Philosophy Discussion Forums

Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 5:28 pm I agree with Consul's position on this. He seems to be one of the few here who has a problem with Hamas's a mission of wiping Israel and Jews out of existence, and with westerners who share those views.

Being German, I feel a special historical responsibility for acknowledging the Judenstaat (Jewish state = Israel).
Note that doing so doesn't mean blindly accepting anything an Israeli government does!

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 5:22 am Isreal is the primary agressor. Isreal is a terrorist state.

That's just bull!
For example, when did Israel send hundreds of rockets into the Gaza Strip with the express intention to kill as many Palestinians as possible?

Consul wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 7:57 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 5:28 pm I agree with Consul's position on this. He seems to be one of the few here who has a problem with Hamas's a mission of wiping Israel and Jews out of existence, and with westerners who share those views.

Being German, I feel a special historical responsibility for acknowledging the Judenstaat (Jewish state = Israel).
Note that doing so doesn't mean blindly accepting anything an Israeli government does!

Yeah, I get that. If not for WWII I would have been born in Austria, not Australia. (No, I'm not Jewish myself).

The two sides have been at it for a ridiculous length of time. To claim that the fault lies with one state or another ignores this. It takes two to tango and it takes two to make war.

I suspect that most Middle Eastern and other Muslim nations are about as fed up with the endless war as many are in the west. At some point, you'd think someone on one side or the other would say "enough is enough". The fact that nether side does, and has not done for seven decades, is an unflattering indictment on each.

How staunch is too staunch? Digging in for five years would seem pretty staunch. A decade would be fiercely staunch. Twenty years would be hugely determined. Thirty years of resistance would be almost unprecedented. Seventy years is simply neurotic - locked in a negative death spiral.

A repost, to keep it under attention for consideration and also for the purpose of a link to this topic via X/Twitter.

The following organization might be of interest. Similar to eco-feminism, it seeks to establish a basis for peace in efforts to protect nature.


EcoPeace was formed in 1994, bringing together Israelis, Palestinians, Egyptians and Jordanians in the wake of the Arab-Israeli peace processes of the 1990s. As a tri-lateral organization that brings together Jordanian, Palestinian and Israeli environmentalists, EcoPeace's primary objective is the promotion of cooperative efforts to protect a shared environmental heritage.
https://ecopeaceme.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EcoPeace_Middle_East

Arab–Israeli peace projects
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2%8 ... e_projects

"Within the context of reason, there is no place for evil."

Philosopher Immanuel Kant wrote in "Religion within the Boundaries of Mere Reason,": "pure reason is the faculty of concepts, and concepts are not concerned with the inclinations, but only with the understanding and its object"

Therefore, according to Kant (who authored one of the most profound works on reason), pure reason cannot be the source of evil, which arises from the inclinations and desires of the human will. Kant believed that every human being has the capacity to resist evil and choose the moral path, which is the path of reason.

Reason and intellect is a higher good than war and revenge.

Philosophy can be the solution, and because of it, philosophy should be held responsible.

"Modern man is to be expected to evolve beyond barbaric practices such as war and revenge if it intends to secure longer term prosperity. Intelligence before practice means overcoming darkness before it was ever present, and thus, to prevent war and revenge in favour of reason."

American philosopher Henry David Thoreau:

"Whatever my own practice may be, I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual moral improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other when they came in contact with the more civilized."

value wrote: ↑July 13th, 2023, 5:50 amThere are rumors that Adam Sandler was in love with a Palestinian girl in real life.

The love affair of Adam Sandler and the correlated film that shows that Israelis and Palestinians can flourish together side by side, is described in the OP: viewtopic.php?p=444410#p444410

Consul wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 2:46 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 12:43 pm

Consul wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 12:19 pm What I don't accept is the unjustified violence of Israeli settlers or soldiers against Palestinians in the West Bank (who pose no serious threat to them):

You two views are incompatible. Fact is you do not really care about the Nakba.

I do care about the lives of people, especially civilians, no matter whether they are Jews or Muslims, Israelis or Palestinians.
However, given the situation in the Gaza Strip and Hamas' tactical behavior, how can their murdering and massacring of Israelis be stopped without endangering the lives of Palestinian civilians? – Alas, it can't!

Well they have tried everything else for 75 years. It inly remains for them to shame the Israelis by paying with their lives.
We in the West are complicit in this, by favouring the ultra right in Israel's government, and bankrolling the slaughter.

And how easy you, yourself repeat the dysinformation.
"Palestinians" don't exist trope. You claim that they do not represent a coherent ethnic group and if that somehow denies their rights as human beings. We heard this myth first from Golda Mayer decades ago.
We by exactly the same standards there is no ethnicity "JEW". since they are of mixed race and originate from all over the world, loosely connected by out of date religious garbage.
"Americans" by which I mean citizens of the USA also do not qualify as an ethnic group.
What other tropes have you presented that are engineered to deny Palestinians their rights?
And how can you so easily ignore the fascism of Netanyahu?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 5:28 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 5:22 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 7:24 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 6:30 pm

Human Shield??

Please explain how that works!

How do humans transform themselves from people to "collateral damage". Please explain the process.

Like this: "Human shields myth

Propaganda

Hamas, an Islamist militant group and the de facto governing authority of the Gaza Strip, has been using human shields in conflicts with Israel since 2007. According to the Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC), the war crime of using human shields encompasses “utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas, or military forces immune from military operations.” Hamas has launched rockets, positioned military-related infrastructure-hubs and routes, and engaged the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) from, or in proximity to, residential and commercial areas.

The strategic logic of human shields has two components. It is based on an awareness of Israel’s desire to minimise collateral damage, and of Western public opinion’s sensitivity towards civilian casualties.

If the IDF uses lethal force and causes an increase in civilian casualties, Hamas can utilise that as a lawfare tool: it can accuse Israel of committing war crimes, which could result in the imposition of a wide array of sanctions. Alternatively, if the IDF limits its use of military force in Gaza to avoid collateral damage, Hamas will be less susceptible to Israeli attacks, and thereby able to protect its assets while continuing to fight. Moreover, despite the Israeli public’s high level of support for the Israeli political and military leadership during operations, civilian casualties are one of the friction points between Israeli left-wing and right-wing supporters, with the former questioning the outcomes of the operation.

History did not start Oct6th.
Isreal is the primary agressor. Isreal is a terrorist state.
Palestinians have suffered 75 years of abuse; land theft; denial of human rights; and murder.
Isreal has created the conditions fro which Hamas was created.
When power is asymmetrical then different means to achieve goals are employed. THey do not have wealthy backers; they have no tanks; planes. Their resources have been seized and are now controlled by the terrorist illegal state of Isreal.
What Hamas did on October 6th was horrific, yet this seems to be their only means of getting their human rights noticed. Such act of violence and yes bravery against the occupiers are now back on the agenda, and as Isreal continues the starve to death and bomb to death the children of Palestine their support is growing and Isreal's apartheit is shown for the evil that it is.
One day US support will dry up, and the white settlers will be left to their own devices. Isreal has done nothing to accomodate the people of the region over the years but has chose to start wars and continue to occupy illegally the territories the UN has declared illegal. When the aim ends Isreal will end.

Putting aside your one-sided claims about Israel, I was simply pointing out the fact that Hamas is using civilians as human shields to use as leverage in the western media.

It's rubbish.
It ignores the fact that Israel is systematically destroying the people and infrastructure.
Did Hamas cut off the water?
Did Hamas cut off the electricity, internet and food?
The "Human Shield" trope is absurd.

Elided context restored:

Consul wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 12:29 pm [To Sculptor1]
As for the phrase "indigenous population", there were Jews in the geographic region called Palestine before there were any Muslims, and Jews have been there continuously "since time immemorial" too; so they are an indigenous population too.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 12:50 pm Islam only emerged around 500 CE, so of course Jews were there first. And before they were Jews (religious), there were people in the land (geographical/national) we now call Palestine, from whom the current indigenous populations descended. And didn't the Jews leave that area? The story tells us they were driven out, and I have no reason to argue, but a "continuous" presence? Perhaps not?

Consul wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 1:24 pm

"The Palestinians claim to be descendants of the Canaanites. We shall have to examine this hereditary claim[.]"

(Wolffsohn, Michael. Whose Holy Land? The Roots of the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs. Cham: Springer, 2021. p. 81)

...

You seem to think I have claimed that Palestinians are indigenous, while the Jewish group are not. Not so. All indigenous peoples are covered and included. My comment responded to your somewhat strange idea that a Jewish presence in the Middle East predated Islam. Of course it did, as the Jewish faith is much older. Please re-read the comment I wrote (above), and I hope you will see what I was getting at?

Consul wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 2:46 pm ...Israel's historical raison d'être is the centuries-long anti-Semitic oppression and discrimination of the Jews in the diaspora.

Really? It has long been my understanding that some Jews claim that God gave them the land that is now Israel? Zooming forward to 1948, land was stolen from the current inhabitants, and labelled "Israel", to appease Jewish terrorists and stop them bombing innocent civilians.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 9:57 am

Consul wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 2:46 pm ...Israel's historical raison d'être is the centuries-long anti-Semitic oppression and discrimination of the Jews in the diaspora.

Really? It has long been my understanding that some Jews claim that God gave them the land that is now Israel?

Yes, but:

"The Zionist movement was proclaimed in 1897 by Theodor Herzl. The founding fathers of Zionism were anything but religious."

(Wolffsohn, Michael. Whose Holy Land? The Roots of the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs. Cham: Springer, 2021. p. 18)

So, Zionism isn't a religious movement but a political one; and there are even religiously orthodox Jews who reject Zionism.

"The Jewish religion provides nothing even remotely resembling a manual for the assertion of claims to Jewish statehood in the Holy Land. Some fundamentalists are even convinced that the land’s very holiness enjoins against the establishment of Jewish statehood prior to the arrival of the Messiah.

Jewish fundamentalists can be roughly divided into two groups: the activists, who strive to help things along, and the passivists, who await the manifestation of God’s will. While the activists have involved themselves in building the Jewish State, which they wish to ultimately transform into a Jewish theocracy, the passivists await the fulfillment of their wishes with the advent of the Messiah, who alone can establish a new covenant. In their eyes, the activists, who have already taken the first steps in the establishment of the Jewish state, have thus demonstrated their lack of trust in God and are thus guilt of blasphemy.

The passive Jewish fundamentalists are deeply religious and in some areas thoroughly modern. Involvement in politics, however, is, if at all, justified only as religious policy within the context of community policy. For them, Jewish statehood has nothing to do with the holiness of the Holy Land. To the contrary, they argue that “Zionism is blasphemy”. Anyone who has visited Mea Shearim, the orthodox Jewish quarter in Jerusalem, has probably read this slogan on the walls and wondered why Orthodox Jews are opposed to the Jewish State and the Jewish national movement."

(Wolffsohn, Michael. Whose Holy Land? The Roots of the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs. Cham: Springer, 2021. p. 15)

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 7:52 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 5:28 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 5:22 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 7:24 pm
Like this: "Human shields myth

Propaganda

History did not start Oct6th.
Isreal is the primary agressor. Isreal is a terrorist state.
Palestinians have suffered 75 years of abuse; land theft; denial of human rights; and murder.
Isreal has created the conditions fro which Hamas was created.
When power is asymmetrical then different means to achieve goals are employed. THey do not have wealthy backers; they have no tanks; planes. Their resources have been seized and are now controlled by the terrorist illegal state of Isreal.
What Hamas did on October 6th was horrific, yet this seems to be their only means of getting their human rights noticed. Such act of violence and yes bravery against the occupiers are now back on the agenda, and as Isreal continues the starve to death and bomb to death the children of Palestine their support is growing and Isreal's apartheit is shown for the evil that it is.
One day US support will dry up, and the white settlers will be left to their own devices. Isreal has done nothing to accomodate the people of the region over the years but has chose to start wars and continue to occupy illegally the territories the UN has declared illegal. When the aim ends Isreal will end.

Putting aside your one-sided claims about Israel, I was simply pointing out the fact that Hamas is using civilians as human shields to use as leverage in the western media.

It's rubbish.
It ignores the fact that Israel is systematically destroying the people and infrastructure.
Did Hamas cut off the water?
Did Hamas cut off the electricity, internet and food?
The "Human Shield" trope is absurd.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... an-shields

Actually Hamas has made no secret of advocating the use of civilians as human shields to try to face down Israeli aggression.

A senior spokesman for the group, Sami Abu Zuhri, gave an interview on Palestinian station al-Aqsa TV earlier this month.

He said: “This attests to the character of our noble, jihad-loving people – who defend their rights and their homes with their bare chests and their blood.

“The policy of people confronting the Israeli warplanes with their bare chests in order to protect their homes has proven effective against the occupation… we in Hamas call upon our people to adopt this policy in order to protect the Palestinian homes.”

Credible reports from journalists in Gaza suggest some civilians are choosing to stay in their homes, ignoring warnings of imminent destructions that the Israeli military gives via telephone calls or empty shells “knocking on the roof”.

...

On 10 July the UN released a situation report which deplored the civilian casualties but added: “In most cases, prior to the attacks, residents have been warned to leave, either via phone calls by the Israel military or by the firing of warning missiles.”

But the Hamas-run Palestinian Authority’s Ministry of Interior has told residents not to pay attention to the IDF warnings.

It issued a directive “calling all our people not to deal or pay attention to the psychological warfare carried out by the occupation through rumours that broadcast across his media and delivering publications and communications on the phones of citizens”.

We don’t know how many of the Palestinian fatalities are the result of people choosing to ignore warnings from the Israelis.

...

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency has confirmed that Hamas rockets have been found in two of the schools it operates in Gaza.

Israel has released numerous satellite images of what is says are Hamas command and firing positions very close to civilian houses in residential neighbourhoods in Gaza – but most of these are unverified by independent sources.

It could be argued that there is nowhere else for the militants to place their missile batteries, given the urban density of the Gaza Strip.

My tuppence worth on this matter, is that the Nazi’s were on the side of various Islamic states and vice-versa, and both hated the Jews and wanted them dead. This was BEFORE the foundation of Israel! Palestinians being displaced is not the original reason for Islamic hatred of the Jews.

On the other hand, a Jewish chap on the news said that Israeli security forces are usually there to help in a flash, and yet he had to wait hours for them to arrive during the attack. Did the Israeli’s forces feign weakness such to draw an attack by Hamas? I really hope not because that would be evil.

If I may I just want to get to the bottom of the matter, as to what I think the real reason or the main recent reason for Islamic hatred against Jews is: paedophilia is widespread in many [if not all] parts of the world, Muhammed married a 9 year old girl, and so many Muslims consider it to be part of their culture and religion – even if their leaders state otherwise.
Now, if you do something like that to a child, you know it is evil and yet your culture is accepting it, which presents an immediate duality. So now men who do that will seek a scapegoat, someone whom they can say are in fact the evil ones! Worse still, there is a drive that goes with all this, one which will get terrorists to ‘drive’ straight into innocent pedestrians! All of which stems from the duality – which may not be present in other cultures who practice paedophilia in a widespread way.

How bad is all of this ~ as if terrorism and psychopathy isn’t bad enough...

On a documentary an old lady in India was asked, if ‘during the partition did the fighting get so bad because people had to leave their homes and what have you?’, and she said that wasn’t the main thing; she stated that the Muslims wanted to take all the girls with them, and the Hindu’s wanted to keep all the girls, and that they fought tooth and nail over them!

I hope that gives you a flavour of how deep all of this runs, and as to just how bad it can get. The Muslims will see the west, the Israelis and NOT THEM, as the thing which is the real evil!

The issue needs to be confronted honestly for there to be any hope of eventual peace, otherwise the duality will simply continue for ever. I know there are issues of lands/borders, historical wrongs and many other things, ergo they all need to be tackled one by one. ...but I think the above basis is the most powerful and emotive.

_

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 8:17 am The Palestinian people have been trying for three generations () to rid their country of a brutal, USA-sponsored/nurtured/financed, military occupation.

The view you're putting forward here is that the situation is one of military occupation. And that this justifies terrorism (the deliberate killing of civilians on "the other side").

How many other places in the world does this apply to ?

Russian occupation of Crimea ?

French occupation of Calais ? (That traditionally-English town).

This isn't "whataboutery". It's a challenge to you to expand your sympathy for the Palestinians into a philosophy of international governance that the "community of nations" can apply universally.

Because there is no moral right that is not universal.

If Israel would just give a little, offer the Palestinians something, at least a hope of establishing an independent Palestinian state, then I could see a way for this to be resolved. Otherwise this horror will continue.

The Palestinians have had their lands taken from them and been herded in to the ghetto that is Gaza where they have been forced to live like sub-humans. A perfect breeding ground for terrorism. Now Israel has used the wrongs committed by a small number of Palestinian terrorists as an excuse to undertake the extermination of what remains of the Palestinians and move into the last pockets of their land. It's just so wrong!

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 12:43 pm…the Nakba.

Some historical facts:

"1949: Israel concluded the Armistice Agreements with neighbouring countries. The territory of the Mandatory Palestine was divided between the State of Israel, the Transjordan and the All-Palestine Government in Gaza, under prefecture of Egypt. During and after the war about 711,000 Palestinian Arabs became displaced and refugees. 800,000–1,000,000 Jews living in Muslim countries left or were expelled during or after the war."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... n_conflict

"In the 20th century, approximately 900,000 Jews migrated, fled, or were expelled from Muslim-majority countries throughout Africa and Asia. Primarily a consequence of the Israeli Declaration of Independence, the mass movement mainly transpired from 1948 to the early 1970s, with one final exodus of Iranian Jews occurring shortly after the Islamic Revolution in 1979–1980. An estimated 650,000 (72%) of these Jews resettled in Israel."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ex ... slim_world

Yes, however that may be, the past is the past. Jews and Palestinians have for centuries and currently do occupy this land. Childish arguments about who was there first or who god gave the land to get us nowhere. It's the blood drenched present that is the problem. The extermination by Israel of thousands of innocent children for the sins of a handful of terrorists. That is the problem. And it will be a problem for Israel until either their extermination of the Palestinians is complete or a just solution is reached that gives both groups a reasonable living space and hope for a better future.