Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Pattern-chaser]

Pattern-chaser

were the Jews not living in Israel in Roman times [2000 years ago]?

I'm not sure. I've tried to research it, but there are very many accounts, mostly conflicting. AFAIK, the Jews had already been driven out before the Romans arrived. Then again, that seems to contradict the Bible story, which features Jewish characters in its drama, so...? I simply don't know.

But it is true, I think, that the Jews were driven in some way from their 'homeland' a long time ago. A *VERY* long time ago. The world has changed much since, although many indigenous populations remain roughly where they were, way back then. The Palestinians, for example.

[amorphos_ii]

I didn’t know that history , it sounds like Jews living in the Lavant probable felt they had to convert to Christianity then Islam! In which case those living in Europe had every right to take their lands back.

Upon reflection I think there wont be balance found and all of the Palestinians should be expelled. Send them to Iran by force.

_

[Mo_reese]

Why did Hamas attack Israel on Oct 7, 2023?
The war didn't start on Oct 7. Prior to that date there was no peace between Israel and Palestinians.
Israel had been occupying Palestinian territories incl the West Bank. Gaza has been under a blockade since 2007 which brought limits to clean water, electricity, healthcare, etc. Some characterize the treatment of Gaza Palestinians as apartheid.
Also prior to Oct 7, there had been many armed skirmishes between Israeli's and Palestinians with Israel arresting and holding without due process about 5,000 people.
In the West Bank Israel allows settlers to colonize portions of that area running Palestinians out and bulldozing their homes. This could not be considered peaceful.
Hamas believes that Israel's continued expansion is unacceptable and consider their attacks to be striking back against the oppression of Israel.
I believe that the Hamas attack on Oct 7 was an act of terror and should not have included civilians but Israel's response has been monstrous, shooting children, bombing refugee tents, and starvation for over a million people.

[Lagayascienza]

The Palestinians are entitled to fight for their land. However, what Hamas did on October 7th was very wrong and counterproductive. And the response by Israel was vastly disproportionate and so also very wrong. Israel used what Hamas did as an excuse to beef up its long-running extermination program against the Palestinians and occupy more Palestinian land. One can only wonder how Hamas could have been so stupid and short sighted. Attacks like that on October 7th will never get the Palestinians their lands back. And Israel's extermination program against the Palestinians will see hated for the Jews intensified and perpetuated. So Israel, too, shot itself in the foot.

[Mo_reese]

The Palestinians are entitled to fight for their land. However, what Hamas did on October 7th was very wrong and counterproductive. And the response by Israel was vastly disproportionate and so also very wrong. Israel used what Hamas did as an excuse to beef up its long-running extermination program against the Palestinians and occupy more Palestinian land. One can only wonder how Hamas could have been so stupid and short sighted. Attacks like that on October 7th will never get the Palestinians their lands back. And Israel's extermination program against the Palestinians will see hated for the Jews intensified and perpetuated. So Israel, too, shot itself in the foot.

I agree.
Some that support Israel's apparent goal to exterminate the Gaza Palestinians claim that Hamas expected and wanted the resulting genocide by Israel to gain sympathy from the world. But if Israel actually thought that why would they go along with what Hamas wanted?
Hamas committed crimes against humanity (war crimes) on Oct 7 when they involved civilians but Israel's response is beyond the pale.
A question that hasn't been asked, "What is Netanyahu's current goal?"

[amorphos_ii]

When I see names like Jerusalem, or Bethlehem, I mean, how can they not belong to the Jews. Lets say if we went to the other extreme and asked, ‘why can’t the Israelis just move out, America is much better anyhow’.

[Mo_reese]

When I see names like Jerusalem, or Bethlehem, I mean, how can they not belong to the Jews. Lets say if we went to the other extreme and asked, ‘why can’t the Israelis just move out, America is much better anyhow’.

The question seems to be who has claim to property? Just how far back can a group of people claim to have previously owned land and therefore it should be restored to them?

[amorphos_ii]

Indeed, and I don’t think that question gets answered. We all belong to what were once wandering tribes. We have all been defeated, lost lands and moved on before.

The balance is in the two peoples somehow living together. It seams impossible but e.g. Christianity overcame generational hatred between Viking families. There needs to be some manner of vehicle, and I don’t think that being behind either party 100% is the way to achieve that.

[Pattern-chaser]

Upon reflection I think there wont be balance found and all of the Palestinians should be expelled. Send them to Iran by force.

Why expel the Palestinians? They were there when the Jews were ejected (not by Palestinians, AFAIK), and they are still there today, just about. Why should they be removed so that modern-day Jews, nearly 3000 years later, can be 'given back' land in which they only had a share in the first place? In biblical times, the people we now call Palestinians were living there, in the Middle East, alongside the Jews. I can't see any rationale behind your sentiments...?

[Mo_reese]

Questions needing to be asked. Is Israel preparing to annex the West Bank? They have been expanding their colonial presence since 1967 when they seized the territory.
The bigger question is how far is Israel's war going to expand? Jordon, Syria? Iran?

[Sy Borg]

The biggest question that no one asks ... if Hamas is worried abut deaths, why have they continued to refuse to return the hostages? Hamas could have stopped the fighting over a year ago but they chose not to. Why would they be happy to see thousands of Palestinians killed, with each death almost gleefully publicised in western media?

[Mo_reese]

Israel has 19 prison housing approx 9,500 Palestinian prisoners/hostages. Maybe they would be willing to exchange.

[Pattern-chaser]

The biggest question that no one asks ... if Hamas is worried abut deaths, why have they continued to refuse to return the hostages?

The biggest question that no one asks ... if Israel is worried about deaths, why do they continue to occupy Palestine?

There are many questions to be answered here. These are just two of them; two of many.

[Gertie]

Questions needing to be asked. Is Israel preparing to annex the West Bank? They have been expanding their colonial presence since 1967 when they seized the territory.
The bigger question is how far is Israel's war going to expand? Jordon, Syria? Iran?

Since Netanyahu's government has realised it can get away with actual genocide they've gotten recklessly trigger happy. Netanyahu seems to believe he can only now stay in power via an Orwellian perpetual war or threat he's saving his citizens from. He sacked his fellow genocidal 'Defence' minister for saying there was nothing left in Gaza worth bombing. Now the pretext of extending 'buffer zones', which Israelis then settle, and which then requires a further 'buffer zone' to protect them, and so on. It's colonial creep.

If America won't act, and Israeli politicians and Israeli citizens won't act, then he'll eventually poke a bigger power who will I guess. Potentially sucking everyone else in.

[Mo_reese]

I am afraid you are right on. Netanyahu and Trump will make a dangerous couple. I do like your expression "colonial creep".