Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Charlemagne]

So, I am asking you about the way in which you are influenced by the arts, including visual art, music and literature. You may also wish to include films. How have these influenced or even changed your life?

Literature has really changed my life, along with music. During the middle years of my life I fell away from reading very much. I also lost interest in music generally.

Then someone urged me to read G.K. Chesterton's The Man Who Was Thursday. I was dazzled! From there I went on to read more Chesterton, especially The Everlasting Man, which really bowled me over, though I hear most people cannot get past the first chapter or two.

Coincidentally, I happened upon Mozart's Ave verum Corpus, the most beautiful piece of music I had ever heard, especially the version conducted by Leonard Bernstein and viewable on YOUTUBE.

Since then, in my last years I have dabbled in writing short stories on religious themes (including one on Sherlock Holmes) and have composed three sacred hymns that are currently being recorded by a university professor who teaches voice.

[JackDaydream]

So, I am asking you about the way in which you are influenced by the arts, including visual art, music and literature. You may also wish to include films. How have these influenced or even changed your life?

Literature has really changed my life, along with music. During the middle years of my life I fell away from reading very much. I also lost interest in music generally.

Then someone urged me to read G.K. Chesterton's The Man Who Was Thursday. I was dazzled! From there I went on to read more Chesterton, especially The Everlasting Man, which really bowled me over, though I hear most people cannot get past the first chapter or two.

Coincidentally, I happened upon Mozart's Ave verum Corpus, the most beautiful piece of music I had ever heard, especially the version conducted by Leonard Bernstein and viewable on YOUTUBE.

Since then, in my last years I have dabbled in writing short stories on religious themes (including one on Sherlock Holmes) and have composed three sacred hymns that are currently being recorded by a university professor who teaches voice.

I am glad that literature has had a big influence in your life. I haven't read any Chesterton but I have heard that he is very good. I do read a lot of fiction from many genres and I do enjoy writing, including short stories.

Music is my other love but I come from a far more alternative angle. I did really badly at school in music because the focus was on classical and my parents used to listen to rock and pop.

I think that you are new to the forum, so I am pleased to interact with you and I am sure that I will meet you again on some thread because I do write in the various sections of the forum.

Best wishes,
Jack

[whateverist]

The reason why I ask this question is related to the way in which the arts can be complementary to philosophy. When I am feeling low or having difficult life experiences it is not simply reading philosophy which helps but arts as well. For example, I often start looking for new music for the healing level of music. This is because music and the arts can touch the emotions profoundly. This is about mythos as well as logos, as two aspects of seeking truth.

Interesting question. I think it pays to keep back doors open whereby inspiration and insight can find me. Listening to music, looking at visual arts and most especially reading good novels can all move me emotionally and sometimes lead to greater understanding when questions have been on my mind. Funny you should mention cyber punk novels. I recently read Greg Bear's Blood Music and found it interesting but I hated it for the arbitrariness of the characters. Lots of plot but if I don't care about the characters, why should I care what happens next? Still I have to concede it was damned clever.

So, this question may be about asking about your desert island discs. I find it so hard to narrow it down. Some of my favourite albums include some by U2, especially 'Achtung Baby'. I bought it when I was feeling low in mood and spent an evening lying in bed playing it over and over again. I love Bob Dylan for his lyrics and my favourites include ' Blood on the Tracks', 'Shot of Love' and 'Oh Mercy'. Psychedelic music is probably my favourite genre, including Hawkwind, The Doors, The Psychedelic Furs, The Flaming Lips, Mercury Rev and many more, as part of my inner searching.

I listen to a lot of musical genres and have had lots of favorites. But I find while sometimes the most impactful, a piece of music can quickly become familiar and then loses that impact.

The art and writing of William Blake was so inspiring when I discovered him during adolescence. I count 'Thus Spake Zarathustra' by Nietzsche as a classic piece of literature, not simply as philosophy but as a work of art. Cult fiction also inspired me greatly. Having studied English literature in sixth form, I didn't read any fiction for a long time because I had to read authors who were not the ones for me at that time. Cult fiction brought me back to reading fiction again, including the writing of Irvine Welsh, Jack Keroac, Tom Wolfe and some cyberpunk authors, including William Gibson.

I'd always preferred to read nonfiction for most of my life but when I retired I started reading good novels and I much prefer the implicit knowledge they often provide to collecting yet more explicit knowledge whether from the sciences, psychology, philosophy and so on. Blake is a big favorite of mine as is ee cummings and I've found some poems quite inspiring. But for their power to show me the world as lived through other eyes, give me a good novel. Not too long ago I read Wendell Berry's Jaber Crow and found it enlightening in my attempts to appreciate the Christian mindset without actually going native. One of my favorite passages in any book is this one from Jaber Crow.

There was at first the age when no people were here, and I have sometimes felt at night that absence grow present in my mind, that long silence in which no human name was spoken or given, and the nameless river made no sound of any human tongue. And then there was the Indian age when names were called that have never been spoken in the present language of Port William. Then came the short ages of us white people, the ages of the dugout, the flatboat, the keelboat, the log raft, the steamboat. And I have lived on now into the age of the diesel towboat and recreational boating and water skiing. And yet it is hard to look at the river in its calm, just after daylight or just before dark, and believe that history has happened to it. The river, the river itself, leaves marks but bears none. It is only the water flowing in the path that other water has worn.

Or is that other water really “other”, or is it the same water always running, flowing always toward the gathering of all waters, and always rising and returning again, and again flowing? I knew this river first when I was a little boy, and I know it now when I am an old man once again living beside it … and almost seventy years! … and always when i have watched it I have been entranced and mystified. What is it? Is it the worn trough of itself that is a feature of the land and is marked on maps, or is it the water flowing? Or is it the land itself that over time is shaped by the flowing water, and it caught by no map?

The surface of the quieted river as I thought in those old days at Squire’s Landing, as I think now, is like a window looking into another world that is like this one except that it is quiet. Its quietness makes it seem perfect. The ripples are like the slats of a blind or a shutter through which we we see imperfectly what is perfect. Though that other world can be seen only momentarily, it looks everlasting. As the ripples become more agitated, the window darkens and the other world is hidden. As I did not know then but know now, the surface of the water is like a living soul, which is easy to disturb, is often disturbed, but, growing calm, shows what it was, is, and will be.

So, I am asking you about the way in which you are influenced by the arts, including visual art, music and literature. You may also wish to include films. How have these influenced or even changed your life?

I find I think better when I am in more of a receptive frame of mind than in an investigative frame. So in addition to the arts I have found great inspiration in nature and it the collaboration with nature I find in making a garden which now absorbs my creative efforts. Drawing was an early outlet but now I find making a garden with its many physical tasks to do in solitude wonderful opportunities to reflect. I've only ever made this one garden and it is now 30 years old and quite mature. It has been a long lasting opportunity to approach something with beginner's mind. At seventy that can be hard to come by. Life can be repetitive and becoming world weary is a hazard to avoid. But so long as you can still be a rank beginner at something, you've got a chance.

[JackDaydream]

The reason why I ask this question is related to the way in which the arts can be complementary to philosophy. When I am feeling low or having difficult life experiences it is not simply reading philosophy which helps but arts as well. For example, I often start looking for new music for the healing level of music. This is because music and the arts can touch the emotions profoundly. This is about mythos as well as logos, as two aspects of seeking truth.

Interesting question. I think it pays to keep back doors open whereby inspiration and insight can find me. Listening to music, looking at visual arts and most especially reading good novels can all move me emotionally and sometimes lead to greater understanding when questions have been on my mind. Funny you should mention cyber punk novels. I recently read Greg Bear's Blood Music and found it interesting but I hated it for the arbitrariness of the characters. Lots of plot but if I don't care about the characters, why should I care what happens next? Still I have to concede it was damned clever.

So, this question may be about asking about your desert island discs. I find it so hard to narrow it down. Some of my favourite albums include some by U2, especially 'Achtung Baby'. I bought it when I was feeling low in mood and spent an evening lying in bed playing it over and over again. I love Bob Dylan for his lyrics and my favourites include ' Blood on the Tracks', 'Shot of Love' and 'Oh Mercy'. Psychedelic music is probably my favourite genre, including Hawkwind, The Doors, The Psychedelic Furs, The Flaming Lips, Mercury Rev and many more, as part of my inner searching.

I listen to a lot of musical genres and have had lots of favorites. But I find while sometimes the most impactful, a piece of music can quickly become familiar and then loses that impact.

The art and writing of William Blake was so inspiring when I discovered him during adolescence. I count 'Thus Spake Zarathustra' by Nietzsche as a classic piece of literature, not simply as philosophy but as a work of art. Cult fiction also inspired me greatly. Having studied English literature in sixth form, I didn't read any fiction for a long time because I had to read authors who were not the ones for me at that time. Cult fiction brought me back to reading fiction again, including the writing of Irvine Welsh, Jack Keroac, Tom Wolfe and some cyberpunk authors, including William Gibson.

I'd always preferred to read nonfiction for most of my life but when I retired I started reading good novels and I much prefer the implicit knowledge they often provide to collecting yet more explicit knowledge whether from the sciences, psychology, philosophy and so on. Blake is a big favorite of mine as is ee cummings and I've found some poems quite inspiring. But for their power to show me the world as lived through other eyes, give me a good novel. Not too long ago I read Wendell Berry's Jaber Crow and found it enlightening in my attempts to appreciate the Christian mindset without actually going native. One of my favorite passages in any book is this one from Jaber Crow.

There was at first the age when no people were here, and I have sometimes felt at night that absence grow present in my mind, that long silence in which no human name was spoken or given, and the nameless river made no sound of any human tongue. And then there was the Indian age when names were called that have never been spoken in the present language of Port William. Then came the short ages of us white people, the ages of the dugout, the flatboat, the keelboat, the log raft, the steamboat. And I have lived on now into the age of the diesel towboat and recreational boating and water skiing. And yet it is hard to look at the river in its calm, just after daylight or just before dark, and believe that history has happened to it. The river, the river itself, leaves marks but bears none. It is only the water flowing in the path that other water has worn.

Or is that other water really “other”, or is it the same water always running, flowing always toward the gathering of all waters, and always rising and returning again, and again flowing? I knew this river first when I was a little boy, and I know it now when I am an old man once again living beside it … and almost seventy years! … and always when i have watched it I have been entranced and mystified. What is it? Is it the worn trough of itself that is a feature of the land and is marked on maps, or is it the water flowing? Or is it the land itself that over time is shaped by the flowing water, and it caught by no map?

The surface of the quieted river as I thought in those old days at Squire’s Landing, as I think now, is like a window looking into another world that is like this one except that it is quiet. Its quietness makes it seem perfect. The ripples are like the slats of a blind or a shutter through which we we see imperfectly what is perfect. Though that other world can be seen only momentarily, it looks everlasting. As the ripples become more agitated, the window darkens and the other world is hidden. As I did not know then but know now, the surface of the water is like a living soul, which is easy to disturb, is often disturbed, but, growing calm, shows what it was, is, and will be.

So, I am asking you about the way in which you are influenced by the arts, including visual art, music and literature. You may also wish to include films. How have these influenced or even changed your life?

I find I think better when I am in more of a receptive frame of mind than in an investigative frame. So in addition to the arts I have found great inspiration in nature and it the collaboration with nature I find in making a garden which now absorbs my creative efforts. Drawing was an early outlet but now I find making a garden with its many physical tasks to do in solitude wonderful opportunities to reflect. I've only ever made this one garden and it is now 30 years old and quite mature. It has been a long lasting opportunity to approach something with beginner's mind. At seventy that can be hard to come by. Life can be repetitive and becoming world weary is a hazard to avoid. But so long as you can still be a rank beginner at something, you've got a chance.

I guess that inspiration is so variable, for appreciation and creativity. I like to get the right balance and do wish to create rather than simply appreciate. I am a big fan of William Blake and I like the way he combines poetry and art. I also find trying to get the right balance between reading fiction and non fiction, although I find it easier to concentrate on non fiction, including philosophy. I even find it harder to watch television than read. I am afraid that I am a bit out of touch with nature and wouldn't begin to know how to do gardening. I have found an art group to go to recently which is helpful because I find it hard to do it alone in my room. I think that you are new to the forum, so I hope that you have a creative journey here.

[whateverist]

I guess that inspiration is so variable, for appreciation and creativity. I like to get the right balance and do wish to create rather than simply appreciate. I am a big fan of William Blake and I like the way he combines poetry and art.

Yes and wasn't it one of his aphorisms something like "I must create a system or else be enchained in another man's". I like finding out what creative impulses arise in me more than simply applying principles others recommend. Likewise in philosophy I like discovering what I think in relation to various ideas and schema that others have put forward. But between the two, it is the aesthetic explorations which motivate me more these days.

I also find trying to get the right balance between reading fiction and non fiction, although I find it easier to concentrate on non fiction, including philosophy.

That was always true for me as well. But now I find myself greatly affected by many of the novels I've read. It is like being transported into the perspective and lived experience of someone with a much different starting point and formative experience and encountering the situations which test them. I find it very touching emotionally. When I was in my early twenties I had the naive notion that feelings and emotions were basically a person's choice at some level. Now I laugh at my early self and marvel that I could have become as I have from that. But much of life is assembled and retro-fitted on the fly like the ship of Theseus. Somehow we are the same being as we were in the beginning even if not one plank or fastener remains the same.

I even find it harder to watch television than read. I am afraid that I am a bit out of touch with nature and wouldn't begin to know how to do gardening. I have found an art group to go to recently which is helpful because I find it hard to do it alone in my room. I think that you are new to the forum, so I hope that you have a creative journey here.

I don't think there is anything intrinsically special about gardening so long as it give you a fresh challenge, though it has been a good fit for me. As a navy brat, I changed schools at least twice at each level so making a garden is satisfying in the opportunity it affords to literally put down roots. Also, I always walked in nature everywhere we went, in canyon lands and forests so I have a strong affinity to nature. But I was always critical of fussy man made gardens which seemed to strive to show off the hand of man by the subjugation of nature. Then I visited a garden which felt ostensibly natural but which was infused with exotic and exciting plants and I was inspired to make our yard over in such a way. Thirty years later it is satisfying to see what it has become and to wonder at what it might still become.

I am new here and am enjoying these forums, and your topics especially I find imaginative and interesting. A real opportunity to discover what other thoughts I might still have. So thank you.

[Lagayascienza]

I paint and make a meagre living from it in retirement. It's become the most important thing in my life. it's what gets me up in the morning. I also play classical piano and that is the second most important thing in my life. Art, the creative process, somehow has the ability to make time stand still. Especially when it's going well. While I'm working, a thought from some philosophy I've read might come to mind - Nietzsche's notion of eternal recurrence, his affirmation of life, for example, or Marcus Aurelius: You have power over your mind — not outside events. ...Dwell on the beauty of life. And these serve to elevate me further into that exalted place/state of artistic creation. I also listen to music while I work. Especially classical music. (Pop mostly doesn't do it for me. It's too short for the development of deep and complex musical ideas. But that might just be a problem with me being old and stuck in the past. However, Queen's Bohemian Rapsody comes close.) Bach keyboard concertos and Beethoven's symphonies and his late piano sonatas transport me into a another realm. I'm transported and become lost in the depths and heights of this great art as it swirls around me in the studio. I'm an atheist but music and snippets of philosophy, take me into a "spiritual" state and I think this helps me make better paintings.

If I'm just driving the car or loading the dishwasher, then I quite enjoy a string of three minute of pop songs. They're fun. Oh, and I love all the old Beatles songs from my youth. And I also like modern classical music and soundtracks from movies. The music from The Mission is a favourite.

[Pattern-chaser]

(Pop mostly doesn't do it for me. It's too short for the development of deep and complex musical ideas. But that might just be a problem with me being old and stuck in the past. However, Queen's Bohemian Rapsody comes close.)

Pop is intrinsically ephemeral, I think. That's part of its charm, like the old Beatles hits you remember. But there's a great deal more to contemporary music than pop. Within my own taste, progressive rock — showing my age now! — and jazz often feature extended pieces of greater complexity and length than is appropriate for pop.

I, too, listen to a lot of music, including some classical*, folk, jazz ancient and modern, rock, and the poets of the singer-songwriter genre like Tom Waits, Patti Smith, the late Leonard Cohen, and Bob Dylan. There's much out there to enjoy. It seems a shame to limit yourself to one genre, but it's OK — whatever you enjoy is good.

Being progressively more disabled as time goes on, I spend a lot of time with my digital music collection on shuffle-play, listening to all kinds of music on my headphones. If I was younger, I would probably watch videos and play (computer) games, but they hold no attraction for me. My sons watch loads of videos and stuff, and play games all the time. Each to their own!



* — Chopin, Stravinsky, Debussy, Paganini, some Bach, Beethoven, and a few others I can't call to mind as I write. Oh, and 'early music' too!

[Lagayascienza]

Yes, there's so much great of music out there. I guess it would be impossible to get to know and fully appreciate it all. And some of it is not immediately appealing, not easily accessible - some of it takes time to get to know and appreciate it. I remember first hearing the opening movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony as a young bloke of about 20 and thinking, Crickey, what racket! But the more I listened to it the more I discovered in it and the more I appreciated it. I'm not sure many of the young these days would have the patience to get to know this sort of music. And maybe I'm stuck in the past and don't have the patience to get to know what they like. But that's the great thing about music - there's something for all tastes.

[Pattern-chaser]

I remember first hearing the opening movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony as a young bloke of about 20 and thinking, Crickey, what racket!

I was introduced to the 9th, before I was 20, by Alex, of Clockwork Orange fame. My girlfriend at the time bought me the Klemperer LP for my 18th birthday, and I still love it today. But I love the music of Gentle Giant too, just as much!

[Lagayascienza]

Yes, I saw A Clockwork Orange when I was about 17 years old. I don't remember the music or much about the film at all (perhaps I was too young) but I see that excerpts from the second and fourth movements of the Beethoven's 9th Symphony were indeed used in the film. I suspect the music left me cold because, as a 17yo, I had not yet been exposed to much Beethoven and certainly not to the full majesty, drama, tenderness and joy of the 9th Symphony. Excerpts can be taken from great music and used to good effect in films, but much is missed. For example, there are snippets in the early part of the fourth movement that hark back to the first movement and so the whole thing is tied together into one monumental whole. After these snippets from the first movement, the symphony unfolds into the choral section of the fourth movement. These passages are some of the most accessible and well known of all Beethoven's work. And I'm guessing it was these passages that were used in the film. I must listen to the soundtrack. You've sparked my curiosity.

[Pattern-chaser]

Yes, I saw A Clockwork Orange when I was about 17 years old. I don't remember the music or much about the film at all (perhaps I was too young) but I see that excerpts from the second and fourth movements of the Beethoven's 9th Symphony were indeed used in the film. I suspect the music left me cold because, as a 17yo, I had not yet been exposed to much Beethoven and certainly not to the full majesty, drama, tenderness and joy of the 9th Symphony. Excerpts can be taken from great music and used to good effect in films, but much is missed. For example, there are snippets in the early part of the fourth movement that hark back to the first movement and so the whole thing is tied together into one monumental whole. After these snippets from the first movement, the symphony unfolds into the choral section of the fourth movement. These passages are some of the most accessible and well known of all Beethoven's work. And I'm guessing it was these passages that were used in the film. I must listen to the soundtrack. You've sparked my curiosity.

I also like the way the 2nd movement pre-echoes the 4th. And the Clockwork Orange soundtrack has long been a firm favourite in our house! You may not like Wendy Carlos' renditions of "Ludwig van", but the music shines through as it always does. I confess I am also 'addicted' to the rhythmic gymnastics for which jazz is justly famous. And loads of other stuff too!

[Lagayascienza]

Yes, there are both echoes and pre-echoes in the 9th. This happens in the 5th, too. It's one of the compositional strategies that help bind these works into complex, various and yet cohesive musical wholes.

I, too, like Jazz and wish I had taken the time to listen to and get to know to more of it. Like other complex music, jazz posits and then develops musical ideas to create satisfying musical wholes.

There is so much good music, written and performed by millions of talented composers and musicians but, alas, we only get one listening life.
In terms of the question posed in the OP, it's hard to imagine life without music. It would be a much poorer life for me.

[Pattern-chaser]

The topic asks about art, music and literature, and we've covered music. For myself, there is some art that I appreciate, but visual art is not a major contributor to my life. Literature, on the other hand, has been as influential on me as music has. When I was younger, I read voraciously, fiction and non-fiction. The latter was mostly techie stuff and philosophy-type stuff, and reference works if I was learning about a new (to me) subject.

These days, much non-fiction is too much like hard work. I'm getting old... But I still read a lot, for entertainment, mostly fantasy. Tolkien, Eddings, Donaldson, LeGuin, and many others. But also Hesse, and a few others of his ilk.

[Lagayascienza]

Yes, you are right that music is just one art form that can bring pleasure and depth to our lives. Literature and the visual arts can be just as moving as music. But in different ways. And different people find certain art forms suit their tastes more than other forms. As well as being a painter, I am also a music lover and musician. I can't imagine a fulfilling life without either. And literature, too, is indispensable to me. But I don't read much fiction. I guess I lack patience and find it harder than some to suspend disbelief unless the writing is really excellent. That is why I tend to read masterpieces from the past over again and again. The other reason I don't read much fiction is that I love reading science above all else. I love finding out what is true and reading about cutting edge theories that seem to point to some of the weird things that may be true. And the great thing about science is that it keeps improving and providing us with a more and more accurate picture of reality. I'm currently reading Carlo Rovelli's ideas about white holes. What could be more fascinating!

[Count Lucanor]

Being an architect, I can say that art, including music and literature, has been very important in my life, but I cannot say that it has inspired me in some particular way of approaching life or contributed to my philosophical views. The biggest influences there come from other fields.