Philosophy Discussion Forums

Present awareness wrote:I don't feel that anyone's belief, can be said to be better or worse then another's. Our beliefs are formulated through our life's experience and everyone's experience in life is different. Beliefs may be discussed, opinions offered, but seldom will a personal belief be changed because of someone else's opinion. The best we can do in life, is seek the truth in whatever form we find it.

But many people are influenced by significant or charismatic others. Some mentally competent adults are influenced by advertisers, religionists and even politicians. Children especially are terribly at risk of being influenced by those who would indoctrinate them thus disabling them as free thinkers. I think that to seek the truth each of us is better equipped to do so when trained as children to boldly question without fear of reprisal.

Children are very impressionable, and more often then not, they are taught not to question authority. "Do as I say". Why? "Because I said so", might be the answer they get. Those children whom are lucky enough to have wise parents, will learn to develop an inquiring mind. Faith, on the other hand, is something which you are supposed to believe in unconditionally. If you question your faith, then you no longer have it, so to speak. So is faith a good thing or a bad thing? If faith is a good thing, then religion is good, even if it's false.

The answer depends upon what one has faith in. It is good to have faith that one can live a good life, even if one has not been very good at living a good life, it is always good to have faith that one might improve.

It is bad to have faith that God or nature will provide security against natural hazards such as climate change, or health hazards.

I believe religion is a good thing even if it contains false facts and thoughts. Religion is not always positive as sometimes there is unrealistic conflicts and wars between different religions. However, if there was no religion and moral beliefs, what would there be? Religion is not always perfect but it allows people with similar beliefs and ideas to join together as a community and express it as one. This is not always good as we know there is lots of world problems regarding religions and so on but if there was no cultural indifferences, what would there be? I am not sure myself but is anyone? So I think it is necessary for religions to keep following facts and traditions even if they are false as most of them are positive and contain traditions that help the community.

It depends on the religion and how false it is. Now the religion of humanism may well be completely false but it's good in the sense that it copies or rides on the back of good Christian morality. The lack of bigotry against minority groups actually does deep roots in the Christian tradition of course along with human rights the value of charity and the abolition of the slave trade.

Yes, Ruskin, but I suppose that even you will admit that there are Christians who have been and are a disgrace to Christianity. Nobody is without sin, but some Christians including popes have sinned enormously and done so in the name of Christianity.

Obviously religion both helps and hinders humanity, and can help or hurt any one particular person, true or false....

But, in relation to humanity as a whole, we have to consider the time. Thousands and hundreds of years ago, religion was proper for Man of that time, suited his level of being and knowledge, and generally helped him. But now modern Man is far too "over educated" for such a faith-based system as religion, so while religion may have been generally helpful for Man in the past, I think it may be generally harmful for him at the present time, and it seems quite possible that certain elements of it could even help pave the way to His extinction.....

Belinda wrote:Yes, Ruskin, but I suppose that even you will admit that there are Christians who have been and are a disgrace to Christianity. Nobody is without sin, but some Christians including popes have sinned enormously and done so in the name of Christianity.

Absolutely there is a difference between what you should do but you seem to understand this very well. Not everything is relative to opinion, certain cultural traditions and taboos are but you know not to confuse the two because you have this internal knowledge within you of course.

Back to the topic question even though there is a (quite small) possibility that God doesn't exist in any form at all and all faith in a higher power is a complete crock of BS faith does have a massive role to play in human life, communities and cultures so it's still worth maintaining a reasonable faith in God (without resort to young Earth creationism) partially for that reason. The other reason being it's true and/or gives you a perspective of a objectively purposeful life/existence overall, that's the rock to base your life upon right there.

Atreyu wrote:Obviously religion both helps and hinders humanity, and can help or hurt any one particular person, true or false....

But, in relation to humanity as a whole, we have to consider the time. Thousands and hundreds of years ago, religion was proper for Man of that time, suited his level of being and knowledge, and generally helped him. But now modern Man is far too "over educated" for such a faith-based system as religion, so while religion may have been generally helpful for Man in the past, I think it may be generally harmful for him at the present time, and it seems quite possible that certain elements of it could even help pave the way to His extinction.....

I couldn't have described my opinion any better than this post, bravo. Though I would add the caveat that even in Modern times there are those whose outlook is very similar to past eras and thus benefit from religion's guidance.

How Can you know that a certain religion is false?

PhiloSophia wrote:How Can you know that a certain religion is false?

Excellent point, since religion can't be proven true, it can't conversely be proven false. Religions operate in the realm of faith not one of "proof" and "truth".

LuckyR wrote:Excellent point, since religion can't be proven true, it can't conversely be proven false. Religions operate in the realm of faith not one of "proof" and "truth".

Apparently, the brain doesn't differentiate between fact and fantasy anyway- so when we are eating, for example, the same part of the brain 'fires up' as when we are thinking about eating, or watching other's eat. So..the consequence is that the essence of religion, be it the idea of pure love, perfection, compassion or forgiveness, will have positive effects on our well being whether they are 'real' e.g our mother's love, or imagined (and so perfect -eg. the pure love of 'God'). If you build it, He will come!!

These effects are clear enough that someone of faith passes the same idea on to their children and so on, and of course, this comes with all sorts of cultural specific traditions and teachings which create a sense of tradition and belonging. All good so far.

The negative sides are obviously, that we are instinctively tribal and that everyone protects their idea of God, as if their life depended on it. We are terrified of the idea of this being taken away, as a child would be to lose its mother. And this is understandable, if it has been believed to be real, rather than understood as a 'special effect' of the mind. Also, it must come with a degree of very real social embarrassment to be last one to realise that it was all make believe. Easier to protest too much!

The sad part is the positive effect only comes, like the placebo effect, if we truly believe what we think is true. Pity we can't keep the idea of forgiveness, but lose the damnation and hellfire bit.

Lucylu wrote:

LuckyR wrote:Excellent point, since religion can't be proven true, it can't conversely be proven false. Religions operate in the realm of faith not one of "proof" and "truth".

Apparently, the brain doesn't differentiate between fact and fantasy anyway- so when we are eating, for example, the same part of the brain 'fires up' as when we are thinking about eating, or watching other's eat. So..the consequence is that the essence of religion, be it the idea of pure love, perfection, compassion or forgiveness, will have positive effects on our well being whether they are 'real' e.g our mother's love, or imagined (and so perfect -eg. the pure love of 'God'). If you build it, He will come!!

These effects are clear enough that someone of faith passes the same idea on to their children and so on, and of course, this comes with all sorts of cultural specific traditions and teachings which create a sense of tradition and belonging. All good so far.

The negative sides are obviously, that we are instinctively tribal and that everyone protects their idea of God, as if their life depended on it. We are terrified of the idea of this being taken away, as a child would be to lose its mother. And this is understandable, if it has been believed to be real, rather than understood as a 'special effect' of the mind. Also, it must come with a degree of very real social embarrassment to be last one to realise that it was all make believe. Easier to protest too much!

The sad part is the positive effect only comes, like the placebo effect, if we truly believe what we think is true. Pity we can't keep the idea of forgiveness, but lose the damnation and hellfire bit.

Thus the societal superiority of philosophy to organized religion. All the benefits of the "love of god" you mntioned without the convert the heathens (which comes out of the hellfire and damnation part).

Religious myths are historically false but sometimes express themes that are true enough. The same can be said for any important literature or other art form.

Religious organisations are good in the sense that man often cannot act unless the actions are orchestrated by leaders of the community of belief and practise. Therefore religions in their heyday could get people to do good as well as bad.

Religious organisations are bad when they idolise money, ritual, hypocrisy, persons, things, institutions, and beliefs. Idolatry makes people stupidly set in their ways.

LuckyR wrote:Thus the societal superiority of philosophy to organized religion. All the benefits of the "love of god" you mntioned without the convert the heathens (which comes out of the hellfire and damnation part).

Philosophy is essentially more 'vanilla' and mature than religion though, and humans do like excitement. As I was saying recently, in another thread, the trouble with being pure and good is that its boring. So, perhaps society will always desire the drama of faith, as it just seems much more visceral and intoxicating than reading philosophy texts. Plus, if you think about it, religion has built in social meet ups and parties to take a break from the more sombre parts so you get excitement without the need for any physical exertion.

I sometimes wonder too, if religion was created just because people didn't have tele or electricity or the printing press! Can you imagine how boring it must have been if your only entertainment was each other and story telling. Its no wonder the stories got bigger and bigger, until they were literally 'out of this world'. A lot of dark, miserable nights to fill.