Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 7th, 2023, 11:13 am In a world where there are 8,000,000,000 humans, unwanted additions simply cannot be accepted, or even tolerated. [...] Even the drain on the environment of an extra child should not be ignored.
Human consumption is destroying the world. Anything that helps to ease that is good.
[Color and emphasis added.]
Vagueabsolute wrote: ↑March 7th, 2023, 11:00 am I would argue that a mother committing pain- and stressless infanticide, is close to synonymous with deciding to not have a child in the first place.
[Color and emphasis added.]
Scott wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 2:23 am I think [the question about infanticide] is one of countless examples that illustrate the absurdity of utilitarianism and/or moral consequentialism.
In practice, it is generally moot, since newborn babies are so valuable and can sell for a lot of money.
Even human egg cells can be sold for a good amount of money.
So wasting either is like flushing money down the toilet.
If you have either and don't want them, you can sell them. It's a kind helpful way to make some money.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 8th, 2023, 10:37 am Wow! Even though they are taken out of the context of your post, these are, er, surprising sentiments. Only an American would see profit as being relevant to a discussion like this one? Just: Wow!Hi, Pattern-chaser,
Thank you for your reply.
I'll use green for money, and red for utilitarianism and/or non-defensive violence (e.g. murder, rape, slavery, etc.).
I imagine the way you feel about (1) peaceful pro-freedom people such as myself seeing ways to kindly and profitably create wealth by engaging in peaceful consensual mutually beneficial transactions involving money is roughly analogous to the way I feel about (2) violent statists and/or violent utilitarians supporting non-defensive violence (e.g. murder, slavery, rape, etc.).
Granted, my overall negative emotions or disturbance is probably much less since I have consistent inner peace (a.k.a. true happiness), and since I do not have any expectations at all, and since I don't engage in judgemental moralizing at all but rather I practice unconditional love and unconditional forgiveness. So you possibly may never see me use a puke face at all (""), not that this human body of mine never gets sick.
Most likely, even hearing about the very things that would sicken me most (e.g. the murdering of newborn babies) won't make me so bothered, at least not as sickened ("") as you may get by the thought of peaceful pro-freedom people peacefully making money by voluntarily engaging in consensual mutually beneficial transactions. Needless to say, wealth and making money is not a zero sum game, since when free people engage in voluntary consensual transactions wealth is thereby created due to the subjective nature of value. (Granted, violent anti-freedom people who support non-defensive state-sponsored violence and/or who support violently state-run economies might use an absurd objective theory of value, treating wealth as if it was a zero-sum game while doing their violent utilitarian calculations to decide who to murder, enslave, or rape, etc.).
In a discussion about infanticide or such, I doubt you are correct that only an American would notice and propose a mutually profitable non-violent solution as being preferable to murdering a newborn baby or other utilitarian violence.
Regardless, even by American standards, I am definitely and openly (and I quote) "an extremist and a fundamentalist when it comes to supporting freedom and peace".
To suggest that the average American supports peace and freedom as much as I do is (IMO) an undue compliment to the average American. Even by American standards, I think I am significantly above average in my support for peace and freedom and in my opposition to non-defensive violence (e.g. rape, murder, slavery, etc.). Americans may be more opposed to state-sponsored non-defensive violence (e.g. rape, murder, slavery, etc.) than our big government sisterlands in Europe, but the aggressively violent imperialistically genocidal taxing monarchies that originally invaded America have not been fully outgrown even here even after tea parties and such. While it is surely worse in many countries including especially much of Europe, particularly in countries that still have rich kings and queens sitting on their piles of violently stolen wealth, the lingering violent European imperialistic culture such as that exemplified by "manifest destiny" and classism itself still ripple in our zeitgeist. Granted, a native American in a reservation might be able to explain that better than even I can. Even Nazi Germany didn't put up numbers to rival the genocides and death rates and violent taxation and wealth stealing and land grabs of the violent big government monarchies from countries like England and Spain. If such countries are doing even moderately okay financially now, it's because they are thieves, and it's directly connected to why poor countries suffer the way they do even when they have amazing reservoirs of natural resources (i.e. wealth). I don't doubt that fading monarchies would struggle to make an honest buck. Peaceful freedom-supporting people create wealth; others violently steal it and treat wealth like a zero-sum gum. Peaceful people create; Aggressively violent people destroy. They murder, they rob, they rape, they steal, they do forced population control or such, they kill, and often they say the non-defensive violence they do is for the greater good. As I wrote in my book, In It Together, "self-proclaimed utilitarians may be the most dangerous people, if not for their self-righteousness, then for the eager willingness with which they commit violent atrocities."
Violent utilitarians and other supporters of non-defensive violence may strongly agree when you say things like, "Anything that helps to ease that is good." They may say, the ends justify the means, even when those means are non-defensive violence such as murder, rape, and slavery.
I'm sure there are many people who are money-averse.
I'm violence-averse.
I'm murder-averse.
Not averse enough to put up a puke face (""), but I think you understand my position on it.
Thank you,
Scott
"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."
I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.