Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sculptor1]

... But this acting is usually done by healthy ones to show that they are sick in order to get various benefits, but the other way round is quite rare to occur since there is no gain for them by showing that they are healthy. And also when you are suffering from a psychiatric illness it is hard to pretend like not having such an illness in front of trained eyes of a clinician.

Note the case of psychiatrically ill criminals. There are cases that have been diagnosed severe psychiatric disorders and but are very intelligent excellent actors nevertheless manipulating their interviewers into thinking that an applied therapy has been successful. Thus some have been set free just to take up their criminal behaviour again.

I agree. The infamous serial killer Ted Bundy was a known manipulator. Many of his interviewers believed what he said, though luckily he ended up in death raw. But such skilled people are quite rare. Yes, there are intelligent psychopaths who might pretend as being cured and then continue to carry on with their doings. Best thing is to keep such people detained for a certain time though it will raise human right related issues.

Nothing was gained by killing Bundy. He could have made a great guinea pig for psychological study and help to recognise the signs of emerging psychopaths.
Killing him is just a primitive form of vengeance of no help to the vicitms and their families.

[LuckyR]

... But this acting is usually done by healthy ones to show that they are sick in order to get various benefits, but the other way round is quite rare to occur since there is no gain for them by showing that they are healthy. And also when you are suffering from a psychiatric illness it is hard to pretend like not having such an illness in front of trained eyes of a clinician.

Note the case of psychiatrically ill criminals. There are cases that have been diagnosed severe psychiatric disorders and but are very intelligent excellent actors nevertheless manipulating their interviewers into thinking that an applied therapy has been successful. Thus some have been set free just to take up their criminal behaviour again.

I agree. The infamous serial killer Ted Bundy was a known manipulator. Many of his interviewers believed what he said, though luckily he ended up in death raw. But such skilled people are quite rare. Yes, there are intelligent psychopaths who might pretend as being cured and then continue to carry on with their doings. Best thing is to keep such people detained for a certain time though it will raise human right related issues.

Nothing was gained by killing Bundy. He could have made a great guinea pig for psychological study and help to recognise the signs of emerging psychopaths.
Killing him is just a primitive form of vengeance of no help to the vicitms and their families.

I agree executing Ted Bundy was not a "gain". It probably saved a few dollars in elder care costs but overall was a wash. The very real and important issues of equity and reliability of the justice system did not come into play in his particular case, but are overriding negatives of capital punishment.

[Belindi]

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) says that cognition and behavior are inter-related and have an influence on each other. If we want to modify behavior, we have to change our thoughts in the first place. The tension that we develop is a result of our perception and the thinking based on that perception. So the change of thinking pattern is the only thing necessary for a positive outcome as per CBT.

But I think our behavior is not only directed by cognition. Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?

I imagine that if mood is the cause of bad behaviour, CBT is unlikely to change much behaviour. Bad moods are often caused not by lack of reasoning but by hormonal changes , illness, reasonable fears, or fatigue.

But bad moods create the hormonal changes, so modifying your behaviour changes the production of hormones.
This is a no brainer CBT works .
One method is to acknoweldge subconscious fears, rather than allow them to fester and change your cheminstry. KNowing what bothers and and owning that helps you deal with problems and avoid them.
We all know that avoiding a fight in the street means that your body will not produce the adrenaline that joining the fight would initiate. The same is true of many other situations.
Your mental state is not a cause of chemistry, it is the chemistry. Moods and chemistry go hand in hand.

Bad moods may be caused by some ideas, and there may be evidence that a bad mood causes lasting physical effects. I would not know.

There are a lot of bad moods that originate willy nilly in biological events such as premenstrual tension, lack of sleep, or low blood sugar.

[Belindi]

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) says that cognition and behavior are inter-related and have an influence on each other. If we want to modify behavior, we have to change our thoughts in the first place. The tension that we develop is a result of our perception and the thinking based on that perception. So the change of thinking pattern is the only thing necessary for a positive outcome as per CBT.

But I think our behavior is not only directed by cognition. Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?

I imagine that if mood is the cause of bad behaviour, CBT is unlikely to change much behaviour. Bad moods are often caused not by lack of reasoning but by hormonal changes , illness, reasonable fears, or fatigue.

But bad moods create the hormonal changes, so modifying your behaviour changes the production of hormones.
This is a no brainer CBT works .
One method is to acknoweldge subconscious fears, rather than allow them to fester and change your cheminstry. KNowing what bothers and and owning that helps you deal with problems and avoid them.
We all know that avoiding a fight in the street means that your body will not produce the adrenaline that joining the fight would initiate. The same is true of many other situations.
Your mental state is not a cause of chemistry, it is the chemistry. Moods and chemistry go hand in hand.

Hormonal changes are complex. I read "the pituitary is the conductor of the endocrine orchestra". I agree moods and chemistry "go hand in hand". Environment influences hormonal change as your example of a street fight illustrates. So we have internal environment and external environment and each influences hormonal change.

The internal environment and the external environment are closely connected in experience. As Spinoza said "The mind is the experience of the body".Modern biologists would express that from Spinoza with reference to the organs of special sense by which the mind or central nervous system gets to know the body(internal environment) and also the external environment.

BTW I don't believe in Jungian subconscious.

[Sculptor1]

Note the case of psychiatrically ill criminals. There are cases that have been diagnosed severe psychiatric disorders and but are very intelligent excellent actors nevertheless manipulating their interviewers into thinking that an applied therapy has been successful. Thus some have been set free just to take up their criminal behaviour again.

I agree. The infamous serial killer Ted Bundy was a known manipulator. Many of his interviewers believed what he said, though luckily he ended up in death raw. But such skilled people are quite rare. Yes, there are intelligent psychopaths who might pretend as being cured and then continue to carry on with their doings. Best thing is to keep such people detained for a certain time though it will raise human right related issues.

Nothing was gained by killing Bundy. He could have made a great guinea pig for psychological study and help to recognise the signs of emerging psychopaths.
Killing him is just a primitive form of vengeance of no help to the vicitms and their families.

I agree executing Ted Bundy was not a "gain". It probably saved a few dollars in elder care costs but overall was a wash. The very real and important issues of equity and reliability of the justice system did not come into play in his particular case, but are overriding negatives of capital punishment.

We have a weird situation ATM where putting people in Death Row turns out to be more expensive than life imprisonment.
But I've never thought that saving cash was any kind of reason to kill a person.
I recently watched a Netflix series from the POV of his partner. I was mostly horrified ho easy it was for him to jump the state line to avoid detection and how poor the forensice evidence was to convict. But worst of all the compliment given to him buy the judge who admired his self presented defence. Made me quite sick.

[Sculptor1]

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) says that cognition and behavior are inter-related and have an influence on each other. If we want to modify behavior, we have to change our thoughts in the first place. The tension that we develop is a result of our perception and the thinking based on that perception. So the change of thinking pattern is the only thing necessary for a positive outcome as per CBT.

But I think our behavior is not only directed by cognition. Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?

I imagine that if mood is the cause of bad behaviour, CBT is unlikely to change much behaviour. Bad moods are often caused not by lack of reasoning but by hormonal changes , illness, reasonable fears, or fatigue.

But bad moods create the hormonal changes, so modifying your behaviour changes the production of hormones.
This is a no brainer CBT works .
One method is to acknoweldge subconscious fears, rather than allow them to fester and change your cheminstry. KNowing what bothers and and owning that helps you deal with problems and avoid them.
We all know that avoiding a fight in the street means that your body will not produce the adrenaline that joining the fight would initiate. The same is true of many other situations.
Your mental state is not a cause of chemistry, it is the chemistry. Moods and chemistry go hand in hand.

Bad moods may be caused by some ideas, and there may be evidence that a bad mood causes lasting physical effects. I would not know.

There are a lot of bad moods that originate willy nilly in biological events such as premenstrual tension, lack of sleep, or low blood sugar.

All true, but being "mindful" of those biological causes and acknowledging them for what they are, offers a better coping mechanism than not recognising them.
I remember of several occassions being in the deep midst of a completely irrational arguement with my female partner and realising in the middle that it was that time of the month. Most of my partners accepted my observations and we were able to draw back on the heat of the debate. There was one woman that took it as an insult and was never able to let herself make an adjustment for her irrationality.
I get irritable myself as I have a problem with chronic neck pain and subconsciously ignore it for several hours. Eventually it is too much but this often expresses itself as shortness in temper. Luckily my partner knows why and understands. But I have ot be reminded sometimes.

[Neil Wallace]

Rather than think whether Cognition and/or Behaviour needs to be changed for the "better". Perhaps, we need to consider what "better" means? Is there there an implicet assumption that better means "more socially useful, happy, motivated, go getter etc." What if I arbitrarilly decide to change my cognition , behaviour to be more depressed, or to become a poor teamworker or time keeper?
Are we desiring to overlay a cultural template of neatly ordered fir trees over a wild chaotic natural forest - I think we understand the long term effect of that strategy - disease.

[Sushan]

This topic is about the November 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide by Gustavo Kinrys, MD


Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) says that cognition and behavior are inter-related and have an influence on each other. If we want to modify behavior, we have to change our thoughts in the first place. The tension that we develop is a result of our perception and the thinking based on that perception. So the change of thinking pattern is the only thing necessary for a positive outcome as per CBT.

But I think our behavior is not only directed by cognition. Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?

I imagine that if mood is the cause of bad behaviour, CBT is unlikely to change much behaviour. Bad moods are often caused not by lack of reasoning but by hormonal changes , illness, reasonable fears, or fatigue.

Mood can be taken as how people show their feelings to the outside world. Normal mood is called euthymic mood and people can have happy, sad, euphoric,depressed moods which can be within a range. Normal people show moods that go hand in hand with their feelings, but mentally ill ones can show incongruent moods.

But one should be mature enough not to let his/her mood affect his/her acts. It is okay to someone to work more efficiently when he/she is happy. But when someone is in a bad mood it is not fair to treat others in a bad manner or to work less efficiently. I think everyone should practice not to let their selves be succumbed to their moods.

[Sushan]

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) says that cognition and behavior are inter-related and have an influence on each other. If we want to modify behavior, we have to change our thoughts in the first place. The tension that we develop is a result of our perception and the thinking based on that perception. So the change of thinking pattern is the only thing necessary for a positive outcome as per CBT.

But I think our behavior is not only directed by cognition. Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?

I imagine that if mood is the cause of bad behaviour, CBT is unlikely to change much behaviour. Bad moods are often caused not by lack of reasoning but by hormonal changes , illness, reasonable fears, or fatigue.

But bad moods create the hormonal changes, so modifying your behaviour changes the production of hormones.
This is a no brainer CBT works .
One method is to acknoweldge subconscious fears, rather than allow them to fester and change your cheminstry. KNowing what bothers and and owning that helps you deal with problems and avoid them.
We all know that avoiding a fight in the street means that your body will not produce the adrenaline that joining the fight would initiate. The same is true of many other situations.
Your mental state is not a cause of chemistry, it is the chemistry. Moods and chemistry go hand in hand.

Psychiatrists who do not believe in the concept of mind say that all our thoughts and feelings are just a result of chemical reactions, and there is nothing called mind but only brain and its chemicals. In that concept it can be said mood is your chemistry.

But in general terms we see how girls act differently in their puberty, women act differently prior to menstruation, and mothers act differently just after child birth. These are periods that women experience hormonal changes. So apparently the hormone levels have a lot to do with emotions.

[Sushan]

... But this acting is usually done by healthy ones to show that they are sick in order to get various benefits, but the other way round is quite rare to occur since there is no gain for them by showing that they are healthy. And also when you are suffering from a psychiatric illness it is hard to pretend like not having such an illness in front of trained eyes of a clinician.

Note the case of psychiatrically ill criminals. There are cases that have been diagnosed severe psychiatric disorders and but are very intelligent excellent actors nevertheless manipulating their interviewers into thinking that an applied therapy has been successful. Thus some have been set free just to take up their criminal behaviour again.

I agree. The infamous serial killer Ted Bundy was a known manipulator. Many of his interviewers believed what he said, though luckily he ended up in death raw. But such skilled people are quite rare. Yes, there are intelligent psychopaths who might pretend as being cured and then continue to carry on with their doings. Best thing is to keep such people detained for a certain time though it will raise human right related issues.

Nothing was gained by killing Bundy. He could have made a great guinea pig for psychological study and help to recognise the signs of emerging psychopaths.
Killing him is just a primitive form of vengeance of no help to the vicitms and their families.

I am not sure whether the family members of his victims felt same about his death. When your loved ones are harmed you expect some sort of justice, and I think the capital punishment gave them the feeling that justice was served. And I am personally stand with the concept of capital punishment because it will set example to atleast some of the criminals and also it will help the world to get rid of atleast one criminal.

And for the scientific experiments, it is widely accepted that experimenting on humans against their will is unethical. This has to be applied to a criminal as well. If the court decided to keep him and use him for researches, don't you think he will gain a set of followers who will go on rioting demanding either to release him or to stop experiments on him?

[Sushan]

Note the case of psychiatrically ill criminals. There are cases that have been diagnosed severe psychiatric disorders and but are very intelligent excellent actors nevertheless manipulating their interviewers into thinking that an applied therapy has been successful. Thus some have been set free just to take up their criminal behaviour again.

I agree. The infamous serial killer Ted Bundy was a known manipulator. Many of his interviewers believed what he said, though luckily he ended up in death raw. But such skilled people are quite rare. Yes, there are intelligent psychopaths who might pretend as being cured and then continue to carry on with their doings. Best thing is to keep such people detained for a certain time though it will raise human right related issues.

Nothing was gained by killing Bundy. He could have made a great guinea pig for psychological study and help to recognise the signs of emerging psychopaths.
Killing him is just a primitive form of vengeance of no help to the vicitms and their families.

I agree executing Ted Bundy was not a "gain". It probably saved a few dollars in elder care costs but overall was a wash. The very real and important issues of equity and reliability of the justice system did not come into play in his particular case, but are overriding negatives of capital punishment.

I do not think that the courts or judges acted against him. Since the jury system was there the decision could have been biased. But since we cannot resurrect the died ones, atleast the culprit should have a way to pay for his crimes.

I think the gain from his punishment was a social one. It may have shown the society that the justice system is trustworthy, the families of the victims may have felt as justice was served, and atleast several lives of girls were spared.

[Sushan]

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) says that cognition and behavior are inter-related and have an influence on each other. If we want to modify behavior, we have to change our thoughts in the first place. The tension that we develop is a result of our perception and the thinking based on that perception. So the change of thinking pattern is the only thing necessary for a positive outcome as per CBT.

But I think our behavior is not only directed by cognition. Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?

I imagine that if mood is the cause of bad behaviour, CBT is unlikely to change much behaviour. Bad moods are often caused not by lack of reasoning but by hormonal changes , illness, reasonable fears, or fatigue.

But bad moods create the hormonal changes, so modifying your behaviour changes the production of hormones.
This is a no brainer CBT works .
One method is to acknoweldge subconscious fears, rather than allow them to fester and change your cheminstry. KNowing what bothers and and owning that helps you deal with problems and avoid them.
We all know that avoiding a fight in the street means that your body will not produce the adrenaline that joining the fight would initiate. The same is true of many other situations.
Your mental state is not a cause of chemistry, it is the chemistry. Moods and chemistry go hand in hand.

Bad moods may be caused by some ideas, and there may be evidence that a bad mood causes lasting physical effects. I would not know.

There are a lot of bad moods that originate willy nilly in biological events such as premenstrual tension, lack of sleep, or low blood sugar.

The changes in hormonal levels of our body can be very well associated with our moods. But it is quite difficult to exactly say so or prove since there are external facts that too play at the same time.

If we take menstruation as an example, it is true that oestrogen and progesterone levels are changed in the time period. And these hormones have a lot to do with a woman's mood. OTOH menstruation is a problematic period for any woman. They have to wear sanitary pads, and are not able to wear whatever they like, and also cannot engage sexually with their partners. So these factors too can affect them negatively and affect the mood. So it is hard to determine the exact level of affect of hormones to the mood.

[LuckyR]

I agree. The infamous serial killer Ted Bundy was a known manipulator. Many of his interviewers believed what he said, though luckily he ended up in death raw. But such skilled people are quite rare. Yes, there are intelligent psychopaths who might pretend as being cured and then continue to carry on with their doings. Best thing is to keep such people detained for a certain time though it will raise human right related issues.

Nothing was gained by killing Bundy. He could have made a great guinea pig for psychological study and help to recognise the signs of emerging psychopaths.
Killing him is just a primitive form of vengeance of no help to the vicitms and their families.

I agree executing Ted Bundy was not a "gain". It probably saved a few dollars in elder care costs but overall was a wash. The very real and important issues of equity and reliability of the justice system did not come into play in his particular case, but are overriding negatives of capital punishment.

I do not think that the courts or judges acted against him. Since the jury system was there the decision could have been biased. But since we cannot resurrect the died ones, atleast the culprit should have a way to pay for his crimes.

I think the gain from his punishment was a social one. It may have shown the society that the justice system is trustworthy, the families of the victims may have felt as justice was served, and atleast several lives of girls were spared.

It is a false choice to imply that the only, or best way to pay for crimes committed is the death penalty. As to trustworthiness, Bundy's case specifically is an example of justice but it is the exception, the vast majority of capital cases are against poor folk without adequate legal representation and police and prosecutors seeking to improve their stats by any and all means, legal or otherwise.

[Belindi]

I imagine that if mood is the cause of bad behaviour, CBT is unlikely to change much behaviour. Bad moods are often caused not by lack of reasoning but by hormonal changes , illness, reasonable fears, or fatigue.

But bad moods create the hormonal changes, so modifying your behaviour changes the production of hormones.
This is a no brainer CBT works .
One method is to acknoweldge subconscious fears, rather than allow them to fester and change your cheminstry. KNowing what bothers and and owning that helps you deal with problems and avoid them.
We all know that avoiding a fight in the street means that your body will not produce the adrenaline that joining the fight would initiate. The same is true of many other situations.
Your mental state is not a cause of chemistry, it is the chemistry. Moods and chemistry go hand in hand.

Bad moods may be caused by some ideas, and there may be evidence that a bad mood causes lasting physical effects. I would not know.

There are a lot of bad moods that originate willy nilly in biological events such as premenstrual tension, lack of sleep, or low blood sugar.

All true, but being "mindful" of those biological causes and acknowledging them for what they are, offers a better coping mechanism than not recognising them.
I remember of several occassions being in the deep midst of a completely irrational arguement with my female partner and realising in the middle that it was that time of the month. Most of my partners accepted my observations and we were able to draw back on the heat of the debate. There was one woman that took it as an insult and was never able to let herself make an adjustment for her irrationality.
I get irritable myself as I have a problem with chronic neck pain and subconsciously ignore it for several hours. Eventually it is too much but this often expresses itself as shortness in temper. Luckily my partner knows why and understands. But I have ot be reminded sometimes.

I heartily agree that possessing insight into one's own bad moods makes the bad moods more bearable. Put another way, if I can be objective about my bad mood I can go to sleep, drink water, eat some food, remind myself of what I do next, and so forth. I had not known that CBT taught people to be objective in the sense of insight into the causes of their own moods.

The remedies I listed above are physical depending as they do on the belief the bad mood originates in the body including the brain. I'd feel uncomfortable about some authority figure in a metaphorical white coat telling me my ideas about my outer environment are wrong and that is why I am in a bad mood.

If the white-coated authority tells me my behaviour XYZ is dangerous and alternative PQR behaviour is how I can be more safe and more happy I'd find that a lot more credible than being told changing my mind will sort my mood problem. I imagine CBT is designed for people who have decided to change their behaviour but CBT is not for people who are required to change their minds. Your intransigent friend who could not take your advice perhaps had that sort of personality, or else the trait was a feature of the relationship itself.

(Just a thought about your neck, did you ever try a 'heat lamp' ? (Called infra red to help to not confuse it with an ultra violet lamp) . Physiotherapists used to use them to alleviate local musculo-skeletal pain. )

[Sculptor1]

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) says that cognition and behavior are inter-related and have an influence on each other. If we want to modify behavior, we have to change our thoughts in the first place. The tension that we develop is a result of our perception and the thinking based on that perception. So the change of thinking pattern is the only thing necessary for a positive outcome as per CBT.

But I think our behavior is not only directed by cognition. Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?

I imagine that if mood is the cause of bad behaviour, CBT is unlikely to change much behaviour. Bad moods are often caused not by lack of reasoning but by hormonal changes , illness, reasonable fears, or fatigue.

But bad moods create the hormonal changes, so modifying your behaviour changes the production of hormones.
This is a no brainer CBT works .
One method is to acknoweldge subconscious fears, rather than allow them to fester and change your cheminstry. KNowing what bothers and and owning that helps you deal with problems and avoid them.
We all know that avoiding a fight in the street means that your body will not produce the adrenaline that joining the fight would initiate. The same is true of many other situations.
Your mental state is not a cause of chemistry, it is the chemistry. Moods and chemistry go hand in hand.

Psychiatrists who do not believe in the concept of mind say that all our thoughts and feelings are just a result of chemical reactions, and there is nothing called mind but only brain and its chemicals. In that concept it can be said mood is your chemistry.

DO they?? Please cite!

But in general terms we see how girls act differently in their puberty, women act differently prior to menstruation, and mothers act differently just after child birth. These are periods that women experience hormonal changes. So apparently the hormone levels have a lot to do with emotions.

It's also true with men.