Philosophy Discussion Forums

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 8th, 2024, 7:33 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 7th, 2024, 4:18 pm Humans have always been violent. Skulls of early hominids commonly showed signs of a violent demise. Other highly intelligent animals, such as chimps (our closest relative) and dolphins are also notably violent. All three species are predators. Predators, by basically definition, prey on those whom they can overpower.

The world is an inherently violent place - it's a matter of kill or be killed. The biosphere has basically eaten itself into sophistication over around 3.8 billion years. Warfare was common in hunter gatherer groups and it continues to be more common, if less ubiquitous.

However, there is a survival advantage to cooperation. Large cooperative groups will defeat more fractured groups. So more large groups with specialised roles will proliferate than smaller, less cooperative ones. Instead of committing violence personally, most denizens of huge human colonies now only perform violence by proxy via the military, police, farms, slaughterhouses, prisons, security firms, etc. But the violence is still ours, committed every day on our behalf.

As a matter of interest, I created the first "professional looking" anti-bullying website on the net to seriously consider and analyse the legal aspects of workplace bullying, and also designed graphic anti-bullying posters. It's one of the few times I've made myself useful in this life.

This is disturbing, but I can't fault it. It's emerging that we think bullying is intrinsic to humanity. And so it is reasonable to assume we're not going to get rid of it any time soon. Our only saving grace is that co-operation, even in the context of bullying, is also what we do. But I am disappointed to consciously realise that bullying is not some childish aberration that we grow out of, it's something that most mature adults also employ widely. 😢

I disagree with the idea that bullying is "something that most mature adults also employ widely". I only bully insects and larvae that encroach my space. I assume that you and Mo don't bully other chordates either (maybe mice and rats in some circumstances). Why not?

Because, as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive. Our proxies bully so that the rest of us don't have to.

There are things that can be done to reduce bullying within society - like changing schooling to reduce exposure of vulnerable children to bullies - but these usually end up in the too-hard-basket, and vested interests will resist such changes.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 8th, 2024, 7:33 am It's emerging that we think bullying is intrinsic to humanity. And so it is reasonable to assume we're not going to get rid of it any time soon. Our only saving grace is that co-operation, even in the context of bullying, is also what we do. But I am disappointed to consciously realise that bullying is not some childish aberration that we grow out of, it's something that most mature adults also employ widely.

Mo_reese wrote: ↑October 8th, 2024, 12:42 pm Why is bullying tolerated or IMO in some cases encouraged?

I haven't a clue! But bullying does seem to be ... endemic?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 8th, 2024, 10:37 pm as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive.

Sorry, I can't see how that works. Societies need bullies and bullying in order to "survive"?



I'm starting to think in a little more depth about this. I wonder, what is the *purpose* of bullying? What is it intended to achieve? Anything? Or just misery for the victim — is that what it's about? Is bullying a mild form of psychopathy? [Psychopaths *enjoy* hurting others, and gain pleasure from it...]

As well as being a cooperative species we are also a competitive species. People throw their weight around as they vie for mates, dominance, wealth, power and glory. And it's not just humans who behave like this. In the competitive game of life there must be winners and losers. I'm not saying it's "right". It's just the way it is.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 9th, 2024, 7:23 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 8th, 2024, 10:37 pm as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive.

Sorry, I can't see how that works. Societies need bullies and bullying in order to "survive"? 😮

I'm starting to think in a little more depth about this. I wonder, what is the *purpose* of bullying? What is it intended to achieve? Anything? Or just misery for the victim — is that what it's about? Is bullying a mild form of psychopathy? [Psychopaths *enjoy* hurting others, and gain pleasure from it...]

Two quick examples. Farming requires the bullying of other species. Keeping dangerous prisoners away from the community requires bullying of inmates.

Just because you personally are not doing society's work does not mean that your hands are clean. Being on planet Earth means either killing and/or exploiting other organisms or dying. Whether that killing and exploitation is individual or done by proxy is a moot point, in context.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 8th, 2024, 10:37 pm as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 9th, 2024, 7:23 am Sorry, I can't see how that works. Societies need bullies and bullying in order to "survive"?

I'm starting to think in a little more depth about this. I wonder, what is the *purpose* of bullying? What is it intended to achieve? Anything? Or just misery for the victim — is that what it's about? Is bullying a mild form of psychopathy? [Psychopaths *enjoy* hurting others, and gain pleasure from it...]

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 9th, 2024, 7:07 pm Two quick examples. Farming requires the bullying of other species. Keeping dangerous prisoners away from the community requires bullying of inmates.

Just because you personally are not doing society's work does not mean that your hands are clean. Being on planet Earth means either killing and/or exploiting other organisms or dying. Whether that killing and exploitation is individual or done by proxy is a moot point, in context.

This isn't "bullying", as I understand it. It doesn't seem to square with any of the definitions I found, either. What you describe is ... I'm not sure of the right word, but it doesn't feel like it should be "bullying", to me.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 10th, 2024, 7:41 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 8th, 2024, 10:37 pm as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 9th, 2024, 7:23 am Sorry, I can't see how that works. Societies need bullies and bullying in order to "survive"? 😮

I'm starting to think in a little more depth about this. I wonder, what is the *purpose* of bullying? What is it intended to achieve? Anything? Or just misery for the victim — is that what it's about? Is bullying a mild form of psychopathy? [Psychopaths *enjoy* hurting others, and gain pleasure from it...]

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 9th, 2024, 7:07 pm Two quick examples. Farming requires the bullying of other species. Keeping dangerous prisoners away from the community requires bullying of inmates.

Just because you personally are not doing society's work does not mean that your hands are clean. Being on planet Earth means either killing and/or exploiting other organisms or dying. Whether that killing and exploitation is individual or done by proxy is a moot point, in context.

This isn't "bullying", as I understand it. It doesn't seem to square with any of the definitions I found, either. What you describe is ... I'm not sure of the right word, but it doesn't feel like it should be "bullying", to me.

Of course it's bullying. The stronger pushes around, or preys on, the weak

The quaint notion that we humans are different from other species and "above" bullying is nonsense. We bully other species, and we bully each other when the payoff is greater than the cost of doing so. In social species bullying is tempered by cooperation. When we cooperate, which is not always, we do so because the benefit to each is greater than what would obtain in a zero sum arrangement. Otherwise, we throw our weight around as we vie for mates, dominance, wealth, power and glory. If we don't like being bullied, the only way to deal with it is to stand up to bullies. But this is sometimes not possible or suicidal. In such cases, the best we can do is bide our time until an opportunity to turn the tables presents. And in the meantime we get on with shoring up our position relative to others. Life's a tough gig.

Yep. That's life in the ouroboros. It's never been easy. Somehow, despite - or perhaps because of - all the predatory behaviour, life has evolved from microbes to humans, from the stone age to the information age.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 10th, 2024, 5:10 pm Of course it's bullying. The stronger pushes around, or preys on, the weak

To "prey on" — to kill for food — is different from tormenting someone or something else for entertainment, for the sheer joy of hurting or terrorising them. The latter is what bullying is all about, no?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑Yesterday, 9:29 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 10th, 2024, 5:10 pm Of course it's bullying. The stronger pushes around, or preys on, the weak

To "prey on" — to kill for food — is different from tormenting someone or something else for entertainment, for the sheer joy of hurting or terrorising them. The latter is what bullying is all about, no?

No, bullying is just about getting your way. You may not need to kill and eat your victim, but if you do, it is just more of the same- it's all bullying.

The quaint notion that we humans are different from all other species and "above" bullying is nonsense. All species do it. All the time. And imaginary gods couldn't give a sh#t about it. Literally. Pompous, philosophical hair splitters are no different form the god bothers in this regard. And quite often they are the worst bullies of all.

Bullying is just feeding your own insatiable schadenfreude.

That's not a complete definition, I agree, but it does offer one valid perspective, I think?

No, schadenfreude has little to do with it. Bullying is about improving your chances of launching your genes into the future. Schadenfreude is just about revenge, about seeing the bully get his comeuppance. Schadenfreude can be fun, but doesn't necessarily improve your genetic prospects.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 10th, 2024, 7:41 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 8th, 2024, 10:37 pm as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 9th, 2024, 7:23 am Sorry, I can't see how that works. Societies need bullies and bullying in order to "survive"?

I'm starting to think in a little more depth about this. I wonder, what is the *purpose* of bullying? What is it intended to achieve? Anything? Or just misery for the victim — is that what it's about? Is bullying a mild form of psychopathy? [Psychopaths *enjoy* hurting others, and gain pleasure from it...]

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 9th, 2024, 7:07 pm Two quick examples. Farming requires the bullying of other species. Keeping dangerous prisoners away from the community requires bullying of inmates.

Just because you personally are not doing society's work does not mean that your hands are clean. Being on planet Earth means either killing and/or exploiting other organisms or dying. Whether that killing and exploitation is individual or done by proxy is a moot point, in context.

This isn't "bullying", as I understand it. It doesn't seem to square with any of the definitions I found, either. What you describe is ... I'm not sure of the right word, but it doesn't feel like it should be "bullying", to me.

I agree with you. I don't agree with those that equate bullying with competition or even dominance. As I said above, a bully takes advantage of an imbalance of power to humiliate a victim. Bullies are usually cowards and feel inferior and think they need to prove themselves by beating someone younger, smaller or less talented. They make terrible leaders. I've worked with and for bullies.
A good leader, wins via honest competition and is compassionate toward those which are disadvantaged. There is no better example of a bully than Donald Trump who claims that being a star allows one to grab (lowly) women by their c____. He also mocked a reporter that is handicapped by making faces and flopping around. Society is better off without them.

Mo_reese wrote: ↑Yesterday, 7:10 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 10th, 2024, 7:41 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 8th, 2024, 10:37 pm as per my above post, other people have the role of bullying so that societies can survive.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 9th, 2024, 7:23 am Sorry, I can't see how that works. Societies need bullies and bullying in order to "survive"? 😮

I'm starting to think in a little more depth about this. I wonder, what is the *purpose* of bullying? What is it intended to achieve? Anything? Or just misery for the victim — is that what it's about? Is bullying a mild form of psychopathy? [Psychopaths *enjoy* hurting others, and gain pleasure from it...]

Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 9th, 2024, 7:07 pm Two quick examples. Farming requires the bullying of other species. Keeping dangerous prisoners away from the community requires bullying of inmates.

Just because you personally are not doing society's work does not mean that your hands are clean. Being on planet Earth means either killing and/or exploiting other organisms or dying. Whether that killing and exploitation is individual or done by proxy is a moot point, in context.

This isn't "bullying", as I understand it. It doesn't seem to square with any of the definitions I found, either. What you describe is ... I'm not sure of the right word, but it doesn't feel like it should be "bullying", to me.

I agree with you. I don't agree with those that equate bullying with competition or even dominance. As I said above, a bully takes advantage of an imbalance of power to humiliate a victim. Bullies are usually cowards and feel inferior and think they need to prove themselves by beating someone younger, smaller or less talented. They make terrible leaders. I've worked with and for bullies.
A good leader, wins via honest competition and is compassionate toward those which are disadvantaged. There is no better example of a bully than Donald Trump who claims that being a star allows one to grab (lowly) women by their c____. He also mocked a reporter that is handicapped by making faces and flopping around. Society is better off without them.

I worked in the bullying field professionally for two years and ran a well-used and regarded anti-bullying website for about a decade, so I know very well what bullying is, more than most.

What you describe is just one type of bullying with one of the various motivations behind this behaviour. It is ultimately about dominance, competition and control. Humiliation is an optional extra. Cowardice too.

Many politicians are bullies, not just Trump. Kamala Harris's staff have had problems with her bullying too:

“Harris vocally throws around ‘F-bombs’ and other profanity constantly in her berating of staff and others,” McAteer wrote.

“As AG… Harris instructed her entire staff to stand every morning as she entered the office and say, ‘Good Morning General’.

“Gregory was also given instructions to never address Harris nor look her in the eye as that privilege was only allowed to senior staff members.”
[and from another]

...“It’s clear that you’re not working with somebody who is willing to do the prep and the work,” the former staffer told the Washington Post in December of that year.

“With Kamala you have to put up with a constant amount of soul-destroying criticism and also her own lack of confidence. So you’re constantly sort of propping up a bully and it’s not really clear why.”

I do agree that bullies make rotten leaders but some managers like having head-kickers on the shop floor. It's difficult for employees to complain about bullying managers because the chances are that the bully probably socialises with the person you are complaining to.

It seems to me that bullying specifically occurs in Modern human interaction where there are social norms around the concepts of fairness, etiquette and civility. Bullying breaks these norms. But the norms don't exist on the savannah, dark alleys and the battlefield. Thus why the use of bullying as a descriptor of animal behavior, for example doesn't capture the essence of the term.