Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sy Borg]

Perhaps the case is that God exists, but it is impossible to prove empirically because the spirit and empirical are two completely different categories. For example, if one person overcomes seemingly insurmountable odds due to the strength of their character (as is commonplace in the Bible). In that situation, claiming God helped them is not an empirical fact. But due to the difficulty factor of what they achieved, it is problematic to conclude that they did so alone.

Very possible, yet only one of many possibilities.

Such as the power of placebo.

It can be hard to explain genius at times, such as that of Srinivasa Ramanujan, who created highly advanced mathematical theorems without any training, who claimed he was given the information by a goddess in his dreams:

https://swarajyamag.com/culture/the-dev ... eyond-mind

[Fanman]

LuckyR,

Very possible, yet only one of many possibilities.

That's true.

---

Sy Borg

Such as the power of placebo.

It can be hard to explain genius at times, such as that of Srinivasa Ramanujan, who created highly advanced mathematical theorems without any training, who claimed he was given the information by a goddess in his dreams:

Please excuse the tautology, but power is power no matter where it derives from - and placebo doesn’t do anything but create a false sense of security. The issue is whether the capability comes from the person or something extraneous. If the result of a placebo is human ability increases – where do we allocate that increase? We cannot factually claim it was due to the influence or empowerment of a higher power. But ultimately, we have no concrete reason to dismiss that idea completely.

[Sy Borg]

LuckyR,

Very possible, yet only one of many possibilities.

That's true.

---

Sy Borg

Such as the power of placebo.

It can be hard to explain genius at times, such as that of Srinivasa Ramanujan, who created highly advanced mathematical theorems without any training, who claimed he was given the information by a goddess in his dreams:

Please excuse the tautology, but power is power no matter where it derives from - and placebo doesn’t do anything but create a false sense of security. The issue is whether the capability comes from the person or something extraneous. If the result of a placebo is human ability increases – where do we allocate that increase? We cannot factually claim it was due to the influence or empowerment of a higher power. But ultimately, we have no concrete reason to dismiss that idea completely.

Hi Fanman. Long time no chat.

The placebo effect reduces the impact of anxiety (which is endemic to some degree) on our performance. For instance, if a person believes that a medication will heal them, then their more relaxed state of mind frees up the body's resources to heal. If an athlete believes that God is behind him, then all doubts and worries are gone, and there is just a focus on the game. Basically, the placebo effect helps people to get out of their own way.

One might also rationalise Srinivasa Ramanujan's case because he was hardly going to dream about math if he already did not have a head full of math. So he did the work and then his relaxed, dreaming brain got him over hurdles, perhaps just as Einstein's dreams did.

I am happy to entirely dismiss the notion of anthropomorphic deities, but not more abstract conceptions. The most godlike things as far as I can tell are black holes, stars, planets, moons and humans' purely subjective conceptions.

[Fanman]

HI Sy

The placebo effect reduces the impact of anxiety (which is endemic to some degree) on our performance. For instance, if a person believes that a medication will heal them, then their more relaxed state of mind frees up the body's resources to heal. If an athlete believes that God is behind him, then all doubts and worries are gone, and there is just a focus on the game. Basically, the placebo effect helps people to get out of their own way.

That’s the same thing I’m saying fundamentally. That it provides a false sense of security. Which precedes increased confidence levels. I’m not debating the efficacy or power of a placebo. My position is that there may be more to the phenomenon than we understand. That what we currently call “The Placebo Effect” may indeed be something more than we can empirically account for.

One might also rationalise Srinivasa Ramanujan's case because he was hardly going to dream about math if he already did not have a head full of math. So he did the work and then his relaxed, dreaming brain got him over hurdles, perhaps just as Einstein's dreams did.

I can see how this could work. From my perspective, it is a decent theory.

I am happy to entirely dismiss the notion of anthropomorphic deities, but not more abstract conceptions. The most godlike things as far as I can tell are black holes, stars, planets, moons and humans' purely subjective conceptions.

Fair enough.

[Sy Borg]

HI Sy 😊

The placebo effect reduces the impact of anxiety (which is endemic to some degree) on our performance. For instance, if a person believes that a medication will heal them, then their more relaxed state of mind frees up the body's resources to heal. If an athlete believes that God is behind him, then all doubts and worries are gone, and there is just a focus on the game. Basically, the placebo effect helps people to get out of their own way.

That’s the same thing I’m saying fundamentally. That it provides a false sense of security. Which precedes increased confidence levels. I’m not debating the efficacy or power of a placebo. My position is that there may be more to the phenomenon than we understand. That what we currently call “The Placebo Effect” may indeed be something more than we can empirically account for.

Donald Rumsfeld was widely ridiculed for the below observation, but I loved it and I think his ideas work nicely in such questions, and plenty of other threads.

... there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.

Those with beliefs in the afterlife now pin their hopes on domains or dimensions of reality that transcend time and space, but are unavailable to living brains without engaging in certain prescribed practices or exercises. Fair enough, we don't know what we don't know.

This situation can leave believers in a bind, because they can be manipulated by those pretending to be in touch with the ineffable.

A former believer friend described a fascinating situation when he was publicly "healed" by a pastor. Of course, people who are subject to a church healing ceremony will almost certainly feel a rush of adrenaline and cortisol, a heart rate increase, erratic or faster breathing and loss of focus. After all, they are effectively performing on stage. Speaking as a former musician, that can be be daunting.

My friend desperately wanted the healing to work and so did hundreds of others watching. He felt great expectation from the crowd to be healed. Peer pressure. After all, if he was not healed, that would not be the pastor's fault but his own lack of faith. Why would everyone else be healed, and not him? It would be his failings. So he convinced himself that it worked, he responded appropriately, and all went smoothly. Except he was not healed and, deep down, he knew it. He was not sure if it was his own blameworthiness or if the healing was not legitimate.

Like many Abrahamic and cult practices / strictures, faith healings are a self-serving, self-perpetuating system, a metaphysical Ponzi scheme.

[Fanman]

Sy Borg,

Those with beliefs in the afterlife now pin their hopes on domains or dimensions of reality that transcend time and space, but are unavailable to living brains without engaging in certain prescribed practices or exercises. Fair enough, we don't know what we don't know.

Unescapably so, but where does the power/capability I am referring to come from then? If you (or in a wider sense science) cannot give us a clear-cut answer then why should we believe that a placebo is a cause? Since when did the lack of an explanation lead to the anecdotal positing of one, why should we accept that? By reason of what justification?

[Sy Borg]

Sy Borg,

Those with beliefs in the afterlife now pin their hopes on domains or dimensions of reality that transcend time and space, but are unavailable to living brains without engaging in certain prescribed practices or exercises. Fair enough, we don't know what we don't know.

Unescapably so, but where does the power/capability I am referring to come from then? If you (or in a wider sense science) cannot give us a clear-cut answer then why should we believe that a placebo is a cause? Since when did the lack of an explanation lead to the anecdotal positing of one, why should we accept that? By reason of what justification?

There is much we do not know about the brain and body. Placebo is one possible explanation.

[Fanman]

Hi Sy,

There is much we do not know about the brain and body. Placebo is one possible explanation.

Of course, there is much regarding them that we don't know. My issue is that placebo in and of itself has no empirical mode of efficacy. It is the effect of the mind (or person) believing they have received something that has efficacy. This is why specifically why it is called "an effect". It's an easy way to dismiss religious ideas, but it is certainly not a perfect explanation.

[EricPH]

Like many Abrahamic and cult practices / strictures, faith healings are a self-serving, self-perpetuating system, a metaphysical Ponzi scheme

If you have never experienced healing through faith, how can you speak for those who have? I have had and witnessed a number of profound healings.

Like you, I am sceptical about some of the faith healings where money making seems apparent.

[Belindi]

Sy Borg wrote:

Like many Abrahamic and cult practices / strictures, faith healings are a self-serving, self-perpetuating system, a metaphysical Ponzi scheme.

In this day and age when we have huge existential problems to solve, people still need to be warned about miracles! It's disgraceful that in free countries, where the people are supposed to be educated, many good people still believe in miracles.

The difference between miraculous and other rituals is that the former depend on superstition and magic. Other Abrahamic rituals , if the miraculous and superstitious is excluded, can form a community of believers in a reasonable God .

[EricPH]

[It's disgraceful that in free countries, where the people are supposed to be educated, many good people still believe in miracle

Educated people can still have a faith and trust in God. Once you start to believe and trust in God and his promises, then miracles can happen.

I believe that God answers prayers in a way that help us towards eternal salvation. When I was diagnosed with a cancer that had killed a close friend. I prayed for the wisdom, strength, peace and serenity to do God's will, whether the cancer was a death sentence, or just an inconvenience. I can only say that from the moment of making that prayer, I became totally at peace, and the thought of cancer never troubled me for a moment.

I have never once prayed for healing. But the profound sense of peace I experienced, has helped me find a stronger faith in God. I have no reason to doubt, that many people will have been touched, by what they consider to be a miracle.

God's heart is with the poor and oppressed, sadly these are the very people who seem exploited by some religions.

[Belindi]

[It's disgraceful that in free countries, where the people are supposed to be educated, many good people still believe in miracle

Educated people can still have a faith and trust in God. Once you start to believe and trust in God and his promises, then miracles can happen.

I believe that God answers prayers in a way that help us towards eternal salvation. When I was diagnosed with a cancer that had killed a close friend. I prayed for the wisdom, strength, peace and serenity to do God's will, whether the cancer was a death sentence, or just an inconvenience. I can only say that from the moment of making that prayer, I became totally at peace, and the thought of cancer never troubled me for a moment.

I have never once prayed for healing. But the profound sense of peace I experienced, has helped me find a stronger faith in God. I have no reason to doubt, that many people will have been touched, by what they consider to be a miracle.

God's heart is with the poor and oppressed, sadly these are the very people who seem exploited by some religions.

The fact is, Eric, that modern education in developed liberal democracies ( but not of course in theocracies) is based on enlightenment values that include scepticism. Your style of faith suits fewer and fewer people, in Europe anyway. I guess you must be aware of this. This is a bad state of affairs as the moral code may be rubbished along with the miraculous stories.

[Sy Borg]

Hi Sy,

There is much we do not know about the brain and body. Placebo is one possible explanation.

Of course, there is much regarding them that we don't know. My issue is that placebo in and of itself has no empirical mode of efficacy. It is the effect of the mind (or person) believing they have received something that has efficacy. This is why specifically why it is called "an effect". It's an easy way to dismiss religious ideas, but it is certainly not a perfect explanation.

What the placebo does achieve is it allows people to get out of their own way. Excess anxiety is unhealthy and retards healing and achievement. To feel that one has backup - be it chemical, personal or spiritual - allows one to relax, which then makes it easier for the body to function smoothly.

I used to dismiss God as pure fantasy. Now I see God as real - a genuine subjective phenomenon. Behind us lie thousands of generations that personified natural forces, aside from, perhaps, the last one or two generations. So our brains have been largely shaped by our ancestors' beliefs in deities.

[Fanman]

Sy

What the placebo does achieve is it allows people to get out of their own way. Excess anxiety is unhealthy and retards healing and achievement. To feel that one has backup - be it chemical, personal or spiritual - allows one to relax, which then makes it easier for the body to function smoothly.

What kind of things have people achieved via the placebo effect? Have you got anything factual to back what you've stated?

I used to dismiss God as pure fantasy. Now I see God as real - a genuine subjective phenomenon. Behind us lie thousands of generations that personified natural forces, aside from, perhaps, the last one or two generations. So our brains have been largely shaped by our ancestors' beliefs in deities.

Each to their own explanations I guess.

[Sy Borg]

Sy

What the placebo does achieve is it allows people to get out of their own way. Excess anxiety is unhealthy and retards healing and achievement. To feel that one has backup - be it chemical, personal or spiritual - allows one to relax, which then makes it easier for the body to function smoothly.

What kind of things have people achieved via the placebo effect? Have you got anything factual to back what you've stated?

I used to dismiss God as pure fantasy. Now I see God as real - a genuine subjective phenomenon. Behind us lie thousands of generations that personified natural forces, aside from, perhaps, the last one or two generations. So our brains have been largely shaped by our ancestors' beliefs in deities.

Each to their own explanations I guess.

The placebo effect is well-documented. Online educators will know far more than I do. The placebo effect is the reason why researchers go to the trouble of conducting double blind tests.

I don't see my second comment as an "explanation", just an observation of an obvious fact that is usually overlooked. The fact is that humans have evolved with gods on their mind, and this will necessarily be reflected in brain structure due to brain plasticity and epigenetics.