Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[UnconstrainedTime]

Here's my most precise definition so far of what I am pointing to . . .

In the Western Art Tradition, after a gradual long-term increase in focus on increasingly complex sets of options and data, while still consistently including relatively simple datums from a pre-defined set of options, there was an absolute change:

This absolute change is a change from the use of relatively simple datums from a pre-defined set of options, to artworks which only use things which can only be realistically represented by data-sets of many times the magnitude of those simple datums.

Notes on that definition:

“relatively simple datums from a pre-defined set of options” refers to notes in music, which are from predefined scales, recognizable objects in visual art that the are words for (words come from a predefined language), and the simple geometric shapes that almost all fine jewelry is based on.

“things which can only be realistically represented by data-sets of many times the magnitude” refers to natural sounds such as the sound of the wind or a waterfall, to the results of abstract painting (for example the marks on canvas in a painting by Franz Kline do not represent objects that there are names for), and the complex organic, rough or broken forms and surfaces in art jewelry.

Chris

[Sy Borg]

There has been an increase in noise elements in music, which was once constrained to squeaks on acoustic guitar strings, the rattle of snares, accidental ambient sounds and, of course, percussion. Part of the increased noise content stems from music becoming more rhythmic. After all, the role of most percussion in orchestras was exactly as a noisemaker, helping to create atmosphere and adding energy. Spoken words are obviously increasingly used. Then there are obviously electronic noises that give the music an air of modernity.

There have been attempts to render music amusical - basically spoken words over sound effects - but humans generally still want music's visceral pleasures more than challenging concepts.

Yes, there has been a definite increase in inharmonic sounds ("noise" etc.) over the evolution of Western Art Tradition music. There are sub-genres such as noise ambient now, as well as the noise type sounds alongside more harmonic sounds in ambient and ambient-influenced music.

Challenging concepts are usually too challenging for most people :) As they were throughout the development of Western Art Tradition music . . . Bach received complaints about his "unacceptably modern music", and people actually stood up, booed and walked out of the first performance of Wagner's Tristan and Isolde (which was the first use of a sequence of unresolved diminished fifth chords). But these challenging concepts have a significant effect on other music after them, even things that are hardly listened to at all such as 12-tone music where each note in the chromatic scale is given equal importance.

Chris

Yes, while the average listener cannot tolerate musical adventurousness, the elements of niche music can be noticed by popular musicians and adapted to popular forms. In that way, these acts have an influence. David Bowie was known for this practice.

When you spoke about noise artists, my first thought was Merzbow. First time I saw a video of him performing live, my jaw dropped. It was such a weird scene - people getting excite over wild noises like they would at a rock concert. His sounds are highly industrial, and I expect a statement is being made about technology/industry. Often these fringe works are underpinned by political ideas.

[UnconstrainedTime]

When you spoke about noise artists, my first thought was Merzbow. First time I saw a video of him performing live, my jaw dropped. It was such a weird scene - people getting excite over wild noises like they would at a rock concert. His sounds are highly industrial, and I expect a statement is being made about technology/industry. Often these fringe works are underpinned by political ideas.

Interesting. I'd not heard of him, so I listened to a few bits of his music on YouTube. Not to my aesthetic taste but he obviously has a following. I've created "pure ambient" music myself, which I describe as alien music or alien atmospheres, which I upload to background-music library websites and some of it gets used in movies etc.

Chris

[Pattern-chaser]

This topic/discussion is about art, so naturally there are many 'subjective' opinions that may be held, on so many areas of music (and art) it's difficult to keep track of them all! And I don't want to drag this interesting discussion down into details, perhaps unhelpfully.

But I would like to briefly defend percussion. The primary characteristic of percussion instruments is the percussive transients, but they also have notes as well as small explosions presented rhythmically (i.e. 'in time'). And there are other instruments, too, that feature percussive elements to their sounds. The obvious example is plucked string instruments, which feature a clear percussive start to nearly every note.

My summary would be that most instruments (including voice) have both notes and rhythm; frequency and time. Oh, and I think there is a large and unmentioned grey area between harmony and "inharmony", starting with untypical (of Western music) scales and modalities, and progressing from there, eventually, into pure noise (which I think we might reasonably describe as inharmonic).

[UnconstrainedTime]

This topic/discussion is about art, so naturally there are many 'subjective' opinions that may be held, on so many areas of music (and art) it's difficult to keep track of them all! And I don't want to drag this interesting discussion down into details, perhaps unhelpfully.

But I would like to briefly defend percussion. The primary characteristic of percussion instruments is the percussive transients, but they also have notes as well as small explosions presented rhythmically (i.e. 'in time'). And there are other instruments, too, that feature percussive elements to their sounds. The obvious example is plucked string instruments, which feature a clear percussive start to nearly every note.

My summary would be that most instruments (including voice) have both notes and rhythm; frequency and time. Oh, and I think there is a large and unmentioned grey area between harmony and "inharmony", starting with untypical (of Western music) scales and modalities, and progressing from there, eventually, into pure noise.

Yes, aesthetic preferences and areas of interest are going to be different for each of us

Natural sound generation in musical instruments is almost always a noisy generator, followed by a resonant system. The noisy generator is something like movement of air, a bow dragged across a string, a plucking action or a percussive impulse. That is usually connected to a resonant system, such as a column of air, a string, or a membrane. So almost all musical instrument sounds have a relatively chaotic generator which might be transient or continuous, followed by a resonant system which uses feedback to emphasize related resonances (often the harmonic series, but sometimes other relationships, as in a cymbal or some types of drums). In sound synthesis, this is done most directly by physical modeling, which uses algorithms to model the resonant system, and either algorithms or samples to produce the chaotic generator.

Yes, I agree that there is a large, often ignored, gray area between harmony and dissonance. Cymbals being one of the alternative types of relationships between pitches . . . not a harmonic series, but a different type of relationship. This interesting area has started to be explored by music with an ambient influence, with many natural inharmonic sounds like the sound of the wind or a waterfall being presented as aesthetically worthy of interest.

Chris

[Lagayascienza]

Yes, I agree that there is a large, often ignored, gray area between harmony and dissonance.

True. And that is why I still love my old acoustic piano made of metal and wood. The piano is a stringed and a percussive instrument somewhat out of harmony with itself. And whilst it is true that digital/electronic pianos don't need the same expensive tuning and maintenance of traditional pianos, and although the electronic versions are much cheaper, there's something about the timbre of my old piano with it's metal strings and frame, all encased in wood, that doesn't seem to be reproducible on an electronic instrument. Well, maybe it could be reproducible if the sound of my unique piano were digitally recorded. But, still, I feel something would be missing. The way I touch the keys seems to matter in a way that is not reproducible on electronic instruments.

[UnconstrainedTime]

Yes, I agree that there is a large, often ignored, gray area between harmony and dissonance.

True. And that is why I still love my old acoustic piano made of metal and wood. The piano is a stringed and a percussive instrument somewhat out of harmony with itself. And whilst it is true that digital/electronic pianos don't need the same expensive tuning and maintenance of traditional pianos, and although the electronic versions are much cheaper, there's something about the timbre of my old piano with it's metal strings and frame, all encased in wood, that doesn't seem to be reproducible on an electronic instrument. Well, maybe it could be reproducible if the sound of my unique piano were digitally recorded. But, still, I feel something would be missing. The way I touch the keys seems to matter in a way that is not reproducible on electronic instruments.

Yes, I understand what you're pointing at. I guess there could be a "Turing test" for your piano . . . to see if you could determine the difference if you were blindfolded.

Chris

[Lagayascienza]

LOL. Yes, I think I could. But I'm not sure.

[UnconstrainedTime]

I think you could tell the difference with a standard electric piano. But I would think it possible with current technology to replicate the sound and touch etc. well enough to not know the difference, if someone wanted to do that.

Chris

[Lagayascienza]

Yes, in these digital days, all seems possible. I guess they could even make an electronic piano that not only sounds the same as my old acoustic model, but which could replicate all the mistakes I make. You know, when you're trying to play a piece from the sheet music and haven't got all the fingering worked out. You need to play a run but you run out of fingers. Aghhhhh!!! Now a piano like that just might pass the Turing test.

[UnconstrainedTime]

Yes, in these digital days, all seems possible. I guess they could even make an electronic piano that not only sounds the same as my old acoustic model, but which could replicate all the mistakes I make. You know, when you're trying to play a piece from the sheet music and haven't got all the fingering worked out. You need to play a run but you run out of fingers. Aghhhhh!!! Now a piano like that just might pass the Turing test.