Philosophy Discussion Forums

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 8:47 am

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 6:37 am Only small children and maybe lunatics believe Santa Claus and magic are real.

There is substantially more evidence that some kind of God exists. Even Einstein thought so.

Thats a funny place to start.
Surely it would be easier to come down a chimney despite being fat to every child's house, than create the entire universe from nothing?

SO what do you mean by the God of Abraham?
I am pretty sure that einstein specifically and explicitly denies the existence of such a being.

The God of Abraham is the God the Jews worshipped: the single Creator and sustainer of the universe.

Einstein did not believe in that God, but he believed in some kind of God and truly resented being cited by atheists as one of their own as the following quote proves.

"There are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views."

Steven Weinberg, Physicist Nobel Prize

"It seems to me that if the word "God" is to be of any use, it should be taken to mean an interested God, a creator and lawgiver who has established not only the laws of nature and the universe but also standards of good and evil, some personality that is concerned with our actions, something in short that is appropriate for us to worship. This is the God that has mattered to men and women throughout history."

George Smoot, Physicist Nobel Prize

"There is no doubt that a parallel exists between the big bang as an event and the Christian notion of creation from nothing."

So it is clear that Einstein was not on board with the God of Abraham, but it is not difficult to think that the God of which he speaks has at least some clear resemblance to the God of Genesis who wrote the book of laws by which the universe is governed.

Albert Einstein, Physics Nobel Prize
"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God." And again, on a later occasion, Einstein said “... everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe—a Spirit vastly superior to that of man.” Albert Einstein

Charlemagne wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 7:54 pm This is not the same as another thread here with a similar title

I can see why atheists would regard so many gods as impossible . I also regard them as impossible. What I'd like to know is whether they regard the God of Abraham as equally impossible, since that God has proven to have considerably more historical staying power.

Your thoughts?

What's your criteria for establishing what is or isn't possible, and more or less possible?

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 2:35 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 8:47 am

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 6:37 am Only small children and maybe lunatics believe Santa Claus and magic are real.

There is substantially more evidence that some kind of God exists. Even Einstein thought so.

Thats a funny place to start.
Surely it would be easier to come down a chimney despite being fat to every child's house, than create the entire universe from nothing?

SO what do you mean by the God of Abraham?
I am pretty sure that einstein specifically and explicitly denies the existence of such a being.

The God of Abraham is the God the Jews worshipped: the single Creator and sustainer of the universe.

Einstein did not believe in that God, but he believed in some kind of God and truly resented being cited by atheists as one of their own as the following quote proves.

"There are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views."

So you only mentioned Einstein to annoy the atheists- funny.

"God is the result of human weakness", Einstein..

So it's this sort of god you want to discuss is it?

SO here is a start to your definition:

"The God of Abraham is the God the Jews worshipped: the single Creator and sustainer of the universe."

Where did the Jews get the idea for this entity?

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 8:44 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 1:38 am

Charlemagne wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 7:54 pm This is not the same as another thread here with a similar title

I can see why atheists would regard so many gods as impossible . I also regard them as impossible. What I'd like to know is whether they regard the God of Abraham as equally impossible, since that God has proven to have considerably more historical staying power.

Your thoughts?

The way that I interpret the word impossible is not merely that a thing is not real, but that it cannot be real in any and all possible circumstances. Thus it is not sufficient to prove something is not real to find it as impossible.

Thus for me, the Christian god is both not real and not impossible. Not unlike Santa, or magic.

So you are implying here that Santa is not impossible.
Trouble is that you could mean anything by Santa.
If you insist that there is a being that can follow the night around the planet visiting every single home to give children a gift and manages to come down a chimney pot despite his obvious girth, then you would have to admit that is impossible within the constraints of physics.
So surely a clear definition of that is meant be TGodofA, might be a good place to start?

Well, Santa goes by the moniker of Jolly ol St Nick. Was there a St Nicholas? But wait a minute, doesn't Santa fly around the world and go down chimneys? That's a story ABOUT Santa but ISN'T Santa. Just as Marie Antoinette was a REAL person even though the STORY of her saying "let them eat cake" is not real.

Gertie wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 3:47 pm

Charlemagne wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 7:54 pm This is not the same as another thread here with a similar title

I can see why atheists would regard so many gods as impossible . I also regard them as impossible. What I'd like to know is whether they regard the God of Abraham as equally impossible, since that God has proven to have considerably more historical staying power.

Your thoughts?

What's your criteria for establishing what is or isn't possible, and more or less possible?

Evidence that lends credibility.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 4:11 pm

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 2:35 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 8:47 am

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 6:37 am Only small children and maybe lunatics believe Santa Claus and magic are real.

There is substantially more evidence that some kind of God exists. Even Einstein thought so.

Thats a funny place to start.
Surely it would be easier to come down a chimney despite being fat to every child's house, than create the entire universe from nothing?

SO what do you mean by the God of Abraham?
I am pretty sure that einstein specifically and explicitly denies the existence of such a being.

The God of Abraham is the God the Jews worshipped: the single Creator and sustainer of the universe.

Einstein did not believe in that God, but he believed in some kind of God and truly resented being cited by atheists as one of their own as the following quote proves.

"There are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views."

So you only mentioned Einstein to annoy the atheists- funny.

"God is the result of human weakness", Einstein..

So it's this sort of god you want to discuss is it?

SO here is a start to your definition:

"The God of Abraham is the God the Jews worshipped: the single Creator and sustainer of the universe."

Where did the Jews get the idea for this entity?

Divine inspiration, which all the other religions clearly did not get since they were polytheistic.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 4:11 pm

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 2:35 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 8:47 am

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 6:37 am Only small children and maybe lunatics believe Santa Claus and magic are real.

There is substantially more evidence that some kind of God exists. Even Einstein thought so.

Thats a funny place to start.
Surely it would be easier to come down a chimney despite being fat to every child's house, than create the entire universe from nothing?

SO what do you mean by the God of Abraham?
I am pretty sure that einstein specifically and explicitly denies the existence of such a being.

The God of Abraham is the God the Jews worshipped: the single Creator and sustainer of the universe.

Einstein did not believe in that God, but he believed in some kind of God and truly resented being cited by atheists as one of their own as the following quote proves.

"There are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views."

So you only mentioned Einstein to annoy the atheists- funny.

"God is the result of human weakness", Einstein..

So it's this sort of god you want to discuss is it?

SO here is a start to your definition:

"The God of Abraham is the God the Jews worshipped: the single Creator and sustainer of the universe."

Where did the Jews get the idea for this entity?

I think it was Einstein who wanted to annoy the atheists because they had abused him.
Are you annoyed by Einstein?

Abdus Salam, Nobel Prize Physics

“This sense of wonder leads most scientists to a Superior Being – der Alte, the Old One, as Einstein affectionately called the Deity – a Superior Intelligence, the Lord of all Creation and Natural Law.”

It is this aspect of Einstein's thinking that is consistent with the God of Abraham, though he never got much beyond this way of thinking. Einstein could not see the point of a personal God, and it would be interesting to know his final thoughts; whether he had come a belief that he had short-changed God as Father; whether he had come at last to see that reason in the head is so demonically deft at short-changing reason in the heart.

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 9:22 pm

Gertie wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 3:47 pm

Charlemagne wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 7:54 pm This is not the same as another thread here with a similar title

I can see why atheists would regard so many gods as impossible . I also regard them as impossible. What I'd like to know is whether they regard the God of Abraham as equally impossible, since that God has proven to have considerably more historical staying power.

Your thoughts?

What's your criteria for establishing what is or isn't possible, and more or less possible?

Evidence that lends credibility.

OK. Well many ancient cultures came up with creation myths, as best guesses in terms of their different cultures.  Why?  Because it's a mystery beyond contempoary explanations 'of this world'.  The Genesis myth of the Jews is one such 'God of the Gaps' myth, associated with their tribal god Yahweh.  There's no more evidence for that myth than any other imo. 

The Yahweh of that myth  intervened, according to his believers, specifically in relation to his own tribe/chosen people, as did many other competing contemporary gods.  The tribe's fortunes being associated with Yahweh's favour or disfavour.  If there's one underlying theological  theme throughout the OT, as snapshots of a tribal history of sorts, I'd say it's that.  A tribal god which rewards loyalty and obedience to his law with prosperity, territory and victory in battles.  And punishes disobedience with enslavement, occupation and natural disaster.  Again  providing an explanation, now for the vicissitudes of life in a world of competing cultures and gods.  This smacks to me of an invented tribal god, much like many others.

Is there compelling evidence for this all being true?  Well, if I was introduced to Yahweh in the same way I learned about say  Rig Veda, Norse, Greek, Babylonian or Celtic mythology, I don't see why I'd see it as special or having more credible evidence.  What extra credible evidence do you see?

However, I don't think the lack of credible evidence makes any of those myths impossible.  We have no way of establishing the impossibility of something which can't be falsified, that's the point of the Flying Spaghetti Monster waggish/dickish counter example.

LuckyR wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 8:42 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 8:44 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑December 1st, 2022, 1:38 am

Charlemagne wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 7:54 pm This is not the same as another thread here with a similar title

I can see why atheists would regard so many gods as impossible . I also regard them as impossible. What I'd like to know is whether they regard the God of Abraham as equally impossible, since that God has proven to have considerably more historical staying power.

Your thoughts?

The way that I interpret the word impossible is not merely that a thing is not real, but that it cannot be real in any and all possible circumstances. Thus it is not sufficient to prove something is not real to find it as impossible.

Thus for me, the Christian god is both not real and not impossible. Not unlike Santa, or magic.

So you are implying here that Santa is not impossible.
Trouble is that you could mean anything by Santa.
If you insist that there is a being that can follow the night around the planet visiting every single home to give children a gift and manages to come down a chimney pot despite his obvious girth, then you would have to admit that is impossible within the constraints of physics.
So surely a clear definition of that is meant be TGodofA, might be a good place to start?

Well, Santa goes by the moniker of Jolly ol St Nick. Was there a St Nicholas? But wait a minute, doesn't Santa fly around the world and go down chimneys? That's a story ABOUT Santa but ISN'T Santa. Just as Marie Antoinette was a REAL person even though the STORY of her saying "let them eat cake" is not real.

All accounts of Santa are "about" Santa, as all accounts of god are about god. What's your point?
It is by such stories that such entities are defined.

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 9:27 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 4:11 pm

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 2:35 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 8:47 am

Thats a funny place to start.
Surely it would be easier to come down a chimney despite being fat to every child's house, than create the entire universe from nothing?

SO what do you mean by the God of Abraham?
I am pretty sure that einstein specifically and explicitly denies the existence of such a being.

The God of Abraham is the God the Jews worshipped: the single Creator and sustainer of the universe.

Einstein did not believe in that God, but he believed in some kind of God and truly resented being cited by atheists as one of their own as the following quote proves.

"There are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views."

So you only mentioned Einstein to annoy the atheists- funny.

"God is the result of human weakness", Einstein..

So it's this sort of god you want to discuss is it?

SO here is a start to your definition:

"The God of Abraham is the God the Jews worshipped: the single Creator and sustainer of the universe."

Where did the Jews get the idea for this entity?

Divine inspiration, which all the other religions clearly did not get since they were polytheistic.

They would say that, as any one with a mental illness might.
Jews were also polytheistic

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 9:31 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 4:11 pm

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 2:35 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 8:47 am

Thats a funny place to start.
Surely it would be easier to come down a chimney despite being fat to every child's house, than create the entire universe from nothing?

SO what do you mean by the God of Abraham?
I am pretty sure that einstein specifically and explicitly denies the existence of such a being.

The God of Abraham is the God the Jews worshipped: the single Creator and sustainer of the universe.

Einstein did not believe in that God, but he believed in some kind of God and truly resented being cited by atheists as one of their own as the following quote proves.

"There are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views."

So you only mentioned Einstein to annoy the atheists- funny.

"God is the result of human weakness", Einstein..

So it's this sort of god you want to discuss is it?

SO here is a start to your definition:

"The God of Abraham is the God the Jews worshipped: the single Creator and sustainer of the universe."

Where did the Jews get the idea for this entity?

I think it was Einstein who wanted to annoy the atheists because they had abused him.
Are you annoyed by Einstein?

No, but I think you should be because he did not believe in god as you characterise the idea.

Gertie wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2022, 4:48 am

Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 9:22 pm

Gertie wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2022, 3:47 pm

Charlemagne wrote: ↑November 30th, 2022, 7:54 pm This is not the same as another thread here with a similar title

I can see why atheists would regard so many gods as impossible . I also regard them as impossible. What I'd like to know is whether they regard the God of Abraham as equally impossible, since that God has proven to have considerably more historical staying power.

Your thoughts?

What's your criteria for establishing what is or isn't possible, and more or less possible?

Evidence that lends credibility.

OK. Well many ancient cultures came up with creation myths, as best guesses in terms of their different cultures.  Why?  Because it's a mystery beyond contempoary explanations 'of this world'.  The Genesis myth of the Jews is one such 'God of the Gaps' myth, associated with their tribal god Yahweh.  There's no more evidence for that myth than any other imo. 

The Yahweh of that myth  intervened, according to his believers, specifically in relation to his own tribe/chosen people, as did many other competing contemporary gods.  The tribe's fortunes being associated with Yahweh's favour or disfavour.  If there's one underlying theological  theme throughout the OT, as snapshots of a tribal history of sorts, I'd say it's that.  A tribal god which rewards loyalty and obedience to his law with prosperity, territory and victory in battles.  And punishes disobedience with enslavement, occupation and natural disaster.  Again  providing an explanation, now for the vicissitudes of life in a world of competing cultures and gods.  This smacks to me of an invented tribal god, much like many others.

Is there compelling evidence for this all being true?  Well, if I was introduced to Yahweh in the same way I learned about say  Rig Veda, Norse, Greek, Babylonian or Celtic mythology, I don't see why I'd see it as special or having more credible evidence.  What extra credible evidence do you see?

However, I don't think the lack of credible evidence makes any of those myths impossible.  We have no way of establishing the impossibility of something which can't be falsified, that's the point of the Flying Spaghetti Monster waggish/dickish counter example.

I agree )