Philosophy Discussion Forums

Fried Egg wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 5:15 am

Sy Borg wrote:Are you capable of empathy, putting yourself in another's shoes?

Most people take gender identity for granted because they are masculine males and feminine females. Can you imagine what its like to not like as you are? Can you empathise?

I do not see why having many behavioural traits that are normally associated with the opposite sex mean that you would feel that your sex/gender is wrong. Indeed, I have known many camp men/butch women who are perfectly happy with their sex/gender. That said, I'm aware there are people out there who are not happy with their gender, that this feeling can make them deeply unhappy and I do sympathise though I find it hard to empathise because, as I have stated many times in this thread, I am not aware of my own sense of gender.

That's the issue. It's so easy to go through life without giving gender a second thought, if one isn't a keen feminist or masculist. It would surely suck greatly to have to deal with gender as an issue. It's basically a life handicap.

Fried Egg wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 5:15 am

Sy Borg wrote:Clearly your claim that modern society is "too free" in its gender norms is off, given the many thousands who experience gender dysphoria - people who find living in their physical gender so disturbing that some commit suicide. Transpeople have a ridiculous suicide rate, that would be a national scandal if it applied to a group of people that society cared about.

But that is offset by the examples of those children, who given enough time will grow through their gender dysphoria. And still others who have transitioned and yet regret it later. I'm not saying all gender dysphoric people will change their mind/regret transitioning. It only causes one to think we should be very careful about applying treatments that physically damage your body, sometimes including being sterilised or unable to climax.

I think this "children growing out of dysphoria" is a recent phenomenon. Back when transgenderism was a stigma rather than trendy, gender variant kids either suffered in silence (since you never seemed to see or hear of them), presumably until they grew into their gayness or became old enough to change over. Either that, or they were open and ended up in psychiatrist offices.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 4:14 am If there were only a handful of intersex people we would learn something about gender.

The lesson being?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 1st, 2024, 9:15 pm I don't even see why you care so much,…

I "care so much", because gender theorists & activists care so much about about indoctrinating the public with their misinformation about sex.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 1st, 2024, 9:15 pm… given that I already made clear that I don't think they should compete in pro sport or insist themselves on women's spaces without invitation, etc. I already said that I see them as an inbetween sex rather than absolutely one or the other, which is obvious rather than controversial.

Okay, but you should keep in mind that there is nothing literally "intersexual" about (non-DSD-afflicted) transsexuals.

Consul wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 11:30 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 1st, 2024, 9:15 pm I don't even see why you care so much,…

I "care so much", because gender theorists & activists care so much about about indoctrinating the public with their misinformation about sex.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 1st, 2024, 9:15 pm… given that I already made clear that I don't think they should compete in pro sport or insist themselves on women's spaces without invitation, etc. I already said that I see them as an inbetween sex rather than absolutely one or the other, which is obvious rather than controversial.

Okay, but you should keep in mind that there is nothing literally "intersexual" about (non-DSD-afflicted) transsexuals.

The transgender people are in between the genders to a large extent, even though some would say that they identify completely with the gender to which they have made a transition to. It may be partly semantic and does involve a person's sense of identity. Similarly, some people with intersex issues identify as intersex, or simply as male or female, and it is personal choice. What's the problem with this? It goes beyond ovaries/testicles and chromosomes.

There are people who disagree about this, and no one can say what a person must think. However, there is a need for fair treatment, with gender identity being a protected characteristic of equal opportunities and, telling people how they should see themselves is dogmatic and interference. This is especially true if it is related to protecting the right to not be offended by another. Surely, the important issue is exploration and dialogue about ideas as opposed to rigidity. The problem with activism is that it can seem to almost silence views if it is extreme but, equally, there are those who wish to drown out those who are open about their gender journeying and issues. As it is, there is a lot of discussion even if it involves controversy and conflict.

Consul wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 11:18 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 4:14 am If there were only a handful of intersex people we would learn something about gender.

The lesson being?

A lesson you would not be interested in exploring.

Consul wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 11:30 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 1st, 2024, 9:15 pm I don't even see why you care so much,…

I "care so much", because gender theorists & activists care so much about about indoctrinating the public with their misinformation about sex.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 1st, 2024, 9:15 pm… given that I already made clear that I don't think they should compete in pro sport or insist themselves on women's spaces without invitation, etc. I already said that I see them as an inbetween sex rather than absolutely one or the other, which is obvious rather than controversial.

Okay, but you should keep in mind that there is nothing literally "intersexual" about (non-DSD-afflicted) transsexuals.

1. What misinformation? Gender identity is real. Some people have a gender identity that does not accord with their genetic sex. These are proven facts - proven by research and history.

2. Once again, you prioritise labels and technicalities over the actual reality of the situation. Given the inevitable graduations, it is rational to think of at least some transpeople as mentally intersexed.

JackDaydream wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 5:11 amThe issue which I see your focus is missing is the human side of gender identity. Science has been helpful in understanding the physiology of sexual.differentiation but there is the lived identity and personal experience which is more than clear categories. While the activists may seem to be telling people what to think that comes in the context of people' s struggle, often in the response to oppression and bullying.
…
Of course, the issue of whether gender is innate is a philosophical and psychological one of importance for all men and women and not just a question of intersex and transgender people. The issues of the minority raise areas for thinking but there is a danger of too much being projected onto those who are different. This is where science can be turned into an ideology in a similar way to religious belief has done in regard to gender and sexuality.

The biology of sex and the (neuro)physiology of sex aren't the only sciences of sex (& sexuality), since there are also the psychology of sex and the sociology of sex. As I already said, there is a bio-psycho-social sex-complex that isn't exhausted by the subject matter of the biology or (neuro)physiology of sex. However, owing to the influence of gender studies (as conceived and practiced by the Cultural Left, i.e. as a politico-scientific project), the science of sex is now suffused with woke ideology.

(By "woke ideology" I don't just mean the perfectly legitimate political fight for the human rights of homosexuals, intersexuals, and transsexuals, but the entire politico-philosophical framework of the Identitarian/Minoritarian Left aka Postmodern Multicultural Left.)

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 3:45 pm 1. What misinformation? Gender identity is real. Some people have a gender identity that does not accord with their genetic sex. These are proven facts - proven by research and history.

2. Once again, you prioritise labels and technicalities over the actual reality of the situation. Given the inevitable graduations, it is rational to think of at least some transpeople as mentally intersexed.

The ambiguity of "gender" and "gender identity", which has been causing a huge amount of confusion and misunderstanding, makes it inevitable to talk about "technicalities" such as conceptual distinctions and definitions. When you say "gender identity is real," what exactly is said to be real?

Consul wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 4:10 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 3:45 pm 1. What misinformation? Gender identity is real. Some people have a gender identity that does not accord with their genetic sex. These are proven facts - proven by research and history.

2. Once again, you prioritise labels and technicalities over the actual reality of the situation. Given the inevitable graduations, it is rational to think of at least some transpeople as mentally intersexed.

The ambiguity of "gender" and "gender identity", which has been causing a huge amount of confusion and misunderstanding, makes it inevitable to talk about "technicalities" such as conceptual distinctions and definitions. When you say "gender identity is real," what exactly is said to be real?

Whatever it is that drives sane, intelligent, moral people to go through the insane problems of changing sex. Something real is going on.

Given that brains and bodies will vary from the most stereotypically feminine to the most stereotypically masculine, it's only logical that certain members of each gender will win the "booby prize" - being poorly suited to their expected gender roles. Basically, they are just trying to find a way to feel somewhat comfortable in life like "normal" people. Seems fair to me, with some (previously mentioned) provisos.

Consul wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 3:54 pm

JackDaydream wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 5:11 amThe issue which I see your focus is missing is the human side of gender identity. Science has been helpful in understanding the physiology of sexual.differentiation but there is the lived identity and personal experience which is more than clear categories. While the activists may seem to be telling people what to think that comes in the context of people' s struggle, often in the response to oppression and bullying.
…
Of course, the issue of whether gender is innate is a philosophical and psychological one of importance for all men and women and not just a question of intersex and transgender people. The issues of the minority raise areas for thinking but there is a danger of too much being projected onto those who are different. This is where science can be turned into an ideology in a similar way to religious belief has done in regard to gender and sexuality.

The biology of sex and the (neuro)physiology of sex aren't the only sciences of sex (& sexuality), since there are also the psychology of sex and the sociology of sex. As I already said, there is a bio-psycho-social sex-complex that isn't exhausted by the subject matter of the biology or (neuro)physiology of sex. However, owing to the influence of gender studies (as conceived and practiced by the Cultural Left, i.e. as a politico-scientific project), the science of sex is now suffused with woke ideology.

(By "woke ideology" I don't just mean the perfectly legitimate political fight for the human rights of homosexuals, intersexuals, and transsexuals, but the entire politico-philosophical framework of the Identitarian/Minoritarian Left aka Postmodern Multicultural Left.)

I am inclined to take a multidisciplinary approach because I was introduced to this while doing a year module on 'Gender and Sexuality' on a course in 'Social Ethics'. The tutors were more influenced by feminism than postmodernism and feminism played such a strong influence in sociology and academic thinking..Funnily enough, the external invigilators queried while all the male students were arguing from a feminist perspective and whether this meant the tutors were indoctrinating feminist ideas.

One important writer was Mary Daly and within Englisj literature, Virginis Wolf's, 'Orlando'' was important as well as many gay authors. One very interesting book is 'The Well of Loneliness', by Radcylffe Hall, who identified as a 'gender invert' as it was before the time God transsexual identities and physical treatment. One more recent novel which looks at intersex is Jeffrey Eugene's 'Middlesex', as it a fiction tale of someone who was assigned as female at birth who began going through male puberty.

Within psychology, there are various approaches, and Freud's ideas were very influential in thinking until his ideas went out of fashion, especially with the idea of the Oedipus complex. Personally, I have read more on Jung's idea and he wrote about the anima and animus as opposites in the human psyche, which is a foundation for the idea of androgyny. Sexology and psychiatry were major too and postmodernist sociology may have stepped in here as a response to the limitations of the psychological approaches.

I am not sure to what extent postmodernism is such an influence now, except by people with a special interest in it. The stories in popular culture and the media are probably more influential and so many ideas on the internet in general. One aspect which I think doesn't get enough attention in thinking about gender is anthropology, because it says so much about the cultural comparisons and development of gender in culture to complement or challenge the perspective of biology.

JackDaydream wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 12:23 pmThe transgender people are in between the genders to a large extent, even though some would say that they identify completely with the gender to which they have made a transition to. It may be partly semantic and does involve a person's sense of identity. Similarly, some people with intersex issues identify as intersex, or simply as male or female, and it is personal choice. What's the problem with this? It goes beyond ovaries/testicles and chromosomes. There are people who disagree about this, and no one can say what a person must think.

The problem is that nowadays many people tell us (wrongly) that one's sex is defined or determined by one's sexual self-identification.
(By "sex" I mean one's natural sex, not one's "legal sex".)

What is self-identification (as sth)?

"to self-identify = to believe or assert that one belongs to a certain group or class" (American Heritage)

"to self-identify = to believe that you are a particular kind of person, especially when other people do not think that you are that kind of person" (Cambridge Dictionary)

It should be obvious that believing or asserting to be X isn't synonymous with and doesn't entail being X.

We could distinguish between objective gender identity and subjective gender identity, with the former consisting in a person's actual sex and the latter consisting in her/his sexual self-identification.

What gender theorists call "gender identity" is nothing more than subjective gender identity = gender self-identification = gender self-belief.
(By "self-belief" I mean belief about oneself, not belief in oneself qua self-confidence.)

Belief doesn't entail knowledge, so self-belief doesn't entail self-knowledge either. If you believe to be female/male, you don't thereby know you're female/male, since you can falsely believe to be female/male.

Consul wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 5:55 pmWhat gender theorists call "gender identity" is nothing more than subjective gender identity = gender self-identification = gender self-belief.
(By "self-belief" I mean belief about oneself, not belief in oneself qua self-confidence.)

Where there is self-belief (self-conviction), there is the possibility of self-deception and self-delusion.
Gender theorists try to sell gender identity as gender self-knowledge, which would preclude gender self-deception/self-delusion; but gender identity as such is really just gender self-belief (self-conviction), which does not do so.
I'm not saying that self-belief precludes self-knowledge, but merely that it doesn't entail self-knowledge.

Consul wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 6:15 pm

Consul wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 5:55 pmWhat gender theorists call "gender identity" is nothing more than subjective gender identity = gender self-identification = gender self-belief.
(By "self-belief" I mean belief about oneself, not belief in oneself qua self-confidence.)

Where there is self-belief (self-conviction), there is the possibility of self-deception and self-delusion.

There is a greater possibility of genuine variance, unless one assumes - as is common - that gender dysphoria is inherently delusional. Of course, not so long ago homosexuality was also considered delusional. People distrust the unfamiliar.

Given that transpeople have to go through years of psychiatric assessment before surgery, and given that "treatments" tend to be about as "successful" as gay conversion therapy, it's clear that there are genuine issues with mental gender that are not mental illness and not well understood.

"[A]ccepting those who are different does not require a rejection of male and female and our sexed bodies. In fact, male and female form the bedrock for the sexual diversity in our bodies and our behavior."

(Elliott, Zachary A. Binary: Debunking the Sex Spectrum Myth. Paradox Press, 2023. p. vii)

Well said!

No one here has rejected male and female. Obviously.