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[Pattern-chaser]

This topic asks if it is sensible and reasonable to treat American and English as two separate (but related) languages?

It's a question that's often discussed in the field of linguistics, actually, more broadly than just the specific differences between two varieties of English: where exactly to draw the line between what constitutes an individual 'language' versus just a 'dialect'. My understanding is that the difference is rather arbitrary, and things often don't fall neatly into one category or the other.

Nice to see you, Thomyum2!

Yes, the difference seems arbitrary. Welsh, Cornish, and Breton speakers can (roughly) understand one another. My girlfriend (who was Welsh) told me this years ago, after returning from an Eisteddfod, where Celts of all flavours congregate to share poetry, singing, and related arts. I think she was surprised that they could understand one another; I certainly was.

I think my idea, that English and American are separate languages, is not so much based on the languages themselves, but on the culture that unavoidably accompanies each of them. The cultures are quite different, and these differences are reflected in our languages. America already has its own ways of doing (linguistic) things. They don't use the 'authoritative' English OED, they use Webster's, or Merriam-Webster instead. And so on. Our languages have drawn apart on an administrative level too. I think, taken overall, considering them as being separate is the most apposite to the real-world situation?

[Pattern-chaser]

...

OK, my mistake for mentioning empires, and derailing my own topic.

[Sy Borg]

Another thought, Americans are not exactly outliers. Does anyone here understand Scottish brogue without subtitles?

While American "Mumblese" has stumped me more often than not, the Scots and some other northerners' speech have also had me flummoxed. It's also fun seeing English footballers in post-game interviews, especially in the contact sports - I understand almost nothing of what's been said, even if the words are spelled the same.

And yes, P-C, you can't slip in mindless musings about Evil Oppressors on a site like this and get away with it. Better to drop outdated and misguided Oppressor/Oppressed ideas and consider the dynamics that have always been in play. It's nasty and unfair, but that's not only how human societies could build, life's "school of hard knocks" has brought life from microbes to cities.

[Pattern-chaser]

And yes, P-C, you can't slip in mindless musings about Evil Oppressors on a site like this and get away with it.

Not guilty! I indulged myself in a bit of a derailing rant, nothing more. And I apologised; let that be an end to it? Thanks.

[Pattern-chaser]

Another thought, Americans are not exactly outliers. Does anyone here understand Scottish brogue without subtitles?

Yes, I do, although the broadest dialects can include elements of the native Gaelic tongue too, which can certainly confuse someone like me, who has no Gaelic at all.

While American "Mumblese" has stumped me more often than not...

Yes. I particularly remember on the Mummy sequel, when Rachel Weisz played Nefertiti. At first, I failed to recognise the presumed-real Ancient Egyptian, because the lady who played opposite her, as her opponent, called her "Neffurr Dee-Dee". But it's not really fair of me to criticise someone else's language, and the way they choose to use, or pronounce, it. American, the language, belongs to Americans, the people who speak and 'own' it.

I'll just stick to English...

[Lagayascienza]

There is no reason to think that American, or any other mutually intelligible form of English, is a different language. Dialects only become different languages when they become unintelligible to each other. This has happened with to some extent with English in isolated populations where creoles and pidgins have developed, but American is hardly there yet and nor is Australian or even Scottish brogue.

The natural process of linguistic diversification is analogous to species diversification. If a members of a species are isolated, and if through natural selection the isolated population changes to the extent that it can no longer interbreed with the population from which it derived, then it becomes a different species. It's the same with natural languages. Once change occurs in an isolated segment of the population to the extent that the two become mutually unintelligible, they have become separate languages. That's how it works according to the science of linguistics.

National or cultural pride has nothing to do with it.

[Lagayascienza]

All natural languages evolve, and all natural languages are bastardizations. English or French or Japanese didn't just suddenly appear de novo. They had forebears, lots of them.

[Sy Borg]

Another thought, Americans are not exactly outliers. Does anyone here understand Scottish brogue without subtitles?

Yes, I do, although the broadest dialects can include elements of the native Gaelic tongue too, which can certainly confuse someone like me, who has no Gaelic at all.

I had a Scottish friend for decades. In that time, I'd say I understood about 60% of what he said. I liked what I could understand - a very bright and decent man - but his accent was horrific.

While American "Mumblese" has stumped me more often than not...

Yes. I particularly remember on the Mummy sequel, when Rachel Weisz played Nefertiti. At first, I failed to recognise the presumed-real Ancient Egyptian, because the lady who played opposite her, as her opponent, called her "Neffurr Dee-Dee". But it's not really fair of me to criticise someone else's language, and the way they choose to use, or pronounce, it. American, the language, belongs to Americans, the people who speak and 'own' it.

I'll just stick to English...

You should try being Australian and seeing American specials on Australian wildlife,where they refer to emus as "emoos", which makes them seem like avian emos. Alas, we who stick to proper English are in a shrinking minority.

[Pattern-chaser]

As a result of discussion here — thanks for bothering to contribute, everyone! — I think my idea that American is a separate language is justified backwards.

"Language belongs to the people" (who speak it) — I think Karl Marx said that, or was it Groucho? It doesn't matter. The point is that the people who speak the language, and use it, decide how and where it will progress and change. And Americans have already taken this control over their language, changing spelling and some grammar as they see fit. And because they have taken this right for themselves — which is totally OK — American has become a separate language.

QED???

[LuckyR]

Cool, I'm bilingual.

[Sy Borg]

As a result of discussion here — thanks for bothering to contribute, everyone! — I think my idea that American is a separate language is justified backwards.

"Language belongs to the people" (who speak it) — I think Karl Marx said that, or was it Groucho? It doesn't matter. The point is that the people who speak the language, and use it, decide how and where it will progress and change. And Americans have already taken this control over their language, changing spelling and some grammar as they see fit. And because they have taken this right for themselves — which is totally OK — American has become a separate language.

QED???

Nope. If it was a separate language, we would not be able to communicate with Americans online. I find some British isles dialects less familiar to me than US English ... Aye, 'tis a braw bricht moonlicht nicht the nicht!

You could say that the US dialect has largely been adopted as international English. The US were at the pointy end of rapidly-developing internet technology, and all the spellcheckers, tutorials and ESL modules, even programming code, were naturally spelt in Americanese.

Credit where credit's due, English should ideally skip the fancy crap and adopt phonetics, to render the language more logical and accessible. Whatever, each is vastly more logical and accessible than Mandarin, a language that screams "cultural gatekeeping" in its every nuance, making even quirky Brit English seem user-friendly.

[Pattern-chaser]

Nope. If it was a separate language, we would not be able to communicate with Americans online.

Speakers of the (Celtic) Welsh, Cornish, and Breton languages are mutually intelligible, and yet they are genuinely separate languages...?

[Lagayascienza]

Welsh, Cornish, and Breton are mutually intelligible precisely because they are not separate languages. If they have not diverged enough to become unintelligible to each other then they not (yet) separate languages, although they may separate dialects. British, Australian and American English are hardly yet even at the stage of being separate dialects let alone separate languages.

It's amazing how far a little ignorance can take some people.

[Sculptor1]

I think it is time to recognise American and English as separate languages. We all know that American grew out of English, but it left home a while ago now, and is doing very well by itself.

This topic asks if it is sensible and reasonable to treat American and English as two separate (but related) languages?



[I have more to say on the subject, but first let's see if there is any interest in discussing this...]

There are more differences between regions of the UK than there is between any British region and the all the US.

[Pattern-chaser]

There are more differences between regions of the UK than there is between any British region and the all the US.

Perhaps that is so, I don't know. But the differences are quite extensive.

Spelling — honor vs. honour.
Pronunciation — "tomayto" vs. "tomahto".
Vocabulary — faucet instead of tap.
Cultural — directness vs. politeness.
Grammar — "Can I get a soda?" vs. "(Please) may I have a fizzy drink?"

English
He isn't hungry. He has already had lunch.
- Have you done your homework yet?
- Yes, I've just finished it.

American
He isn't hungry. He already had lunch.
- Did you do your homework yet?
- Yes, I just finished it.

It is true that British dialects also feature considerable differences, but I think those between American and English outweigh them?