Philosophy Discussion Forums

Greta wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 4:00 am

jerlands wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 3:06 am

"The Lie" I think is something similar to a false identity, part of our struggle to enter into reality.

How do you mean "enter into reality"?

From my POV, if we follow our developmental line, or the evolutionary line, in the first instance there is complete innocence. Then the capacity to deceive comes, one that all predators must have to survive - especially predators without thick hair, skin, scales or armour - only their ability to be where dangers are not. Then comes the distinctly human capacity to understand why lying and deceit are ultimately self-defeating (again, aside from white lies).

Our concept of reality is limited by what? Possibly the answer is knowledge. Our conception of what we are as human beings may not be entirely understood nor our relation with our environment. 99.9999% of all humans alive today don't believe that we have any connection to things like the weather. I mean.. how could that be? And I'm not talking about pollution. We might perceive ourselves as predators, looking out for our own survival but I think it's not that simple. We really understand very little about ourselves, our origins or anything else for that matter.
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jerlands wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 4:19 am

Greta wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 4:00 am
How do you mean "enter into reality"?

From my POV, if we follow our developmental line, or the evolutionary line, in the first instance there is complete innocence. Then the capacity to deceive comes, one that all predators must have to survive - especially predators without thick hair, skin, scales or armour - only their ability to be where dangers are not. Then comes the distinctly human capacity to understand why lying and deceit are ultimately self-defeating (again, aside from white lies).

Our concept of reality is limited by what? Possibly the answer is knowledge. Our conception of what we are as human beings may not be entirely understood nor our relation with our environment. 99.9999% of all humans alive today don't believe that we have any connection to things like the weather. I mean.. how could that be? And I'm not talking about pollution. We might perceive ourselves as predators, looking out for our own survival but I think it's not that simple. We really understand very little about ourselves, our origins or anything else for that matter.
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Our senses are evolved to survive, not to understand impractical abstracted thought. That meta project of understanding life is a newish work in progress.

Greta wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 4:32 am

jerlands wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 4:19 am

Our concept of reality is limited by what? Possibly the answer is knowledge. Our conception of what we are as human beings may not be entirely understood nor our relation with our environment. 99.9999% of all humans alive today don't believe that we have any connection to things like the weather. I mean.. how could that be? And I'm not talking about pollution. We might perceive ourselves as predators, looking out for our own survival but I think it's not that simple. We really understand very little about ourselves, our origins or anything else for that matter.
.

Our senses are evolved to survive, not to understand impractical abstracted thought. That meta project of understanding life is a newish work in progress.

How do things really work? You mention abstract thought but what type of thought was it that led say the viking Leif Ericson to America? That may have been a sense but he had nothing tangible to guide him. Columbus on the other hand possibly heard wisps of yarns passed from days the vikings were in the mediterranean.
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jerlands wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 4:47 am

Greta wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 4:32 am Our senses are evolved to survive, not to understand impractical abstracted thought. That meta project of understanding life is a newish work in progress.

How do things really work?

Anyone who answers this question with authority is pretending :)

jerlands wrote: You mention abstract thought but what type of thought was it that led say the viking Leif Ericson to America? That may have been a sense but he had nothing tangible to guide him. Columbus on the other hand possibly heard wisps of yarns passed from days the vikings were in the mediterranean.

Abstract thought is the human advantage - our "killer app" - that can probe the underlying principles of things rather than repetitively dealing with individual instances as if unconnected. It's like an extra sense, or at least an enhanced one, the capacity to see connections between things, causes and effects.

Ironically, after my comment above, this human capacity allows us to - if not knowing how things really work - to at least know much better than competing species (and cultures that went extinct). To this end, we pass knowledge down generations, like the Bible, Koran, Baghavad Gita, The Book of the Dead, the Tao Te Ching, Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, The Origin of Species, Critique of Pure Reason, The Meaning of Relativity, The Selfish Gene, encyclopaedias, Google ... ad infinitum.

We humans are mighty good at generating information, but not always eager to share it around because "information is power".

Greta wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 5:06 am

jerlands wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 4:47 am How do things really work?

Anyone who answers this question with authority is pretending

jerlands wrote: You mention abstract thought but what type of thought was it that led say the viking Leif Ericson to America? That may have been a sense but he had nothing tangible to guide him. Columbus on the other hand possibly heard wisps of yarns passed from days the vikings were in the mediterranean.

Abstract thought is the human advantage - our "killer app" - that can probe the underlying principles of things rather than repetitively dealing with individual instances as if unconnected. It's like an extra sense, or at least an enhanced one, the capacity to see connections between things, causes and effects.

Ironically, after my comment above, this human capacity allows us to - if not knowing how things really work - to at least know much better than competing species (and cultures that went extinct). To this end, we pass knowledge down generations, like the Bible, Koran, Baghavad Gita, The Book of the Dead, the Tao Te Ching, Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, The Origin of Species, Critique of Pure Reason, The Meaning of Relativity, The Selfish Gene, encyclopaedias, Google ... ad infinitum.

We humans are mighty good at generating information, but not always eager to share it around because "information is power".

Wikipedia?

Well, I perceive paradigm shift that connects us more to breath than ink.
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I forgot Wiki, and it's an important one. Cheers

There is a new age movement in train that sees itself as the next wave. My old Buddhist readings of forty or so years ago tell me that this new wave of anti-materialism is not to be taken at face value, but is a caricature - a more extreme version - of what it will eventually bring.

This is known by some damn obscure(?) Easterner I read back then as The Lion Stage. This is the fierce stage of change, because momentum of a movement, needs a fierce shove to change that direction. For example, Germaine Greer's The Female Eunuch was essential and at times quite brilliant in highlighting and elucidating many problems between the sexes and the exploitation of women that was being taken for granted at the time. The book was also, at times, extreme, unhinged, irrational and at times downright idiotic.

Roughly the same can be said about the current new age movement. Yes, there is a point to be made that science is not to be taken as gospel - a point that scientists themselves often keep trying to put across, and failing. My guess is that the impact of this new movement will come from Lovelock's Giai idea, which seems to be the most logical and grounded of their projections as far as I can tell. There could be some interesting things coming out of sacred geometry too because there are many uncanny instances and parallels in that area stemming from reality's fractal nature.

Oops, this was supposed to be about the Bible

Greta wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 5:29 am I forgot Wiki, and it's an important one. Cheers

There is a new age movement in train that sees itself as the next wave. My old Buddhist readings of forty or so years ago tell me that this new wave of anti-materialism is not to be taken at face value, but is a caricature - a more extreme version - of what it will eventually bring. This is known by some damn obscure(?) Easterner I read back then as The Lion Stage. This is the fierce stage of change, because momentum of a movement, needs a fierce shove to change that direction. For example, Germaine Greers' The Female Eunuch was essential and at times quite brilliant in highlighting and elucidating many problems between the sexes and the exploitation of women that was being taken for granted at the time. The book was also, at times, extreme, unhinged, irrational and at times downright idiotic.

Roughly the same can be said about the current new age movement. Yes, there is a point to be made that science is not to be taken as gospel - a point that scientists themselves often keep trying to put across, and failing. My guess is that the impact of this new movement will come from Lovelock's Giai idea, which seems to be the most logical and grounded of their projections as far as I can tell. There could be some interesting things coming out of sacred geometry too because there are many uncanny instances and parallels in that area stemming from reality's fractal nature.

Oops, this was supposed to be about the Bible

The Bible for me is a universal philosophical discussion so I have no bounds

Here's the shift.. How we perceive the most basic concepts is changing and how we learn is part of that. Where knowledge lies and how we are able to grasp and comprehend it. The fact is we don't understand many of the most fundamental aspects of ourselves e.g., what our organs are. We know things about them but we don't have cognitive depth of understanding and are only now touching upon with some degree of comprehension. Knowledge is not leading us on the same path. It is taking us into our relationship with everything else.
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jerlands wrote: ↑February 25th, 2018, 11:45 pm

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 25th, 2018, 11:02 pm Returning to the subject at hand...;
I will repeat that the 'purpose' of the bible is no different than the 'purpose' of all metaphor.

I forgot to mention that all (writings, rocks, people...) is metaphor, no matter the 'literal intent' of the author, who is also metaphor! *__-

Message du jour;

All words are 'God's Word'!

Recommended (humorous) movie of the moment is;
'It's Gawd!' - starring Tommy Chong
The theology gets screwy, but the message is good.

Maybe when we reach truth then things will be revealed.
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That is like the young fish swimming all over in search of water.
There is not anything but 'Truth!'!
God/Truth/Reality... existence...

Existence = the One Universe = Nature = Reality = Consciousness = Truth = 'Self!' = God = Brahman = Tao = ... etc....
ALL INCLUSIVE!!
'One'!

All you need for Truth (Self!) to be 'revealed', is to pay attention to whatever is before you at the moment. *__-

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 10:38 pmAll you need for Truth (Self!) to be 'revealed', is to pay attention to whatever is before you at the moment. *__-

That sounds about right, taking into account how much we don't and can't notice.

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 10:38 pm

jerlands wrote: ↑February 25th, 2018, 11:45 pm

Maybe when we reach truth then things will be revealed.
.

That is like the young fish swimming all over in search of water.
There is not anything but 'Truth!'!
God/Truth/Reality... existence...

Existence = the One Universe = Nature = Reality = Consciousness = Truth = 'Self!' = God = Brahman = Tao = ... etc....
ALL INCLUSIVE!!
'One'!

All you need for Truth (Self!) to be 'revealed', is to pay attention to whatever is before you at the moment. *__-

Some might like to believe all is good. I see that as a gateway to the boogeyman
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jerlands wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 10:54 pm

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 10:38 pm
That is like the young fish swimming all over in search of water.
There is not anything but 'Truth!'!
God/Truth/Reality... existence...

Existence = the One Universe = Nature = Reality = Consciousness = Truth = 'Self!' = God = Brahman = Tao = ... etc....
ALL INCLUSIVE!!
'One'!

All you need for Truth (Self!) to be 'revealed', is to pay attention to whatever is before you at the moment. *__-

Some might like to believe all is good. I see that as a gateway to the boogeyman
.

I would never assert such a thing, for something to be judged as 'good' by one Perspective, there is an equal and opposite Perspective to adjudge it as bad/evil.
For something to be seen as 'good', it is assumed that the Balance even reached here! *__-

Greta wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 10:51 pm

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 10:38 pmAll you need for Truth (Self!) to be 'revealed', is to pay attention to whatever is before you at the moment. *__-

That sounds about right, taking into account how much we don't and can't notice.

If you think about it, what is Knowledge for/to us only lasts a moment, and a new moment brings a new, unique, Perspective/Knowledge.
And we are ignorant of EVERYTHING ELSE! Of everything that all other Perspectives are experiencing!

What we Know, at any moment, is minuscule, indeed! *__-

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 11:17 pm

Greta wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 10:51 pmThat sounds about right, taking into account how much we don't and can't notice.

If you think about it, what is Knowledge for/to us only lasts a moment, and a new moment brings a new, unique, Perspective/Knowledge.
And we are ignorant of EVERYTHING ELSE! Of everything that all other Perspectives are experiencing!

What we Know, at any moment, is minuscule, indeed!

However, we can borrow the insights of others, with them effectively acting as weak extended senses for us, which greatly broadens our depth of perception, especially seeing the movement of moments rather than a simple animal's perspective where the world is anew every moment. Each present moment carries the weight of the accumulated past and is thus richer and more complex than the moment before.

While it's been noted that more happened in the first second of the universe than in all the time since, the nature of that first moment was basic, without (known) cumulative effects of the past.

Greta wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 11:31 pm

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 26th, 2018, 11:17 pm If you think about it, what is Knowledge for/to us only lasts a moment, and a new moment brings a new, unique, Perspective/Knowledge.
And we are ignorant of EVERYTHING ELSE! Of everything that all other Perspectives are experiencing!

What we Know, at any moment, is minuscule, indeed!

However, we can borrow the insights of others,

If you mean that we can access the experiences/Knowledge of other unique Perspectives, then I'd say YES! Exactly!
There is only One Universal Consciousness into which each unique Perspective 'uploads' it's moment of Knowledge.
So, yes, the only problem is 'access', and there are various methods.
That is how we can Know (intuition) beyond our 'immediate context'.

especially seeing the movement of moments rather than a simple animal's perspective where the world is anew every moment.

Every moment is a unique perception/Perspective (Soul).
If you do not see the world from that unique and new place, you are sleeping.
"The Matrix has you!"
Yes, there are thoughts of a 'yesterday/past' and a 'tomorrow/future', but all experience has to show for all that is the Now! The Now! of Knowledge! *__-

Each present moment carries the weight of the accumulated past and is thus richer and more complex than the moment before.

Perhaps restated as the present moment (many of them) 'carries the weight' of perceived 'thought', in which lie (lies) 'past' and 'future', "and is thus richer and more complex than the moment before"! Well, then just another moment, where such thought is unavailable to perceive.
All moments are synchronous. All existence is The Singularity.

While it's been noted that more happened in the first second of the universe than in all the time since, the nature of that first moment was basic, without (known) cumulative effects of the past.

If anything is 'happening', it is 'happening', existing, Here! Now!
Reality is a synchronicity of moments.

To me, the Bible is all about how an information of truth can be conveyed among humans. The nature of humans is that they know nothing about the past (you may fail to realize this though), they know nothing about the future. We humans get to know the past simply because there are human witnesses writing testimonies about what happened. That is to say, the only (or almost only) way for humans to get to know the past is by means of other humans in history standing witnessing of what might have happened. We as human individuals don't even know what we ourselves did a year ago. If each of us just did one thing today but a year ago which we ourselves don't remember. It says that we 7 billion things happened per day without tracked records. That's how incapable we are in dealing with the past. So almost exclusively, the term "history" to us humans is all about testimonies about "big events" only. Events which were BIG enough for human witnesses back then bore testimonies which happened to last till now. Even under the circumstance that we have "history" books/records, most of them cannot be tracked back how credible they are, this more distant history is the more they are untrackable.

Today's history books are mostly in paper form while there is rarely any ancient scrolls exist as original documents to back up these paper form books. Say, we Chinese are said to have more 5000 years of written history. However we have almost none ancient writings as supportive scrolls to allow us to reconcile how original today's history books are.

The trick is, if you want an ancient document to be passed on in humanity without much intact and to make it reconcilable (say, to allow a direct comparison of writings 2000 years ago), religion is only carrier to make it possible. That's what the Bible is.

Christianity is an emphasis on the term witnessing. God's prophets are explicitly called the witnesses of God. Witnessing/testimonies is the only way for humans to convey a historical document (as big as a whole doctrine). That's the way how past can be conveyed and carried forward by humans. Now how about the future? Can humans "know" the possible future.

Like I said, the nature of humans is that they don't know (directly) the past, nor the future. We have no direct access of both the past and the future. We have to employ witnessing to get to the past. Similarly, the only way they can employ to reach the future is through the same process of human witnessing. That's basically what the Bible is.