through extremely complex neurological mechanisms.
Also wishful thinking. You pulled the complexity card, but again there is no known reason why complexity would anything have to do with matter acquiring qualia.
Neuroscience of consciousness isn't all that new, as I said we have by now mapped the inner mechanisms of the human brain/mind to a remarkable detail. The last 100 years were really fruitful, and despite that, nothing about matter acquiring qualia was found.
And saying that there is something going on in the brain that can't be going on in the rest of the universe contradicts the known laws of physics
Rubbish! Mind and consciousness depend upon physical systems with the right degree and the right sort of (structural, functional, and informational) complexity, and animal brains (integrated into animal organisms) are the only (natural) physical systems in the cosmos that have the requisite degree and sort of complexity.

What makes the antimaterialistic soul theory absurd is that it ascribes complex minds/consciousnesses to the simplest things, viz. zero-dimensional "soul-points", whose degree of structural and functional complexity is zero.

According to neuroreductive materialism, qualia are a special kind (the phenomenal one) of complex or structural physical properties of neural networks in the CNS.
Atla wrote: June 5th, 2019, 1:35 pmYou say that the above is by far the most plausible and defensible assumption, I'd say it's supported by no evidence at all and contradicts physics.
No, it doesn't, and it is supported by ample scientific evidence (especially coming from medicine, anaesthesiology, psychopathology).
What's your alternative theory that you think is more strongly supported by evidence than the brain theory? Panpsychism?

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 5:43 pm
by Felix
Tamminen: "It seems that with the concept of 'noumenon' Kant suggested the possibility of genuine transcendence."

Kant rejected the idea that there is nothing in the mind that does not derive from sense experience, and suggested there are transcendental forms of intuition.

Tamminen: "But as I said, I think that the only rational concept of transcendence is transcendence in relation to immanence, subjectivity: transcendence of knowing, not transcendence of being."

I don't see how you could have genuine transcendence of knowing without some degree of transcendence of being. If all of your knowledge comes from sensory experience and your thoughts about it, you are stuck in that mental hamster-wheel. A change in being/consciousness is necessary to even recognize you are in that trap and escape from it, and this requires suprarational rather than rational insight.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 5th, 2019, 6:06 pm
by Sculptor1
Atla wrote: June 4th, 2019, 2:37 pm Easy. The rock is made of mindstuff or whatever, and your head is also made of mindstuff or whatever, I throw the rock at you and your skull splits open.

Anyway you have accused me of believing in ghosts, of disregarding science, believing that nothing exists, being a solipsist. You are ridiculous.
Lotta whatever.
A rock is matter. That is definitive.
Get over it.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 6th, 2019, 2:43 am
by Tamminen
In fact this is very simple. When you look around, you do not find your looking in the space you are looking in. This is true of physical space, but also logical space. Therefore it is impossible to reduce consciousness to its material objects. Remember that also brains are material objects.

You can see your eye, but not your looking.

Re: Materialism is absurd

Posted: June 6th, 2019, 3:50 am
by Tamminen
Felix wrote: June 5th, 2019, 5:43 pm Tamminen: "It seems that with the concept of 'noumenon' Kant suggested the possibility of genuine transcendence."

Kant rejected the idea that there is nothing in the mind that does not derive from sense experience, and suggested there are transcendental forms of intuition.
Right. And then there is something else we can only speculate about: the noumena. But that was Kant.
Tamminen: "But as I said, I think that the only rational concept of transcendence is transcendence in relation to immanence, subjectivity: transcendence of knowing, not transcendence of being."

I don't see how you could have genuine transcendence of knowing without some degree of transcendence of being.
Suppose there is something that no one can be in contact with, physically, or know anything about it. It is still there, and its being depends on our being, or to be precise, the being of the subject. Materialism does not accept this view.
If all of your knowledge comes from sensory experience and your thoughts about it, you are stuck in that mental hamster-wheel. A change in being/consciousness is necessary to even recognize you are in that trap and escape from it, and this requires suprarational rather than rational insight.
It is an interesting question whether rationality is spontaneous or given to us. I have thought that it comes from our existential situation that is "given" in the sense that we just find ourselves in the middle of it. But on the other hand, we accept this "given" rationality as our own, so that what was a "foreign land" becomes our home. The world reveals itself to us, and loses its transcendence. It becomes our community of existence. But we need no suprarationality, in my opinion, although I do not know what exactly you mean by it.