Philosophy Discussion Forums

Choice is the root of any action, mental, verbal, bodily. It's not valid to declare something determined when simply running in loops, taking on similar choices on 're-action' (fruits of deeds). Of course, how one perceives (remembers) so one thinks, acts.

And there are four kind of choices: unskillful, leading to dark results, skilful to bright, mixed to dark and bright, and the way of choices leading to an end of choices.

So it's total dependent whether one is right informed about whats right, wrong, mixed and done for beyond.

Samana Johann wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2023, 7:45 am Choice is the root of any action, mental, verbal, bodily. It's not valid to declare something determined when simply running in loops, taking on similar choices on 're-action' (fruits of deeds). Of course, how one perceives (remembers) so one thinks, acts.

And there are four kind of choices: unskillful, leading to dark results, skilful to bright, mixed to dark and bright, and the way of choices leading to an end of choices.

So it's total dependent whether one is right informed about whats right, wrong, mixed and done for beyond.

Not sure any of this relates to the thread.
How do you view the idea of radical free will?

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2023, 10:33 pm Well, it's at least odd that we have the notion of choice if determinism is true. So I'm in a parking lot and mulling over my decision to park at the spot where I am. I could've parked anywhere of course but I made a choice to park close to the wall and not somwehere in the center where, incidentally, there was more space for my car. Why? I chose to?! A simple scenario that many can relate to, it's just an ordinary day in the life of an ordinary human in a regular city/town.

So how did you make that free choice?

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2023, 10:01 am

Samana Johann wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2023, 7:45 am Choice is the root of any action, mental, verbal, bodily. It's not valid to declare something determined when simply running in loops, taking on similar choices on 're-action' (fruits of deeds). Of course, how one perceives (remembers) so one thinks, acts.

And there are four kind of choices: unskillful, leading to dark results, skilful to bright, mixed to dark and bright, and the way of choices leading to an end of choices.

So it's total dependent whether one is right informed about whats right, wrong, mixed and done for beyond.

Not sure any of this relates to the thread.
How do you view the idea of radical free will?

It's actually very simple, yet hard to do for many: the more without debts, without faults, the more freedom one gains. That's why virtue do not only lead to wealth, to happiness, but also to even highest independency, good householder.
The more unskilful, the more bound and limited.

It's because not seeing relations, but just one and one. Also this lack of freedom is a matter of wrong choices, indebted, based on wrong views, good choices in ways to think are hardly taken.

An unfree person will likely perceive lack of freedom, as not knowing that it has a cause, and not getting work it out.

Samana Johann wrote: ↑April 4th, 2023, 7:29 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2023, 10:01 am

Samana Johann wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2023, 7:45 am Choice is the root of any action, mental, verbal, bodily. It's not valid to declare something determined when simply running in loops, taking on similar choices on 're-action' (fruits of deeds). Of course, how one perceives (remembers) so one thinks, acts.

And there are four kind of choices: unskillful, leading to dark results, skilful to bright, mixed to dark and bright, and the way of choices leading to an end of choices.

So it's total dependent whether one is right informed about whats right, wrong, mixed and done for beyond.

Not sure any of this relates to the thread.
How do you view the idea of radical free will?

It's actually very simple, yet hard to do for many: the more without debts, without faults, the more freedom one gains. That's why virtue do not only lead to wealth, to happiness, but also to even highest independency, good householder.
The more unskilful, the more bound and limited.

It's because not seeing relations, but just one and one. Also this lack of freedom is a matter of wrong choices, indebted, based on wrong views, good choices in ways to think are hardly taken.

Yes I am also determined to do what I want too.

But my question is something else. Whilst you feel you have free will, the question is how you cause that to happen. How do you take an option?

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2023, 10:02 am

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2023, 10:33 pm Well, it's at least odd that we have the notion of choice if determinism is true. So I'm in a parking lot and mulling over my decision to park at the spot where I am. I could've parked anywhere of course but I made a choice to park close to the wall and not somwehere in the center where, incidentally, there was more space for my car. Why? I chose to?! A simple scenario that many can relate to, it's just an ordinary day in the life of an ordinary human in a regular city/town.

So how did you make that free choice?

That would be morality. It involves the simple eternal in-the-moment question "What is good?".

value wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 8:58 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2023, 10:02 am

AgentSmith wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2023, 10:33 pm Well, it's at least odd that we have the notion of choice if determinism is true. So I'm in a parking lot and mulling over my decision to park at the spot where I am. I could've parked anywhere of course but I made a choice to park close to the wall and not somwehere in the center where, incidentally, there was more space for my car. Why? I chose to?! A simple scenario that many can relate to, it's just an ordinary day in the life of an ordinary human in a regular city/town.

So how did you make that free choice?

That would be morality. It involves the simple eternal in-the-moment question "What is good?".

No.
SO when you chose strawberry rather than chocolate- that's morality? Or chose between a blue and a black t-shirt? Really?
I asked HOW? This is not a thread about how can there be choices in a deterministic world

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 10:20 am
No.
SO when you chose strawberry rather than chocolate- that's morality? Or chose between a blue and a black t-shirt? Really?
I asked HOW? This is not a thread about how can there be choices in a deterministic world

You are correct that it doesn't answer the question in the OP. It answered your question: "So how did you make that free choice?"

The scope of options is not limited by the idea of good and therefore choices are truly free in the sense that they adhere to the idea of good and are not deterministic.

To answer your question. Yes. A taste related choice involves morality or the simple question "What is good?"

It is morality even when a biological cell explores its world within the context of reason. That reasonableness - that directedness of its organizational behavior - that involves morality since it involves the subjectively addressed question "What is good?". (with reasonableness being evidence that that question is adhered to from the perspective of the cell).

(2017) Cells sense their environment to explore it
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 125821.htm

value wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 11:48 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 10:20 am
No.
SO when you chose strawberry rather than chocolate- that's morality? Or chose between a blue and a black t-shirt? Really?
I asked HOW? This is not a thread about how can there be choices in a deterministic world

You are correct that it doesn't answer the question in the OP. It answered your question: "So how did you make that free choice?"

No it did not.

The scope of options is not limited by the idea of good and therefore choices are truly free in the sense that they adhere to the idea of good and are not deterministic.

To answer your question. Yes. A taste related choice involves morality or the simple question "What is good?"

Not relevant.

It is morality even when a biological cell explores its world within the context of reason. That reasonableness - that directedness of its organizational behavior - that involves morality since it involves the subjectively addressed question "What is good?". (with reasonableness being evidence that that question is adhered to from the perspective of the cell).

(2017) Cells sense their environment to explore it

Never mind

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 6:46 am

Samana Johann wrote: ↑April 4th, 2023, 7:29 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2023, 10:01 am

Samana Johann wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2023, 7:45 am Choice is the root of any action, mental, verbal, bodily. It's not valid to declare something determined when simply running in loops, taking on similar choices on 're-action' (fruits of deeds). Of course, how one perceives (remembers) so one thinks, acts.

And there are four kind of choices: unskillful, leading to dark results, skilful to bright, mixed to dark and bright, and the way of choices leading to an end of choices.

So it's total dependent whether one is right informed about whats right, wrong, mixed and done for beyond.

Not sure any of this relates to the thread.
How do you view the idea of radical free will?

It's actually very simple, yet hard to do for many: the more without debts, without faults, the more freedom one gains. That's why virtue do not only lead to wealth, to happiness, but also to even highest independency, good householder.
The more unskilful, the more bound and limited.

It's because not seeing relations, but just one and one. Also this lack of freedom is a matter of wrong choices, indebted, based on wrong views, good choices in ways to think are hardly taken.

Yes I am also determined to do what I want too.

But my question is something else. Whilst you feel you have free will, the question is how you cause that to happen. How do you take an option?

The more indebted, the more unfree. Addicted, opinions are small. The more avoiding contact with certain food, abstain from taking on it, the more freedom will be gained, good householder.
Driven by desires, beings are bond. Now, not attentive, they think that stilling desires is freedom, but it's because of this ignorance, that their are bond, incapable to move anywhere.

To take on the opinion requires to see the burden suffering in taking on, holding on. It's suffering that gives rise to surrender, letting go.

A deterministic world does not, in any way preclude options since the options available are themselves deterministic in their expected outcome. One chooses among the choices deemed most applicable to the situation...an everyday event. Determinism was never meant to exclude all such possibilities which, in themselves, operate, more or less, deterministically. If that were the case, the world would remain solidly frozen in a fixed paradigm where any deviation of an optionless future remains unincorporated and ineffective. Not least, determinism implies the existence of a creator, of intention based on purpose; remove purpose and intention disappears negating any conceptual Creator enforcing its own predesigned archetypes.

Samana Johann wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 7:04 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 6:46 am

Samana Johann wrote: ↑April 4th, 2023, 7:29 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2023, 10:01 am

Not sure any of this relates to the thread.
How do you view the idea of radical free will?

It's actually very simple, yet hard to do for many: the more without debts, without faults, the more freedom one gains. That's why virtue do not only lead to wealth, to happiness, but also to even highest independency, good householder.
The more unskilful, the more bound and limited.

It's because not seeing relations, but just one and one. Also this lack of freedom is a matter of wrong choices, indebted, based on wrong views, good choices in ways to think are hardly taken.

Yes I am also determined to do what I want too.

But my question is something else. Whilst you feel you have free will, the question is how you cause that to happen. How do you take an option?

The more indebted, the more unfree. Addicted, opinions are small. The more avoiding contact with certain food, abstain from taking on it, the more freedom will be gained, good householder.
Driven by desires, beings are bond. Now, not attentive, they think that stilling desires is freedom, but it's because of this ignorance, that their are bond, incapable to move anywhere.

To take on the opinion requires to see the burden suffering in taking on, holding on. It's suffering that gives rise to surrender, letting go.

Never mind.

Tegularius wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 9:33 pm A deterministic world does not, in any way preclude options since the options available are themselves deterministic in their expected outcome.

They are still options deterministic or not.
If they were not deterministic then you could never make a useful choice, yet we make useful choices all the time, and it is the very fact that those choices are responses to antecedent facts about the prevailing conditions that make them useful and relevant.
Strawberry or chocolate. We chose chocolate because that decision is determined by our preference. We love chocolate so make that meaningful choice. If we are determined to try something new today we chose strawberry. That is determinedly free, unless someone is holding a gun at our heads telling us what to chose.

One chooses among the choices deemed most applicable to the situation...an everyday event. Determinism was never meant to exclude all such possibilities which, in themselves, operate, more or less, deterministically. If that were the case, the world would remain solidly frozen in a fixed paradigm where any deviation of an optionless future remains unincorporated and ineffective. Not least, determinism implies the existence of a creator, of intention based on purpose; remove purpose and intention disappears negating any conceptual Creator enforcing its own predesigned archetypes.

Determinism does not exclude anything. Each moment in time is a unique moment where causalities collide to make new effects. Only determinism can include everything. The claim of radical free will is a claim that we have a god-like perspective unaffected by who and what we are, unaffected by out volition and motivation, and unaffected by such things as needs desires and education.
But those that claim such a weird thing still cannot account for HOW they make a choice.
And despite asking several persons on this thread no one has begun to answer that question, because they have no account. They prefer to talk about morality "causing" (sic) to make a choice.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 6th, 2023, 4:40 am

Samana Johann wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 7:04 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 5th, 2023, 6:46 am

Samana Johann wrote: ↑April 4th, 2023, 7:29 pm

It's actually very simple, yet hard to do for many: the more without debts, without faults, the more freedom one gains. That's why virtue do not only lead to wealth, to happiness, but also to even highest independency, good householder.
The more unskilful, the more bound and limited.

It's because not seeing relations, but just one and one. Also this lack of freedom is a matter of wrong choices, indebted, based on wrong views, good choices in ways to think are hardly taken.

Yes I am also determined to do what I want too.

But my question is something else. Whilst you feel you have free will, the question is how you cause that to happen. How do you take an option?

The more indebted, the more unfree. Addicted, opinions are small. The more avoiding contact with certain food, abstain from taking on it, the more freedom will be gained, good householder.
Driven by desires, beings are bond. Now, not attentive, they think that stilling desires is freedom, but it's because of this ignorance, that their are bond, incapable to move anywhere.

To take on the opinion requires to see the burden suffering in taking on, holding on. It's suffering that gives rise to surrender, letting go.

Never mind.

How could one give another freedom of choice else than just wishing him to find the exit himself, real happiness, for himself with ease.
Giving freedom, one gains freedom and release.