Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[stevie]

"Existence" is a second thought that may but doesn't necessarily follow an appearance. Thus the outright affirmation of "existence" as such is necessarily a speculation. "absolute" is a second order speculation on top of "existence".

[Dracula]

I relate to everyone when I talk about the existence that we'll have as our souls forever.

Maybe we won't, though? Maybe when you die, you just snuff it, end of story? We have reports from the "border" but not from the other side, so it's an unknown.

Here's my belief on the process of going from human to soul. We have a ghost anatomy that is our existence. When we die we'll still be in the universe but as a ghost. Then the universe will become Origin, like a one inch seed becomes a 100 foot tree.

I dunno, I've always thought not having a soul falls into the category of synonyms of impractical, and having a soul falls into the category of practical.

Think about everything you won't have if you don't have a soul, a soulmate, other souls that you'll be with forever, life, adventure, meaning to existence, and as the soul, everything you could ever dream of and everything existence could ever be about.

[AmericanKestrel]

In what way do numbers offer a gateway to knowing the truth, do you think?

Numbers are abstract concepts. Number 6. When it interacts with other numbers it transforms them - 3 to 18, 4 to 24 and so on. We know very well HOW it does that, the mathematics of it, we see it. But WHY? What is it about 6 which is an abstract concept? I think mathematics leads us to recognizing eternal Truth.

What is it about 6 which is an abstract concept? That it is a number, I think.

I think numbers may be combined, not that they interact. The rules that govern these combinations are the rules of arithmetic. These follow directly — deductively — from the axioms of set and number theory. And there we reach the end of the trail.

Axioms are guesses, things that we think should be true, but we have no way to show that it is so. As to why? I don't think there is an answer to that. We can explain why 3 times 6 = 18, because of the chain of reasoning I just described. But any more general "Why?" questions evade an answer, I think.

Numbers are mystical that way. We know the effect and power of zero, shunya, emptiness. It is not material yet we experience it. Divinity, Brhman, Consciousness, Existence, we have no words to explain it or even understand it, only experience it.

[AmericanKestrel]

"Existence" is a second thought that may but doesn't necessarily follow an appearance. Thus the outright affirmation of "existence" as such is necessarily a speculation. "absolute" is a second order speculation on top of "existence".

Numbers exist in some realm apart from us, and we become conscious of numbers only through mathematics. Mathematics is a function that is dependent on numbers, and numbers have an absolute existence, independent and unconditional.

[stevie]

"Existence" is a second thought that may but doesn't necessarily follow an appearance. Thus the outright affirmation of "existence" as such is necessarily a speculation. "absolute" is a second order speculation on top of "existence".

Numbers exist in some realm apart from us, ...

This is speculation.

and we become conscious of numbers only through mathematics. Mathematics is a function that is dependent on numbers, ...

This is appearance.

and numbers have an absolute existence, independent and unconditional.

This is speculation.

[Belindi]

I believe the first step in knowing existence is to know it's absolute. With that knowledge comes all knowledge. Thus when we become our souls everything will be absolute (all the souls and the realm). Also, if one believes in Heaven you can say Heaven is absolute. By absolute I'm implying infinite or beyond. I know existence is absolute and when I came to that awakening I learned a lot about existence. Yes... absolute bliss etc for all eternity.

I'd not call existence itself 'absolute'. I'd call existence self-caused, like God is supposed to be self -caused.

Souls are not separate substances from bodies and so cannot survive death. However experiences never die as souls (or minds)and bodies are experiences. Experiences are undeniable although one cannot presume there is something called a person that 'has' the said experiences. So experience is that which is both absolute and particular.

[Sy Borg]

I relate to everyone when I talk about the existence that we'll have as our souls forever.

Maybe we won't, though? Maybe when you die, you just snuff it, end of story? We have reports from the "border" but not from the other side, so it's an unknown.

Here's my belief on the process of going from human to soul. We have a ghost anatomy that is our existence. When we die we'll still be in the universe but as a ghost. Then the universe will become Origin, like a one inch seed becomes a 100 foot tree.

I dunno, I've always thought not having a soul falls into the category of synonyms of impractical, and having a soul falls into the category of practical.

Think about everything you won't have if you don't have a soul, a soulmate, other souls that you'll be with forever, life, adventure, meaning to existence, and as the soul, everything you could ever dream of and everything existence could ever be about.

I think the dualist conception of souls is a misinterpretation. If you examine all that makes you you, the mast majority of it stems from your culture rather than within. If you were raised by wolves as a baby, you would still have the same purported soul, but you would be an entirely different person to anyone who met you.

One's "soul" is ultimately a collection of their intrinsic qualities. When we die, I doubt that the ghost version of us goes on to lead a continuing existence (after walking into the light or whatever). Rather, others will express those qualities in our stead - some of the qualities will be in in person A, others in person B - and so on. Or there may be some people born who are remarkably like you - with eight billion people alive, and another 90-100 million being added each year - the probabilities are that some people will have personal qualities that are uncannily like yours.

So, when I die, the only major losses will be in the personal realm. I am pretty sure the world can easily do without me because almost all of my thoughts are likely to be very similar to those of others who based their ideas on similar information to that which I've accessed. Everything I do can be done better by others. Our small degree of individuality is like a tip of our personal iceberg, with culture being a bulk.

[Consul]

Speaking of ghosts, I recommend this wonderful movie:

"With A GHOST STORY, acclaimed director David Lowery (AIN'T THEM BODIES SAINTS, PETE'S DRAGON) returns with a singular exploration of legacy, loss, and the essential human longing for meaning and connection. Recently deceased, a white-sheeted ghost (Academy Award-winner Casey Affleck) returns to his suburban home to console his bereft wife (Academy Award-nominee Rooney Mara), only to find that in his spectral state he has become unstuck in time, forced to watch passively as the life he knew and the woman he loves slowly slip away. Increasingly unmoored, the ghost embarks on a cosmic journey through memory and history, confronting life's ineffable questions and the enormity of existence. An unforgettable meditation on love and grief, A GHOST STORY emerges ecstatic and surreal - a wholly unique experience that lingers long after the credits roll."

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/a_ghost_story

[Sy Borg]

Speaking of ghosts, I recommend this wonderful movie:

"With A GHOST STORY, acclaimed director David Lowery (AIN'T THEM BODIES SAINTS, PETE'S DRAGON) returns with a singular exploration of legacy, loss, and the essential human longing for meaning and connection. Recently deceased, a white-sheeted ghost (Academy Award-winner Casey Affleck) returns to his suburban home to console his bereft wife (Academy Award-nominee Rooney Mara), only to find that in his spectral state he has become unstuck in time, forced to watch passively as the life he knew and the woman he loves slowly slip away. Increasingly unmoored, the ghost embarks on a cosmic journey through memory and history, confronting life's ineffable questions and the enormity of existence. An unforgettable meditation on love and grief, A GHOST STORY emerges ecstatic and surreal - a wholly unique experience that lingers long after the credits roll."

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/a_ghost_story

The ghost lost its place in Minkowski space. The ghosts must be subject to gravity because, if it travelled back in time for one year, then the Earth will have travelled almost a billion kilometres from where the events occurred. Then we have to consider that the Milky Way, travelling 2.1 million kph would have moved 18,396,000,000 kilometres in that time (give or take a few million).

So a time-travelling ghost must either be subject to gravity or it will keep manifesting in in deep space and presumably become rather bored. If a ghost that is unmoored in time is subject to gravity, but it also undetectable, then it would seemingly be made from dark matter :)

[Belindi]

Speaking of ghosts, I recommend this wonderful movie:

"With A GHOST STORY, acclaimed director David Lowery (AIN'T THEM BODIES SAINTS, PETE'S DRAGON) returns with a singular exploration of legacy, loss, and the essential human longing for meaning and connection. Recently deceased, a white-sheeted ghost (Academy Award-winner Casey Affleck) returns to his suburban home to console his bereft wife (Academy Award-nominee Rooney Mara), only to find that in his spectral state he has become unstuck in time, forced to watch passively as the life he knew and the woman he loves slowly slip away. Increasingly unmoored, the ghost embarks on a cosmic journey through memory and history, confronting life's ineffable questions and the enormity of existence. An unforgettable meditation on love and grief, A GHOST STORY emerges ecstatic and surreal - a wholly unique experience that lingers long after the credits roll."

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/a_ghost_story

"unmoored" says it all.

Experience, in order to exist, depends on (is moored to) the context of experience. If ,as described by the blurb on Ghost Story, the ghost is unmoored by death from others then the ghost cannot exist.

By "others" I mean not only other people but also the entire mesh of causes and effects that is the environment of an experience.

[Consul]

The ghost lost its place in Minkowski space. The ghosts must be subject to gravity because, if it travelled back in time for one year, then the Earth will have travelled almost a billion kilometres from where the events occurred. Then we have to consider that the Milky Way, travelling 2.1 million kph would have moved 18,396,000,000 kilometres in that time (give or take a few million).

So a time-travelling ghost must either be subject to gravity or it will keep manifesting in in deep space and presumably become rather bored. If a ghost that is unmoored in time is subject to gravity, but it also undetectable, then it would seemingly be made from dark matter

The idea of a ghostly afterlife is pure fiction, but that moving movie is a very good work of fiction!

[Pattern-chaser]

Numbers exist in some realm apart from us, and we become conscious of numbers only through mathematics.

I think numbers 'exist' only in realms that we (humans) have created. I think this because numbers are not measurably or observably present in the scientifically-physical universe.

[Pattern-chaser]

I'd not call existence itself 'absolute'.

Agreed. We throw adjectives around like confetti sometimes, and not always with good reason, or to good effect. The adjectives we seem to employ the most are the ones that appear to carry deep and substantial meaning, but when we look really closely, that meaning is vague, and actually lacking in meaning. I'm thinking of "absolute", as here; and of "truly", as in the "truly random" of another extant topic; and so on. Even "objective" is often used in this way.

This practice of using adjectives to claim authority that our ideas do not justify or deserve annoys the Hell out of me. In philosophy, but also in life in general, honesty* delivers greater rewards than any sort of posturing, such as we are discussing here (briefly, one hopes!).



* — Not "Honesty", with a capital letter, and much associated posturing, but just honesty. Similar to a law-court situation, honesty, to me, simply requires the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. In less formal terms, I mean that we say — as clearly and simply as we can — what we believe, missing out nothing significant, and don't say anything we don't believe.

[AmericanKestrel]

Numbers exist in some realm apart from us, and we become conscious of numbers only through mathematics.

I think numbers 'exist' only in realms that we (humans) have created. I think this because numbers are not measurably or observably present in the scientifically-physical universe.

Yes. The essence of numbers, unlike the figure 6, say, are independent of our mind, unlike other products of our mind such as thoughts,emotions, and experiences. Figure 6 can be represented in several ways, in several scripts, called different names, but the concept remains, and its essence, the power to effect other numbers which exist as entities in the same realm, remains the same. It never changes, is eternal.

[Pattern-chaser]

The essence of numbers, unlike the figure 6, say, are independent of our mind, unlike other products of our mind such as thoughts,emotions, and experiences. Figure 6 can be represented in several ways, in several scripts, called different names, but the concept remains, and its essence, the power to effect other numbers which exist as entities in the same realm, remains the same. It never changes, is eternal.

Yes, I'm aware that "6" is just a symbol, and may be represented in other ways. I agree that we are not at all concerned with this, but with the underlying concept. This underlying concept is the mathematical concept of number, and it is dependent on set and number theory, and the axioms that found them.

On the one hand, we might say that "6" is "independent of our mind", in the sense that an alien race could come up with the idea themselves; it would be the same idea, the same concept, and it would (presumably) have the same use.

On the other hand, in a philosophy forum, 'mind-independent' is usually employed to describe something that is actual, regardless of our thoughts, beliefs or opinions. The concept of number does not seem to meet this standard. It is a human creation, and it does not exist in the scientifically-described physical universe. Or if it does somehow exist, there is no measurable or observable evidence that this is so.

If there is a 'realm of number', that too is created by, and dependent upon, human mathematicians. It's neither mind-independent nor eternal, as far as I can see.