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[Vita]

2nd comment:

Can you see the inherent contradiction? On the one hand you speak of "terrible life" in the context of 'vegetables' and on the other hand you speak of life as "tragedy" and "struggle" and seem to desire death as "peaceful state". But the life of a 'vegetables' isn't "tragedy" and "struggle" and doesn't make death appear as emergency exit, so why should it be "terrible"?

I see no inherent contradiction. I believe Sushan is presenting two extremes here, those who live in fear of death but do not live at all, and those who accept and almost encourage death. The former is sad because they could not love for fear of losing and the latter is tragic because they lost hope.

[Sushan]

This topic is about the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White

The tragedy of life is not death; rather, it is what we let die inside of us while we live

-Norman Cousins-


Everyone is afraid of death. Dying is a terrifying thought to the individual, and it brings sadness to that individual's close ones. And there are many that become like 'vegetables' (technically speaking 'vegetative state') and live a terrible life before dying. Latter is more tragic than the former, and it is quite relatable to the quote.


But I always felt like life is the real tragedy. We always struggle to keep our lives, maintain our bodies, keep our relationships, to be happy, etc. And we have to put a great effort to fulfill all these, yet at the end if we do not achieve what we expected we feel sad. However, death is not like that. It is a peaceful state in which you can stop all the running and struggling, and be calm and quite. So I feel like life as a tragedy and death as a gift. What about you?

I totally agree. You right that we fear death, but generally when we aren't that close to death. By the time we're actually infirm enough to actually die, we're usually pretty accepting of it.

As to the quote, the dimming of the light is definitely worse than the moment the dim light snaps out, though to be fair, commonly the decline is slow enough where we can accept it as the "new normal".

Quite true. Usually everyone is afraid of death. But young ones are more afraid compared to the old ones. As you said, because the changes of life that we are taken towards death are slow, we usually get accustomed to death. In some occasions people wish to die when living becomes much harder due to these changes.

[Sushan]

I always felt like life is the real tragedy. We always struggle to keep our lives, maintain our bodies, keep our relationships, to be happy, etc. And we have to put a great effort to fulfill all these, yet at the end if we do not achieve what we expected we feel sad. However, death is not like that. It is a peaceful state in which you can stop all the running and struggling, and be calm and quite. So I feel like life as a tragedy and death as a gift. What about you?

Maybe it's our expectations that are at fault? Maybe we expect too much, and are disappointed when we don't achieve it?

We need goals and expectations to live. Otherwise there will be no purpose in living. But it is upto us to make our goals realistic as possible. Some say to set goals at much higher levels. But we should always keep in mind to control our emotions if we fail. Does this mean we should set goals at very low level? I don't think so. We have to find the balance.

[Sushan]

I agree too. I think we view life and death differently because we (for the most part) know what life is like, but death we do not understand, therefore sometimes we view it as a better option than life.

I agree. Death can be far worse than life. No one living can ever know about death. There are people who have gone to the other side and come back (like in comas), yet, no one can say clearly about death. But I am certain that it will end all the troubles of our current life since it ends the most basic existence that causes all our troubles; the life.

[Sushan]

This topic is about the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White

The tragedy of life is not death; rather, it is what we let die inside of us while we live

-Norman Cousins-

That quote seems to be based on the belief there is already something "inside" when being born and that this is worth being safeguarded. I don't think that this applies which is why I'd say that the topic isn't "what we let die" but "what we acquire" and whether "what we acquire" is a "tragedy" or not depends on the 'what' and the individual experiences in the context of this 'what'.

But I always felt like life is the real tragedy.

If there is a "tragedy" then it isn't necessarily real and it can't be death.

... death is not like that. It is a peaceful state in which you can stop all the running and struggling, and be calm and quite. So I feel like life as a tragedy and death as a gift. What about you?

I don't know death and I will never know death. I am inclined to go along with Epicurus:

Death is nothing to us. When we exist, death is not; and when death exists, we are not

Epicurus has told about the unknown with quite a way of use of words, and I think that is how many popular quotes are made. Yes, for living beings death is nothing.

I am sorry, but I did not fully understand what you tried to say. What is it with acquiring and being it a tragedy? What are we born with (having something inside)?

[Sushan]

I do not have much to contribute to this subject but one thing I can say is that, at least once we die, we won't be able to "feel" its tragedy anyway.

Apparently it is true. Death people seems to feel nothing. The priest in The Count of Monte Cristo did not feel anything when his body was burned by prison guards to confirm whether he was dead or trying to fool them. Yet, what if we retain a certain type of feelings that are unique to the death? What if it is more painful than feelings that we get while living? Even thinking about it is frightening.

[Sushan]

Everyone is afraid of death.

I would say that most people reasonably avoid death.

However, lots of people cannot really afford to be afraid of death. Soldiers, for example, become rather ineffective if they are afraid of death, especially, if the other side is not.

In fact, if you are afraid of death, you will find yourself dominated and bossed around by people who are not. Therefore, you cannot live life to its fullest extent, if you are afraid of death.

People who are afraid of death will end up being afraid of people who are not afraid of death. It effectively creates a hierarchy with superiors and inferiors. Therefore, learning to overcome your fear of death is probably a necessity. Otherwise, you may look forward to a life of getting bullied.

However, death is not like that. It is a peaceful state in which you can stop all the running and struggling, and be calm and quite. So I feel like life as a tragedy and death as a gift. What about you?

I actually enjoy much of the running and struggling. It is like going to the gym. It requires struggling, but afterwards, you actually feel better.

Fear is a mechanism that protects us. Day by day we learn the things that can harm us, and we tend to avoid them because of fear of being hurt. Fear to death protects us. People who are less afraid try to do hard and risky things. When they succeed they become popular. But when they fail they die. By being afraid and doing nothing one can be unpopular and delay death (avoid unnecessarily dying).

[Sushan]

[...] So I feel like life as a tragedy and death as a gift. What about you?

I understand this quote as lament for growing up and gaining knowledge of our own mortality.
What dies inside of us is the ignorance, the naivety, the happy child in our mind that discovers that life is limited.

That is the tragedy!

Our imagination, our capacity to reflect and project ourselves in the future, our capacity to predict what will happen to us given what we observe on others. When we mature and gain these capacities, we loose a part of us. We loose our immortality while gaining consciousness.

I think the way to deal with fear has nothing to do with the quote and I myself have no solution for that. Although I appreciate that Epicure quote, which helped me when I was 16 to avoid anxiety due to fear of death, I think it is now too simple of an explanation to really deal with other feelings, thoughts and needs that came with time and maturity.

For some people, consciousness of death leads necessarily to Nihilism. For others is Religion the way to give an easy answer to a rather complex process atheists have to go through.

I observe though, that consciousness of death can be used in our favor too.
"Momento Mori! Remember you are gonna die one day or another." That can be an invitation to develop awareness. That awareness can be used a booster to focus on what really matters to you. That can lead to a fulfilling life worth living.
Failing in this endeavor can make your life also very miserable and lead automatically to Nihilism.


Do you think purpose and fulfilment in your life (from an atheist/agnostic point of view) is an idea exclusive for millennial generations? I think millennials are (more) obsessed with purpose than let's say one or two previous generations.

Is the historical moment influencing our way to deal with fear of death?

Religions have used death in various ways. Mainly to encourage the followers to gain spiritual superiority prior to death and gain a better afterlife. People who believe in afterlife do many good deeds to make it better, which is actually good socially. But it is only a belief but not a guarantee. There is a high chance to be heart-broken after dying if you give yourself too much to the thoughts regarding afterlife.

Yes, people have been afraid of death throughout the history. From the era that humans had to fight wild animals to survive, people sought ways to defy death. Many solutions were made, including religions. If we are not concerned about death, there will not be a concept called life expectancy, and it will never be a social measure.

[Sushan]

Everyone is afraid of death.

I would say that most people reasonably avoid death.

However, lots of people cannot really afford to be afraid of death. Soldiers, for example, become rather ineffective if they are afraid of death, especially, if the other side is not.

In fact, if you are afraid of death, you will find yourself dominated and bossed around by people who are not. Therefore, you cannot live life to its fullest extent, if you are afraid of death.

People who are afraid of death will end up being afraid of people who are not afraid of death. It effectively creates a hierarchy with superiors and inferiors. Therefore, learning to overcome your fear of death is probably a necessity. Otherwise, you may look forward to a life of getting bullied.

However, death is not like that. It is a peaceful state in which you can stop all the running and struggling, and be calm and quite. So I feel like life as a tragedy and death as a gift. What about you?

I actually enjoy much of the running and struggling. It is like going to the gym. It requires struggling, but afterwards, you actually feel better.

Well if you have played your cards right, you aren't in life and death situations in your day to day life, therefore your fear or non fear of death is immaterial.

Or put it a different way, if your fear of death is coming up routinely in your life, you've got bigger problems than your fear of death.

Quite true. We fear a lot more things like financial security, relationship issues, issues regarding moral values, etc. Death does not come even to our minds unless we get into a life or death situation, which many of us usually do not. If one is constantly reminded of death or lives with fear towards death, some psychological support can be very much useful.

[Sushan]

In fact, if you are afraid of death, you will find yourself dominated and bossed around by people who are not. Therefore, you cannot live life to its fullest extent, if you are afraid of death.

But if you are dead, you cannot live life itself. This would be less preferable than not being able to live life to its fullest extent, which is still living.

And I believe that we don't live life solely in order to live it fully anyway, since living life to its fullest extent is just an option and a secondary consequence of life, not its purpose. The purpose of life is to simply live.

To not have fear of death is an admirable sign of courage, yes. However, no amount of courage or strength from our mental self, will amount to that of our biological self who separates the self from the non-self out of sole defiance. The biological self who defines itself into existence. Nothing within ourselves is more powerful than what makes us live, what makes us ourselves. To be afraid of death is to not let go of the strength of this biological self.

Therefore, in order to defeat the ones who dominate and boss us around, we must fight against them as much as we can, just not to the point where one has to abandon their greatest strength against reality that is life. To have them take that away from us is to me, the ultimate sign of being dominated.

However, the beauty of life is that one gets to carry out whatever they want, including risking one's death in order to not be dominated or bossed around. Paradoxically this can still count as another way to embrace life, since in this case one utilizes the abilities and potentials of life.

Living life to the fullest is a subjective thought. We look at billionaires who have everything and think "ahhh....what a life!". Yet, they may be feeling lacking in their lives. So the total experience is subjective. One that has almost nothing too can be content of life, and that will be a life lived to its fullest to that one.

Actually courage is not being not afraid of death. Every situation that we face does not end in death. There are more things that anyone can be courageous about like going against a socially accepted wrong practice, taking the risk of being humiliated while doing something correct, etc. So there are many ways to be courageous, and the people who boss around and bully others are not really courageous ones, but ones that try to compensate their inferiority complex by suppressing others.

[Sushan]

Well if you have played your cards right, you aren't in life and death situations in your day to day life, therefore your fear or non fear of death is immaterial.

If you outsource your protection to others, you have effectively created a hierarchy of superiors and inferiors, with yourself in the inferior role.

Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus.

If you want peace, prepare for war.

If you are difficult to attack, you will almost surely not get attacked. If you are a weak target, you are effectively encouraging attacks.

If you are yourself not prepared to do what it takes to defend yourself, then you count on others to do it for you. That kind of "protection" will increasingly turn on you, if you do that.

Furthermore, with inflation going through the roof, and social chaos around the corner, this problem will soon become much more acute. The army in Sri Lanka has been instructed to shoot on looters. Shoot first, ask questions later. In the meanwhile, defending from looters, is still your own problem.

Historically, long bouts of chaos are the norm and not the exception. How were people in Sri Lanka supposed to have played their cards to avoid life and death situations in their day to day lives?

By the way, Tunesia is also about to implode. Half the southern Mediterranean is in the grip of upheaval now. The northern part will soon follow. In my opinion, it will go pretty much global.

Firing orders may have been given, but I do not think any soldier who has even a bit of moral values could be able to aim his gun towards a fellow citizen. And no soldier will be held wrong for not opening fire towards a civilian.

Situations in Sri Lanka, Lebanon, Tunesia are extreme ones. This is not the first time that the world economy hit a major break down, and the global ininflation rose. Yet, the people survived; the world survived.

You can gain peace by being peaceful. Attacking first or being ready to attack is, IMO, the way of cowards, bullies, or criminals, who have a reason to think that they can be attacked at any moment by anyone. Maintaining a strong personality is one thing. Being protective is not so bad. But being over protective can be distressing, and that is quite bad.

[Sushan]

Well if you have played your cards right, you aren't in life and death situations in your day to day life, therefore your fear or non fear of death is immaterial.

If you outsource your protection to others, you have effectively created a hierarchy of superiors and inferiors, with yourself in the inferior role.

Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus.

If you want peace, prepare for war.

If you are difficult to attack, you will almost surely not get attacked. If you are a weak target, you are effectively encouraging attacks.

If you are yourself not prepared to do what it takes to defend yourself, then you count on others to do it for you. That kind of "protection" will increasingly turn on you, if you do that.

Furthermore, with inflation going through the roof, and social chaos around the corner, this problem will soon become much more acute. The army in Sri Lanka has been instructed to shoot on looters. Shoot first, ask questions later. In the meanwhile, defending from looters, is still your own problem.

Historically, long bouts of chaos are the norm and not the exception. How were people in Sri Lanka supposed to have played their cards to avoid life and death situations in their day to day lives?

By the way, Tunesia is also about to implode. Half the southern Mediterranean is in the grip of upheaval now. The northern part will soon follow. In my opinion, it will go pretty much global.

Sounds good on paper, but doesn't reflect the reality of most of the posters on this Forum. You are essentially trying to create a false dichotomy (have a robust defense or get attacked). Perfect for those in war zones. Luckily the option of not living in a war zone is a better option than either of those you offered. Again, I am not saying you're wrong, just very incomplete.

It is a mindset of a soldier. Either you should attack or the enemy will attack and kill you. Even for a soldier in a war zone there is a third option. If he is fighting in a legitimate war with a legitimate army according to international laws, then he can drop his weapon and surrender. Yes, it can be humiliating, but it can save atleast one soldier. But if you are fighting to protect your country, like Ukrainians doing these days, then that third option cannot be utilized without risking loosing your country forever.

[Sushan]

2nd comment:

Everyone is afraid of death.

That doesn't appear to apply. There are many who don't fear death out of different reasons.

Dying is a terrifying thought to the individual, and it brings sadness to that individual's close ones.

There might be some that don't fear death but are afraid of dying. See? The process of passing away isn't the end point.

And there are many that become like 'vegetables' (technically speaking 'vegetative state') and live a terrible life before dying. Latter is more tragic than the former, and it is quite relatable to the quote.


But I always felt like life is the real tragedy. We always struggle ... However, death is not like that. It is a peaceful state ...

Can you see the inherent contradiction? On the one hand you speak of "terrible life" in the context of 'vegetables' and on the other hand you speak of life as "tragedy" and "struggle" and seem to desire death as "peaceful state". But the life of a 'vegetables' isn't "tragedy" and "struggle" and doesn't make death appear as emergency exit, so why should it be "terrible"?

Saying that someone is not afraid of death and being actually not afraid of death are two different things, and I believe that the latter group is far less than the former. If you want to check this abduct some of these brave fellows, take them to a cliff-end, and threaten to push them. Then you will see how many are actually brave enough to face death.

What I said was even being like a 'vegetable' is tragedy, which is included in the 'life' part. For such people death can be a sweet exit.

[Sushan]

Everyone is afraid of death.

I would say that most people reasonably avoid death.

However, lots of people cannot really afford to be afraid of death. Soldiers, for example, become rather ineffective if they are afraid of death, especially, if the other side is not.

In fact, if you are afraid of death, you will find yourself dominated and bossed around by people who are not. Therefore, you cannot live life to its fullest extent, if you are afraid of death.

People who are afraid of death will end up being afraid of people who are not afraid of death. It effectively creates a hierarchy with superiors and inferiors. Therefore, learning to overcome your fear of death is probably a necessity. Otherwise, you may look forward to a life of getting bullied.

I think that, to function as best we may, we should be aware of death, and accepting of death, but not afraid of death. Why be afraid of something that is inescapable? Such fear is pointless and unproductive. But if we forget death, we err, I think.

That is true, and I think many people do so. People try to live their lives fully, but have pension plans and last wills. All the latter are done because they know that they have to leave this world one day and then the dependants should have an income to live. So people consider death as well when planning future, which is actually a good thing. Those who think too much about death either go insane, or leave the mundane world and seek spiritual development.

[Pattern-chaser]

...if we do not achieve what we expected we feel sad.

Maybe it's our expectations that are at fault? Maybe we expect too much, and are disappointed when we don't achieve it?

We need goals and expectations to live. Otherwise there will be no purpose in living. But it is upto us to make our goals realistic as possible. Some say to set goals at much higher levels. But we should always keep in mind to control our emotions if we fail. Does this mean we should set goals at very low level? I don't think so. We have to find the balance.

Balance, yes, but if we set unreasonable, unreachable, goals, we will fail to reach them, and thus be disappointed. To set such unattainable targets is not the way to find balance, IMO.