Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Belindi]

I love Guernica. To me, it is one of the greatest paintings of the 20thC. I say this even though its creator was awful . He was a prick to the women in his life. He was a sod of a man. But that's him. Not his art.

But Belindi I'm interested in what you say about art expressing beliefs. I don't see any beliefs in Guernica. I see a revolutionary way of looking at the world and of making powerful images. And perhaps artistic passion. But I don't see any belief. Could you explain what belief you see in this wonderful painting.

The belief is that the bombing of Guernica was pure evil no excuse.

[Sy Borg]

I love Guernica. To me, it is one of the greatest paintings of the 20thC. I say this even though its creator was awful . He was a prick to the women in his life. He was a sod of a man. But that's him. Not his art.

Arrr, everyone was a prick in those days. The things my relatives just two generations ago got up to were insane by modern standards. During hard times, niceness seems to be a luxury that most can ill afford. It's easy to forget that we have been through what may be the best of times in all of human history.

Guernica is a fantastic work. Really, Picasso was a designer and a cartoonist. Guernica is, to some extent, an "artoon", not unlike the art of good editorial cartoonists. Picasso had an uncanny eye for design balance, making his works more broadly appealing than even great works of his peers.

I've done a bit of "artooning" myself https://photos.app.goo.gl/4n4qpbnzB99katVE9 and it should quickly be obvious to most that it has none of the energy, vibrancy, power and poignancy of Guernica (I would have used another artist as comparison, but it wouldn't have been fair on them). The more we are involved with making art ourselves, the more we appreciate the subtle talents of true experts who have mastered the art.

The standards are real, just that not everyone in interested in them.

[Belindi]

Okay if you say so you are mediocre by some standard or other, I wouldn't know. But I am not being polite or nicey-nice. 'H--by" means nothing besides its implication that your honest endeavour is valued to the degree of how much somebody pays you for doing it.

I see hobbies as a major plank of mental health. The key to life is passion. You will find that people with passionate interests tend to live longer and better than those without. Consider Keith Richards. The man should have logically been dead over half a century ago. I am convinced that what has kept Keith alive through his many misadventures is a burning passion for blues music and rock n' roll. It's an obsessive love that has driven almost his every waking moment for the last seventy years or more.

Money and professional status matter in that they can allow an artist to focus more on that which they love. It doesn't change the love, though. In fact, the absence from one's passion while at work can make one's heart grow fonder, so to speak.

Meanwhile, some professional creatives can lose their love for the form through pressure or repetition. I have seen this most markedly in graphic designers, who start work as enthusiastic, bohemian artists but lose their passion from years of having to churn out rushed work, where there is no time nor need to refine and create. The art stops being expression and becomes regurgitation.

So, as always, "it's complicated".

I want to belatedly clear this up if possible.
What I dislike is the word 'H---y' which implies that work has more dignitas than what are commonly categorised as h-----s. I agree with your evaluation of those and I go further than you; I want all activities to be evaluated without being burdened by such a demeaning word.

[Sy Borg]

We'll have to agree to disagree. To me, hobbies are the stuff of life - it's what you do when you are relatively safe and free. The word's semantic means something very different to me than it does to you. To me, the word's semantic is joyful and relaxed. I see nothing demeaning in hobbies or the word.

You might think it's something that children do. Kids have hobbies. At what age or point is a child's hobby considered above being a mere hobby?

[Belindi]

We'll have to agree to disagree. To me, hobbies are the stuff of life - it's what you do when you are relatively safe and free. The word's semantic means something very different to me than it does to you. To me, the word's semantic is joyful and relaxed. I see nothing demeaning in hobbies or the word.

You might think it's something that children do. Kids have hobbies. At what age or point is a child's hobby considered above being a mere hobby?

I would rather be paid for what I enjoy doing ,and I have to accept the fact that what I most like doing happens to be unpaid. But I would object if someone told me what I like to do "It's only a h--by".

Children learn through play, and learning is what children need to do to become well -functioning adults. I see no need to designate fun or recreational activities 'h--bb--s".

Yes, okay we will have to disagree.

[Sy Borg]

I don't see "hobby" as a slur. I worked in in institution where a lifelong hobbyist was fast-tracked into a doctorate due to his great knowledge. I have known scientists who consider their work to be an extension of their childhood hobbies.

[popeye1945]

I don't see "hobby" as a slur. I worked in in institution where a lifelong hobbyist was fast-tracked into a doctorate due to his great knowledge. I have known scientists who consider their work to be an extension of their childhood hobbies.

"Art as experience." John Dewey. Very insightful and supporting of your thoughts.

[Sy Borg]

To anyone who sees all art is equal, what about:
- art produced by a passionate artist who pours their heart and soul into the work
- art produced cynically, for profit, which simply ticks off all the usual clichés?

I don't see "hobby" as a slur. I worked in in institution where a lifelong hobbyist was fast-tracked into a doctorate due to his great knowledge. I have known scientists who consider their work to be an extension of their childhood hobbies.

"Art as experience." John Dewey. Very insightful and supporting of your thoughts.

Yes, I don't mind what terms are used, but I do care about achieving flow states. If I don't have a compelling creative project on the go, I am lost. Then I end up haunting the forum ...

I'm even worse than Mum, who was always letter-writing as she avoided the hard task of creating new stories. Even GRRM is doing the same thing, so procrastination can happen to amateurs and master creators alike. GRRM has published dozens or articles and short works in the last decade instead of finishing Winds of Winter. Recently he wrote a tweet attacking fans, and it's not the first time. I suppose there's not much motivation to write for people you don't like (especially when you already have $120m).

It's interesting to watch. After a lifetime of leaning, hard work and development of his considerable talents, GRRM has the chance to create something that will be known as a masterwork, almost as rich as Tolkien's world. Now it seems he can't bring himself to do it because he doesn't like the people who are most attracted to his work. If he could de-personalise the situation and think more about the work and what it needs to be complete than some people on the internet, that would seem best for all concerned.

[popeye1945]

To anyone who sees all art is equal, what about:
- art produced by a passionate artist who pours their heart and soul into the work
- art produced cynically, for profit, which simply ticks off all the usual clichés?

I don't see "hobby" as a slur. I worked in in institution where a lifelong hobbyist was fast-tracked into a doctorate due to his great knowledge. I have known scientists who consider their work to be an extension of their childhood hobbies.

"Art as experience." John Dewey. Very insightful and supporting of your thoughts.

Yes, I don't mind what terms are used, but I do care about achieving flow states. If I don't have a compelling creative project on the go, I am lost. Then I end up haunting the forum ...

I'm even worse than Mum, who was always letter-writing as she avoided the hard task of creating new stories. Even GRRM is doing the same thing, so procrastination can happen to amateurs and master creators alike. GRRM has published dozens of articles and short works in the last decade instead of finishing Winds of Winter. Recently he wrote a tweet attacking fans, and it's not the first time. I suppose there's not much motivation to write for people you don't like (especially when you already have $120m).

It's interesting to watch. After a lifetime of learning, hard work, and development of his considerable talents, GRRM has the chance to create something known as a masterwork, almost as rich as Tolkien's world. Now it seems he can't bring himself to do it because he doesn't like the people who are most attracted to his work. If he could de-personalize the situation and think more about the work and what it needs to be completed than some people on the internet, that would seem best for all concerned.

I believe the terms are significant in a dialogue on the subject. Dewey has the most profound insights into art and the human psyche. It would be time well spent.

[Belindi]

I don't see "hobby" as a slur. I worked in in institution where a lifelong hobbyist was fast-tracked into a doctorate due to his great knowledge. I have known scientists who consider their work to be an extension of their childhood hobbies.

Sure. Great knowledge is not acquired without serious work. Why call private and unpaid work a hobby? Y work our friend's work was unpaid and unrecognised ,and subsequently it was paid and recognised by conferring a doctorate . I know that when you or many others say someone's occupation is a hobby no slur is intended. However to call some worthy activity a hobby is to legitimate economic motives as if they were more important than private motives.

[Belindi]

I don't see "hobby" as a slur. I worked in in institution where a lifelong hobbyist was fast-tracked into a doctorate due to his great knowledge. I have known scientists who consider their work to be an extension of their childhood hobbies.

Sure. Great knowledge is not acquired without serious work. Why call private and unpaid work a hobby? Your friend's work was unpaid and unrecognised ,and subsequently it was paid and recognised by conferring a doctorate . I know that when you or many others say someone's occupation is a hobby no slur is intended. However to call some worthy activity a hobby is to legitimate economic motives as if they were more important than private motives.

[Pattern-chaser]

I don't see "hobby" as a slur. I worked in in institution where a lifelong hobbyist was fast-tracked into a doctorate due to his great knowledge. I have known scientists who consider their work to be an extension of their childhood hobbies.

Sure. Great knowledge is not acquired without serious work. Why call private and unpaid work a hobby?

Oh, I'm with Sy Borg, but more outspoken. I think you demean my hobbies — my passion-interests, if you will? — as your words relegate them to a backwater in the world of 'work'. Work is a practical necessity, a necessary evil, in this world that we have built. But passion interests are much more personally meaningful and rewarding, I think.

I would like to see a return to the ideals of the Arts and Crafts movement of 100 years (or so) ago. Where crafts (hobbies?) are valued, and also a practical way to make a living. Given that degrowth and other environmentally-friendly practises are now becoming necessary, I feel we should return to this way of living that is not merely drudgery. But now I'm getting carried away...

[Belindi]

I don't see "hobby" as a slur. I worked in in institution where a lifelong hobbyist was fast-tracked into a doctorate due to his great knowledge. I have known scientists who consider their work to be an extension of their childhood hobbies.

Sure. Great knowledge is not acquired without serious work. Why call private and unpaid work a hobby?

Oh, I'm with Sy Borg, but more outspoken. I think you demean my hobbies — my passion-interests, if you will? — as your words relegate them to a backwater in the world of 'work'. Work is a practical necessity, a necessary evil, in this world that we have built. But passion interests are much more personally meaningful and rewarding, I think.

I would like to see a return to the ideals of the Arts and Crafts movement of 100 years (or so) ago. Where crafts (hobbies?) are valued, and also a practical way to make a living. Given that degrowth and other environmentally-friendly practises are now becoming necessary, I feel we should return to this way of living that is not merely drudgery. But now I'm getting carried away...

My intention is the exact opposite. I want to add dignitas to your leisure activities for reasons other that you are not a paid professional. And indeed increased leisure time and opportunities would help to calm the fury for economic growth.

[Sculptor1]

Art os good for the fact that the artist and craftist put in effort and engagement with the media. THe willingness to hone a technique and to get dirt under the fingernails whilst perfecting the activity with continual improvement and refinement.
This is not the only criteria, but for me the most important.

[Pattern-chaser]

And indeed increased leisure time and opportunities would help to calm the fury for economic growth.

There are those who would observe that this leisure time has to be paid for... And, in our AmeriCapitalist world, they're right. But actually, it's our AmeriCapitalist world that is wrong, and needs to be dismantled and abandoned ASAP, for the good of *all*. IMO.

But this is far away from art, good or bad.