Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Namelesss]

Speaking of 'fruits', jerlands, I wanted to thank you for this (sometimes straying from topic) fruitful, rational, respectful and enjoyable conversation!

[Wesgtr]

Those who destroy the lie promote Ma'at;
those who promote the good will erase the evil.
As fullness casts out appetite,
as clothes cover the nude and
as heaven clears up after a storm

The reason I'm posing this question is I believe the Bible is misunderstood and it's possible I misunderstand it so I want to explain my view. In a nutshell I see history as "Out of Egypt," we hear the words go forth and populate the earth and the law was condensed and made transportable. At the time of Christ the law was further condensed to two sentences ( Matthew 22:35-40, Mark 12:28-34) and man could go forth simply with the law in his heart. And that takes us to today.


That short version of history requires we fill in the blanks. It's really not in context because the context of the origin of the Bible isn't really understood other than a date estimated around 800 BC. The Exodus however is thought to have been an event occuring between the dates of 1500 BC to 1200 BC but those dates also reflect space time which is in a sense astrological.


So within those dates we have the Phoenicians, the Canaanites, the Israelites, the Greeks, the Romans, the Byzantines and so forth and each step or evolution in time there is establishment of some principles that have become incorporated into our western civilization. So what role has the Bible played in these evolutions? First and foremost the Bible offers man this concept of "God." Secondly I believe the Bible offers man a beautiful rendition of the law in the commandments and, I believe, completely expressed in the new testament. Thirdly I believe the Bible offers man a sense of history, of the past and a sense of evolution in that "one thing leads to the next." The Bible seems to me to have structured our thinking through this exodus in time to the so called promised land.


The Bible is full of contradictory notions however that make it very puzzling. The story of Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit and the notion of never returning to Egypt. The Bible literally plays with our minds and casts these images of concepts (i.e., "God," Creation, Law) that I question whether or not man would have had if the Bible didn't exist. So why did the Bible come into existence? Was it really to lead man to the promised land?

The Bible was created, in the history of Christianity, largely to have an authoritative set of texts for the Christian faith. Arguing for science over Bible or Bible over science may be overlooked when the purpose was an authoritative set of texts. The argument that there is no validity in the Bible because of historical and scientific research is quite extant in my view, since the Bible is a book of faith and since it is a book that may not be historically supported or scientifically “proven.” The science and history of it may not be found for some years. I do believe, however, there will be stones unturned in understanding biblical history. There have been some already. But, for those who want scientific and historical proof for the Bible or religion, why are we doing philosophy if you want science and history to do the talking? Does philosophy and religion have a place?

[jerlands]

Well I missed the definition so if you would kindly post that again. Is the ego simply self or is the ego a part of self?

Everything that you think and feel (feelings are thoughts), know, to be who and what you are, your complete identity as you know you/it, exists in/as 'thought'!
Ego is identity, thus, ego exists in/as 'thought'. Schizophrenic duality.
Being 'conceited' is ego related, but the definition of ego is not conceit, but includes it.

Identity, the true self, is more than thought. We can identify ourselves with certain things in life, religion, philosophy, music but our essence is who we really are. It is believed however we can culture ourselves through thought, gaining greater insight and taking different postures to create different effects.

So that I'm not mistaken, that should read "change a moment in existence?".

Of course. Thank you for even noticing! *__-

I believe this arose from your line of reasoning that change is not possible?

If someone robs from another does that change existence

Nope, the act of the moment IS existence. Could never be 'otherwise'.
Have you ever seen the movie "Slaughterhouse Five; a children's crusade" (or the book) by Kurt Vonnegut? It gives a fair example of this.
They mention that any moment "always was, is, and will be".

Equate 'always was, is, and shall be' with gravity. Gravity is something we interact with in this realm, it isn't something that determines our outcome or choice but unquestionably has influence.

and do people have the choice in commiting acts like robbery or murder?

When I mentioned that who and what we are manifests at each and every moment, that means that in a moment finds us with our murderer nature in the chute, that is what the moment will manifest.
Another moment might find us with healer 'in the chute', and that is what manifests.
There is no 'choice' in the matter. There are "feelings/thoughts" of choices and, thus the theory of 'free-will' based on those (schizophrenic) thoughts/feelings.

If this were true what is the purpose of law and why don't other men recognize the inevitability of each and every one of our acts?

Would you provide an example of what you're declaring.

I'm not sure how to respond. I'm saying that something is not philosophically/scientifically possible, and you are asking for an example of that impossibility.
I cannot offer an example of the impossible. I did show how the philosophically/scientifically impossible can, anyway, exist; in 'thought/feelings'.
If the Universe declares that I do not have a comfortable chair in which to plant me bum, at any moment, for me to 'change' that moment, or any moment, is not possible. All moments of existence already exist, AS IS! (God never 'changes'!) To imagine that by some magic 'will' we can alter Reality is no more than vain Pride. It falls for the 'appearance' of 'motion and time'! Falls for a mirage that we can actually 'do' anything other than perceive the moment! (Schizophrenia... enia... enia...)
"Take no heed (for the schizophrenic illusion)..." - bible

Something we might agree on is that schizophrenia is the mind separated from reality (to split the mind.)

You have a totally different "God" than I. My "God" game me free-will so I might develop for in choice we learn.

Same God, different Perspectives. *__-
Rather like this;
imagine a simple 'line', a 'string of points' heading off to the left and right.
A 'line'. Okay?
We can see the entire line, every point along it (theoretically), from end to end.
What are we looking at? A line.
Now, lets turn that line 90 degrees so that we are seeing only a single point at our end facing us.
Now, what are we looking at? A point.
Talk a circle and turn it on it's side and what are we looking at? A line.
Take a triangle and lay it down. Another 'line'.
And people, being what they are, will argue and kill each other over whether what appears to be a 'line' is a 'line' or a 'circle' or a 'triangle'!
Some might insist that they are all separate things.
Welcome to the schizophrenic world of religion.
What "is" it, exactly? All of those Perspectives, and so much more! But it is un-perceivable without all these Perspectives giving their 'shortsighted/truncated' (dualistic) input to the One Universal Consciousness/Self!

I don't know that we can ever truly perceive reality but rather think the best we can do is be rational, reasonable beings taking stride towards understanding.

And you are telling me that you cannot see how this might relate to Pride?
Really?
If that doesn't give the ego some food for denial, nothing will.
Perhaps the 'seed' denied today will blossom forth at some other, more fertile, moment; a day, year, decade... all is well. *__-

Yes, I'm telling you I don't see how free-will is bound to pride.

Perhaps the 'seed' that remains dormant today will blossom forth at some other, more fertile, moment; a day, year, decade... all is well. *__-

Pride might be thought of as excessive self esteem

Then comes the emotional ego validating determination of the meaning of 'excessive'.
My experience is that such terminology is most, vastly, often relating to "the other guy" and never to yourself!
Even Trump would never say that about himself, even though he is the poster boy to the world of 'excessive self esteem'!
So that would be a rather self justifying definition, facile for the ego's denials.

Ego, pride and free-will are parts of us, they are not the sum, they are not the self.

but I have also the option

Or so it might appear...

to interpret pride as satisfaction in achievement so what is your definition.

I understand the common definitions, which are numerous.
Considering my experience/Knowledge, I'm going to stick with my definition/interpretation;
Pride is judgment; the constant munching of the Fruit of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." - bible
"Pride is the belief in free-will/choice'." - n

Our senses provide us with a means of contact with our environment. Thought is not a sense but arises from our situational awareness including all the senses provide. Our situational awareness my be the limiting factor in our growth and direction we take in life.
.

[jerlands]

The Bible was created, in the history of Christianity, largely to have an authoritative set of texts for the Christian faith. Arguing for science over Bible or Bible over science may be overlooked when the purpose was an authoritative set of texts. The argument that there is no validity in the Bible because of historical and scientific research is quite extant in my view, since the Bible is a book of faith and since it is a book that may not be historically supported or scientifically “proven.” The science and history of it may not be found for some years. I do believe, however, there will be stones unturned in understanding biblical history. There have been some already. But, for those who want scientific and historical proof for the Bible or religion, why are we doing philosophy if you want science and history to do the talking? Does philosophy and religion have a place?

I have the view that all is philosophy. Religion is based upon a philosophy as is science so I really see everything as having a place in time simply due to the fact it exists. That's not to say all things are good, complete, or beneficial but it seems things arise because of a conditional state.
.

[Wesgtr]

Jerlands, you said "all is philosophy." I would agree that all have a philosophy and so all is philosophical. If you ask me, this is to say all have "free will" to think and be, and then what follows is our religious belief and the like. Some lack belief some have it. Some believe in Science or Alla; some believe in the Jewish God, or the Christian God. But, I do agree that everyone must have a philosophy and so all is philosophical. That's how I would say it.

[jerlands]

Jerlands, you said "all is philosophy." I would agree that all have a philosophy and so all is philosophical. If you ask me, this is to say all have "free will" to think and be, and then what follows is our religious belief and the like. Some lack belief some have it. Some believe in Science or Alla; some believe in the Jewish God, or the Christian God. But, I do agree that everyone must have a philosophy and so all is philosophical. That's how I would say it.

Interesting but the suffix -ical denotes "pertaining to" like biblical is pertaining to the bible. So philosophy would need to exist before reference or relation to it. But what is Philosophy if it's everything? I think of philosophy as a search, the relationship with self and other and all that entails. So really to understand Philosophy we have to understand ourselves and understand the other which is as daunting as creation.

[jerlands]

Jerlands, you said "all is philosophy." I would agree that all have a philosophy and so all is philosophical. If you ask me, this is to say all have "free will" to think and be, and then what follows is our religious belief and the like. Some lack belief some have it. Some believe in Science or Alla; some believe in the Jewish God, or the Christian God. But, I do agree that everyone must have a philosophy and so all is philosophical. That's how I would say it.

Interesting but the suffix -ical denotes "pertaining to" like biblical is pertaining to the bible. So philosophy would need to exist before reference or relation to it. But what is Philosophy if it's everything? I think of philosophy as a search, the relationship with self and other and all that entails. So really to understand Philosophy we have to understand ourselves and understand the other which is as daunting as creation.

Maybe this is a little like chicken and the egg
.

[Namelesss]

Equate 'always was, is, and shall be' with gravity. Gravity is something we interact with in this realm,

Not sure where you get this from, but I love a challenge, so;
'Past' and 'future' are no more than constructs of thought due to illusions ("in this realm"), appearances (motion, for one).
'Gravity', likewise, is a theory based on the 'appearance of motion', quite impossible, as Zeno proved millennia ago.
No thing changes, how can motion be an ultimate Reality? Just appearances in Mind.

it isn't something that determines our outcome or choice but unquestionably has influence.

There can be no 'outcome' when all moments/Perspectives exist simultaneously. No motion, no time, no gravity, but all do exist in/as 'thought'/Consciousness, like unicorns and purple flying elephants... Everything exists, just is not the Reality beyond appearances/conditional.

When I mentioned that who and what we are manifests at each and every moment, that means that in a moment finds us with our murderer nature in the chute, that is what the moment will manifest.
Another moment might find us with healer 'in the chute', and that is what manifests.
There is no 'choice' in the matter. There are "feelings/thoughts" of choices and, thus the theory of 'free-will' based on those (schizophrenic) thoughts/feelings.

If this were true what is the purpose of law

Ten neighbors get together to codify their mutual traits for the peaceful living of all in the society.
Seven of those men are naturally peaceful and ethical.
So a law is passed by those seven (they are ethical and do not consider that they need the law), and imposed on the other three, who of course wind up in the prison system owned by the seven.
The 'law' does not change anyone's nature. People with 'law abiding natures' naturally act that way.
Others do not, and the torture system of 'corrections' has never done a damned thing to recommend it other than act in proxy revenge.

and why don't other men recognize the inevitability of each and every one of our acts?

"Thinking men" do.

I don't know that we can ever truly perceive reality

There is not anything other than Reality to perceive. We can never perceive the Big Picture from any single unique Perspective, but all of Us together, simultaneously inputting Consciousness with Knowledge of Self!
Not THAT'S a Big Bang!

Now, how does this response;

Our senses provide us with a means of contact with our environment. Thought is not a sense but arises from our situational awareness including all the senses provide. Our situational awareness my be the limiting factor in our growth and direction we take in life.

Relate to what I said;

I understand the common definitions, which are numerous.
Considering my experience/Knowledge, I'm going to stick with my definition/interpretation;
Pride is judgment; the constant munching of the Fruit of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." - bible
"Pride is the belief in free-will/choice'." - n

?

[jerlands]

Equate 'always was, is, and shall be' with gravity. Gravity is something we interact with in this realm,

Not sure where you get this from, but I love a challenge, so;
'Past' and 'future' are no more than constructs of thought due to illusions ("in this realm"), appearances (motion, for one).
'Gravity', likewise, is a theory based on the 'appearance of motion', quite impossible, as Zeno proved millennia ago.
No thing changes, how can motion be an ultimate Reality? Just appearances in Mind.

Zeno's Paradox did not prove the illusion, it is the illusion. All it demonstrated is you can divide the result of anything in half supposedly an infinite number of times (or until you reach the atom, whichever comes first.)

it isn't something that determines our outcome or choice but unquestionably has influence.

There can be no 'outcome' when all moments/Perspectives exist simultaneously. No motion, no time, no gravity, but all do exist in/as 'thought'/Consciousness, like unicorns and purple flying elephants... Everything exists, just is not the Reality beyond appearances/conditional.

I think what your saying is that all possibilities exist? Wouldn't it be a nightmare to be stuck in one place indefinitely (that's what they say happens when entering a black hole?)

If this were true what is the purpose of law

Ten neighbors get together to codify their mutual traits for the peaceful living of all in the society.
Seven of those men are naturally peaceful and ethical.
So a law is passed by those seven (they are ethical and do not consider that they need the law), and imposed on the other three, who of course wind up in the prison system owned by the seven.
The 'law' does not change anyone's nature. People with 'law abiding natures' naturally act that way.
Others do not, and the torture system of 'corrections' has never done a damned thing to recommend it other than act in proxy revenge.

This is what the Nazi's did when thy outlawed jews. I could definitely argue the impact society has on the individual.

and why don't other men recognize the inevitability of each and every one of our acts?

"Thinking men" do.

Just point out one to me.

I don't know that we can ever truly perceive reality

There is not anything other than Reality to perceive. We can never perceive the Big Picture from any single unique Perspective, but all of Us together, simultaneously inputting Consciousness with Knowledge of Self!
Not THAT'S a Big Bang!

Now, how does this response;

It may be true that each of us a spark from the source, yes.

Our senses provide us with a means of contact with our environment. Thought is not a sense but arises from our situational awareness including all the senses provide. Our situational awareness my be the limiting factor in our growth and direction we take in life.

Relate to what I said;

I understand the common definitions, which are numerous.
Considering my experience/Knowledge, I'm going to stick with my definition/interpretation;
Pride is judgment; the constant munching of the Fruit of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." - bible
"Pride is the belief in free-will/choice'." - n

?

[Sy Borg]

What was the purpose of The Selfish Gene, for that matter?

To educate.

There is the thread's answer. However, not all education is equal; the ancients did not know much that we know now, leading to a number of misconceptions. Nonetheless, they did not know that so the intention was to pass knowledge to new generations, as always.

[jerlands]

What was the purpose of The Selfish Gene, for that matter?

To educate.

There is the thread's answer. However, not all education is equal; the ancients did not know much that we know now, leading to a number of misconceptions. Nonetheless, they did not know that so the intention was to pass knowledge to new generations, as always.

You're assuming what the ancients knew.
.

[Sy Borg]

What was the purpose of The Selfish Gene, for that matter?

To educate.

There is the thread's answer. However, not all education is equal; the ancients did not know much that we know now, leading to a number of misconceptions. Nonetheless, they did not know that so the intention was to pass knowledge to new generations, as always.

You're assuming what the ancients knew.

Who doesn't? Many assume that they know more than we did, that all of the following two thousand years (give or take a few hundred years) has been a waste of time.

The ancients wrote down what they knew, so it's hardly an assumption. They told us, including making clear that they believed certain viral and bacteria infections and brain disorders to be evil spirits, that can only be removed by ritual.

[Namelesss]

Zeno's Paradox did not prove the illusion, it is the illusion.

Zeno proved, LOGICALLY, how 'motion' is impossible, despite your possible day to day experience in the dream.
His logic has NEVER been successfully refuted.
Some wag heard his theory and thinks he 'refuted it' by walking away.
That is just ignorance, asserting itself.

There can be no 'outcome' when all moments/Perspectives exist simultaneously. No motion, no time, no gravity, but all do exist in/as 'thought'/Consciousness, like unicorns and purple flying elephants... Everything exists, just is not the Reality beyond appearances/conditional.

I think what your saying is that all possibilities exist?

I am saying that everything exists!
Calling something a 'possibility' merely demonstrates the lack of Knowledge that 'everything exists'!
Omni- = ALL inclusive! All 'possibilities'! *__-

Wouldn't it be a nightmare to be stuck in one place indefinitely (that's what they say happens when entering a black hole?)

Yes it would; see 'Hellraiser; Inferno'!
The stuff of movies and other imaginative fiction!

The Reality is that each and every moment of the existence of each and every Soul is an absolutely unique Perspective of the One, ALL inclusive, Reality/God!
It is not 'possible' to be 'stuck' at/in/as any particular moment.

"Thinking men" do.

Just point out one to me.

Whats the point? Would my words suddenly have more meaning if I named someone that you admired and recognize who repeated them to you??

Returning to the subject at hand...;
I will repeat that the 'purpose' of the bible is no different than the 'purpose' of all metaphor.

There is not anything other than Reality to perceive. We can never perceive the Big Picture from any single unique Perspective, but all of Us together, simultaneously inputting Consciousness with Knowledge of Self!
Not THAT'S a Big Bang!

[jerlands]

You're assuming what the ancients knew.

Who doesn't? Many assume that they know more than we did, that all of the following two thousand years (give or take a few hundred years) has been a waste of time.

There are many people who don't assume to know what the ancients knew. One thing that has happened over the last 2,000 years has been a rapid population of the earth.

The ancients wrote down what they knew, so it's hardly an assumption. They told us, including making clear that they believed certain viral and bacteria infections and brain disorders to be evil spirits, that can only be removed by ritual.

Who was this that assumed bacterial infections and brain disorders were evil spirits? I know middle age thought held this assumption but ancient thought was otherwise. Our conception of Ancient Egyptian medicine is associated with Heka (magic) but the notion of Heka isn't fully understood.


Even if we're shown images of Ancient thought do we really understand it?

[Sy Borg]

Who was this that assumed bacterial infections and brain disorders were evil spirits? I know middle age thought held this assumption but ancient thought was otherwise. Our conception of Ancient Egyptian medicine is associated with Heka (magic) but the notion of Heka isn't fully understood.


Even if we're shown images of Ancient thought do we really understand it?

Exorcisms were performed in Biblical stories to cure people from illness. This is hardly controversial.

PS. The virgin birth, crusade to decency and resurrection of the Jesus myth were borrowed from Egyptian mythology. It's the expression of human ideals of the time.