Philosophy Discussion Forums

stevie wrote: ↑September 6th, 2021, 10:27 am

Sushan wrote: ↑September 5th, 2021, 9:02 pm If a person is refusing to go to a highly profitable investment because of the risks that are associated with, how can we provide insight and change his mind to accept the risk?

Why should one want to persuade anybody of anything?

That can be due to various reasons. The close ones that truly expect something good for you will persuade you to follow a path of success. The well wishers may do the same. And there are people who do that for their job, the professionals in advising for your success. Why should one think about the reason for someone persuading him, of the persuading is done for good?

Sushan wrote: ↑September 2nd, 2021, 10:04 pm

stevie wrote: ↑September 2nd, 2021, 3:19 am

Sushan wrote: ↑September 2nd, 2021, 2:27 am ...
I think what you mentioned too can be more or less classified into these groups. So where does insanity belong to?

I have not taken my classification from any authoritative scientific source. It just came to my mind when thinking about the topic.

To me "insanity" appears to be a colloquial term that people use depending on contexts and individual judgements. Therefore I would refrain from using it seriously in a philosophical forum. The behavior the author refers to might be better characterized by scientific measures taken from sources like behavior analysis, psychotherapy and the like. It always depends on the harm caused by a certain type of behavior (for self or other) whether a behavior needs to be modified therapeutically. E.g. if someone is caught up in a behavior loop and therefore does not reach a desired goal then this may cause suffering which then may be a case for therapy.

People can be caught up in behaviour loops for many reasons. Maybe they are actually obsessive in that behaviour and that will definitely need therapeutic interventions. But what about those who are afraid of change? There are many who do the same thing over and over again without much success simply because that is well known to them and they are afraid of taking the leap of faith. Seemingly the author has referred to them as insanes. What can be done for such people to help them to get out of their behaviour loops?

I think that insane is closely allied with delusions. Most people I have met that I would term insane live in an imaginary world of their own making. There are all different levels of this from the mildly delusional to the extreme level. This however is only one aspect of insanity. Would you consider a person who sang like a frog croaking but thought they would win American Idol for sure insane??? Maybe and maybe not. Delusional for sure but maybe not really crazy.

Sushan wrote: ↑September 6th, 2021, 10:15 pm

stevie wrote: ↑September 6th, 2021, 10:27 am

Sushan wrote: ↑September 5th, 2021, 9:02 pm If a person is refusing to go to a highly profitable investment because of the risks that are associated with, how can we provide insight and change his mind to accept the risk?

Why should one want to persuade anybody of anything?

That can be due to various reasons. The close ones that truly expect something good for you will persuade you to follow a path of success. The well wishers may do the same. And there are people who do that for their job, the professionals in advising for your success. Why should one think about the reason for someone persuading him, of the persuading is done for good?

The starting point has been the view of "insanity" provided by the author. I have stated that from my perspective "insanity" isn't an appropriate term but that it might be about potentially obsessive behaviour harming self and/or other (causing suffering) and being a case for therapy. Without this suffering I cannot see any reason to give advice when I've not been asked for advice (at least implicitly). And if asked for advice I can only comment from my perspective: why the problem of the other isn't a problem for me or what I would do if I had the same problem or what I have done earlier when I've had the same problem.
I am not in a position to know a generally valid "path of success" because what people experience as "success" or as "good" usually is very different. And if someone has a different professional background than I have how could I be able to give advice as to her/his professional issues? I can only refer to persons with the same professional background.

FranknBerry wrote: ↑September 6th, 2021, 2:32 pm

stevie wrote: ↑September 6th, 2021, 10:27 am

Sushan wrote: ↑September 5th, 2021, 9:02 pm If a person is refusing to go to a highly profitable investment because of the risks that are associated with, how can we provide insight and change his mind to accept the risk?

Why should one want to persuade anybody of anything?

We all have our own unique perception of the world that we are forever attempting to persuade others to align with. The act of questioning the want of persuading others is indicative of attempting to persuade. My response to that question is another attempt at persuading. We "want" things to align with how they exist in our "minds". Perceptually, the "why" of it is dependent on the perception held. In regards to business the why is often to acquire more money. In law enforcement the why is to protect and serve. In war the why is to bolster your forces to better your odds of winning. An infinite number of possible whys in perception. A single reason as to why in "nature". Magnets "persuade" other objects to alter their directions/states to align with their particular direction/state.

I agree. We have different thoughts and opinions about being successful. And most often they are influenced by what we see and hear from the surrounding world. We see billionaires and we dream to be like them. Some look at spiritual leaders and target to be so. And that is same for military leaders as well. And in addition to our personal intentions, people who love us also love to see us succeeding. So that is also a reason for someone to go after higher goals and higher achievements.

And there are people who actually love to persuade others and drive them towards success. So they become mentors. What they see as success is achieving success as a bunch. The communists too have a similar opinion, though it is doubtful them letting anyone to reach higher levels than their peers.

fionaimmodest wrote: ↑September 6th, 2021, 10:57 pm

Sushan wrote: ↑September 2nd, 2021, 10:04 pm

stevie wrote: ↑September 2nd, 2021, 3:19 am

Sushan wrote: ↑September 2nd, 2021, 2:27 am ...
I think what you mentioned too can be more or less classified into these groups. So where does insanity belong to?

I have not taken my classification from any authoritative scientific source. It just came to my mind when thinking about the topic.

To me "insanity" appears to be a colloquial term that people use depending on contexts and individual judgements. Therefore I would refrain from using it seriously in a philosophical forum. The behavior the author refers to might be better characterized by scientific measures taken from sources like behavior analysis, psychotherapy and the like. It always depends on the harm caused by a certain type of behavior (for self or other) whether a behavior needs to be modified therapeutically. E.g. if someone is caught up in a behavior loop and therefore does not reach a desired goal then this may cause suffering which then may be a case for therapy.

People can be caught up in behaviour loops for many reasons. Maybe they are actually obsessive in that behaviour and that will definitely need therapeutic interventions. But what about those who are afraid of change? There are many who do the same thing over and over again without much success simply because that is well known to them and they are afraid of taking the leap of faith. Seemingly the author has referred to them as insanes. What can be done for such people to help them to get out of their behaviour loops?

I think that insane is closely allied with delusions. Most people I have met that I would term insane live in an imaginary world of their own making. There are all different levels of this from the mildly delusional to the extreme level. This however is only one aspect of insanity. Would you consider a person who sang like a frog croaking but thought they would win American Idol for sure insane??? Maybe and maybe not. Delusional for sure but maybe not really crazy.

If we talk with some clinical sense a delusion is a strong belief which is not amenable to any explanations. And also it is not supported by cultural norms. And there is a difference between false self esteem and being delusional, and these two can have common qualities as well. As per your American Idol example, that person maybe just having an unnecessarily high self esteem. But if he is not listening to others when they say that he has to further improve his skills then that is being delusional.

stevie wrote: ↑September 7th, 2021, 1:13 am

Sushan wrote: ↑September 6th, 2021, 10:15 pm

stevie wrote: ↑September 6th, 2021, 10:27 am

Sushan wrote: ↑September 5th, 2021, 9:02 pm If a person is refusing to go to a highly profitable investment because of the risks that are associated with, how can we provide insight and change his mind to accept the risk?

Why should one want to persuade anybody of anything?

That can be due to various reasons. The close ones that truly expect something good for you will persuade you to follow a path of success. The well wishers may do the same. And there are people who do that for their job, the professionals in advising for your success. Why should one think about the reason for someone persuading him, of the persuading is done for good?

The starting point has been the view of "insanity" provided by the author. I have stated that from my perspective "insanity" isn't an appropriate term but that it might be about potentially obsessive behaviour harming self and/or other (causing suffering) and being a case for therapy. Without this suffering I cannot see any reason to give advice when I've not been asked for advice (at least implicitly). And if asked for advice I can only comment from my perspective: why the problem of the other isn't a problem for me or what I would do if I had the same problem or what I have done earlier when I've had the same problem.
I am not in a position to know a generally valid "path of success" because what people experience as "success" or as "good" usually is very different. And if someone has a different professional background than I have how could I be able to give advice as to her/his professional issues? I can only refer to persons with the same professional background.

Advice and motivation are different things. Anyone can motivate anyone, if one has the wish. A simple "you can do that" will be motivational for many, though for the highly depressed ones a professional will ve required.

But advising is showing someone a path, the plans, and how to execute. And, as you said, for that one need a thorough knowledge in the particular field. A doctor cannot advice and engineer, and an engineer cannot advice a proctor. But any of these fellows can motivate the other, and persuade them to achieve higher goals and success.

An individual should not become definition, however, an individual should recognize definition. The general concept of the word insanity is a bit broad due to humans abusing the concept. I have found that defining words again to be more accurate helps tremendously. The core concept of Insanity personifies this perspective.

**** Insanity ****

-Insanity (Objective) Information prompting and expressing as irregular or extreme irregular mathematical patterning, that is considered not conducive to the individual's or other's survival.

-Insanity (Subjective) An individual that expresses differently than social perspective norms of expression. The more an individual expresses extreme difference in what is considered "irrational" behavior, the more they are perceived as "insane."

An individual is only "insane" in proportion to their imagination. An individual either becomes the chaos that surrounds them or dies by the chaos that haunts them. Technically, the universe and creation is erratic or insane. SOooo technically, insanity is used to build, create, and destroy....

Respectfully,
Lloyd R Shisler (Social Engineer)

. That which is opposite to the mob psychology is insane ...

. Even if, intrinsically, sanity is that which is not conceived by the crowd.

. That which is not part of the the mob's set of customs ... reglardless how insane they might be ... is insane.

. Even if, insanity is indeed sanity and sanity is indeed insanity.

I try not to get to caught up in the details of insanity or sanity. If I do, I find that I lose myself in the insanity of it all.

Anand_Haqq wrote: ↑September 14th, 2021, 4:23 pm . That which is opposite to the mob psychology is insane ...

. Even if, intrinsically, sanity is that which is not conceived by the crowd.

. That which is not part of the the mob's set of customs ... reglardless how insane they might be ... is insane.

. Even if, insanity is indeed sanity and sanity is indeed insanity.

I think you are trying to imply that sanity or insanity is defined by the majority, and yes, I agree. Most of the great scientists in the history have been considered insane by their teachers. In the era of 'students are not supposed to question the teacher' the inquisitive ones were marked as insane. So, yes, the mob plays a big role in defining sanity (or insanity). And in most occasions the insanity which is defined by the crowd is simply a different form from the accepted uusual, despite it being correct or not.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” —Albert Einstein

Wow! What a tremendous insight! And to think it took all the genius of Einstein to figure that one out! Another great 20th century revelation whose mysteries have not yet been fully expounded.

ExistenceofSelf wrote: ↑September 14th, 2021, 4:33 pm I try not to get to caught up in the details of insanity or sanity. If I do, I find that I lose myself in the insanity of it all.

If we think deep we may realize that there is only a thin margin between sanity and insanity. So it is quite hard sometimes to differentiate the two distinctivly. It is better to limit it to a superficial discussion rather than thinking over it again and again, and if not, as you said, it may drive you towards insanity