Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[JackDaydream]

Hello, and I am glad to meet you in the afterlife. I found this site online last night and was pleased to find you and your thread are safe. I am now having a dual existence as a daydream and I will keep this interaction as a gnostic secret. I am still trying to navigate this site, and haven't worked out what to press to make sure that you get notified about my reply.

I am familiar with speaking in tongues in the context of hearing about it from people I know who go to church services where they practice it. I think that it may well be trying to express the ineffable, and I do have a lot of sympathy with mysticism, and, perhaps, I will feel able to talk about this more in my daydream identity. When I was thinking about whether philosophical mysteries can be solved, I remember reading, 'A Vision,' by Y B Yeats. He spoke of a complex system of tyres, and I believe that this is about tuning into different levels of awareness.

I believe that the process of being aware of different aspects of reality beyond the physical is very intricate, and the territory of the mystics and shamen. I have a friend who is an artist in residence at a church who describes her own painting as 'channeling the Holy Spirit.' The concept of channeling is complex indeed. I remember experimenting with drawing from the subconscious, based on Jung's idea of active imagination when I was studying art therapy.

But, of course, journeys to otherworlds come with dangers. Here, we can speak of so many broken shaman musicians, especially those who took shortcuts via psychedelics. But, 'the doors of perception' were opened by many naturally. Blake and Swedenborg saw angels. Jung conversed with a spirit guide, Philemon, and I definitely think that many encountered other realms in poetry, including the metaphysical poet, John Donne. I believe that this other realm is very important as a creative resource for human beings.

[3017Metaphysician]

Hello, and I am glad to meet you in the afterlife. I found this site online last night and was pleased to find you and your thread are safe. I am now having a dual existence as a daydream and I will keep this interaction as a gnostic secret. I am still trying to navigate this site, and haven't worked out what to press to make sure that you get notified about my reply.

I am familiar with speaking in tongues in the context of hearing about it from people I know who go to church services where they practice it. I think that it may well be trying to express the ineffable, and I do have a lot of sympathy with mysticism, and, perhaps, I will feel able to talk about this more in my daydream identity. When I was thinking about whether philosophical mysteries can be solved, I remember reading, 'A Vision,' by Y B Yeats. He spoke of a complex system of tyres, and I believe that this is about tuning into different levels of awareness.

I believe that the process of being aware of different aspects of reality beyond the physical is very intricate, and the territory of the mystics and shamen. I have a friend who is an artist in residence at a church who describes her own painting as 'channeling the Holy Spirit.' The concept of channeling is complex indeed. I remember experimenting with drawing from the subconscious, based on Jung's idea of active imagination when I was studying art therapy.

But, of course, journeys to otherworlds come with dangers. Here, we can speak of so many broken shaman musicians, especially those who took shortcuts via psychedelics. But, 'the doors of perception' were opened by many naturally. Blake and Swedenborg saw angels. Jung conversed with a spirit guide, Philemon, and I definitely think that many encountered other realms in poetry, including the metaphysical poet, John Donne. I believe that this other realm is very important as a creative resource for human beings.

Jack!

Welcome to the afterlife it is so good to see you! That of course, comes from a different kind of perspective and awareness that includes a type of esoteric recreation of sorts

Accordingly, your post reminded me of Plato and Pathagoras. Not only does the universal language of math and music provide for such esoteric recreation, its mystical significance relates to our own physical reality. The irony there is that this universal and meta-physical language describes our physical reality.so effectively. And whether metaphorically it is the Einsteinian music of the spheres or early Greek numerology and Platonic realms of independent existence, we still have an eccentric or esoteric language that is abstract by its very nature.

For the physicist, the engineer, the meta-physical poet and musician, we dable in that abstract language. On many levels, you seem to have uncovered your own form of mystical significance. In all of our professional and personal lives there are creative Revelations that produce novel (novel to the individual) discoveries that can improve our own way if being. Hopefully, these experiences and asociated discoveries can be enjoyed by others.

Great seeing you Jack! I hope to hear from you soon.

[Leontiskos]

Since there are other theories and philosophy that might be able to offer explanations for similar phenomena or questions that even hint to metaphysics and the nature of reality, I analogized to the foregoing comments about the limits of human reason, and wondered what the significance or implications of Glossolalia (speak-in-tongues) might be (even though it comes across as nonsense). As a musician, I can interperate that as maybe improvisation where the music just comes out free-form… .

Is that a phenomenon, where if nothing else, does exist, and further suggests another logically possible world with its own set of logic and language? Is that a phenomenal manifestation of what Kant referred to as a noumenal world-concept or view? Cosmologically, what kind of logic accounts for something outside of time to cause time itself (temporal v. eternal)? How does the concepts of logical necessity (mathematical truths/logic) and logically possible worlds fit into a proposed philosophy of Glossolalia?

I am not sure if it makes sense to posit glossolalia as transcending human rationality, and then at the next step place glossolalia into the category of "logic and language." In a similar vein, Protagoras wonders whether "some forms of glossolia are non discursive expressions of truth from one's soul/subconscious." One wonders what is meant by "truth" in this sentence.

As I understand it, glossolalia is understood as a kind of divine communication or channeling of the divine. Notably, there are also those who are said to interpret glossolalia, which at first blush lends credence to your theory that it may be a higher language. But I don't think the phenomenon is understood to be properly linguistic, even by those who practice it. That is, someone with a lifetime of experience with glossolalia would not be able to codify the language. The idea is that something which transcends human beings speaks or sounds through human beings, and if that phenomenon were linguistic or codifiable then it would no longer transcend human rationality.

The value placed on glossolalia has little to do with truth or rationality. The value is communion with the transcendent divine, and the (non-rational) power of the divine being channeled through the glossolalia. Examples would be miracles such as healings or supernatural experiences, not the comprehension of intelligible propositional truths. As far as incommunicability goes, maybe you could try to attach the word "truth" in the sense of being conformed to the divine or being made privy to divine, transcendent realities. Yet I would rather prefer terms like "deification," "ecstasy," or, "mystical union." Yet it is true that both truth and glossolalia are communicable realities. That is, both are ordered outward, towards other beings. So I suppose you could say that the person speaking in tongues is communicating something to his hearers, but would it be proper to call this, "truth"? I doubt it. I think it would require too much leg work to call it truth. I would want to call glossolalia transformative rather than communicative.

This all seems more Platonic than Kantian, for it involves metaphysics in one form or another. That said, I'm not familiar with Kant's "noumenal world-concept or view." I assume it is a world-concept which he takes to be false insofar as it breaks through the phenomenal realm?


I am a musician as well. Do you understand music to have its own "logic and language"? I think music surely does have a logic and a language, but I am hesitant to say the same thing about glossolalia. We can study and understand music, even if we do not fully comprehend it. I don't think glossolalia even allows us to go that far. Nevertheless, the music analogy is an interesting one!


(I have never witnessed glossolalia, but I have read a little bit about the phenomenon, so take what I say with a grain of salt)

Best,
Leontiskos

[3017Metaphysician]

Since there are other theories and philosophy that might be able to offer explanations for similar phenomena or questions that even hint to metaphysics and the nature of reality, I analogized to the foregoing comments about the limits of human reason, and wondered what the significance or implications of Glossolalia (speak-in-tongues) might be (even though it comes across as nonsense). As a musician, I can interperate that as maybe improvisation where the music just comes out free-form… .

Is that a phenomenon, where if nothing else, does exist, and further suggests another logically possible world with its own set of logic and language? Is that a phenomenal manifestation of what Kant referred to as a noumenal world-concept or view? Cosmologically, what kind of logic accounts for something outside of time to cause time itself (temporal v. eternal)? How does the concepts of logical necessity (mathematical truths/logic) and logically possible worlds fit into a proposed philosophy of Glossolalia?

I am not sure if it makes sense to posit glossolalia as transcending human rationality, and then at the next step place glossolalia into the category of "logic and language." In a similar vein, Protagoras wonders whether "some forms of glossolia are non discursive expressions of truth from one's soul/subconscious." One wonders what is meant by "truth" in this sentence.

As I understand it, glossolalia is understood as a kind of divine communication or channeling of the divine. Notably, there are also those who are said to interpret glossolalia, which at first blush lends credence to your theory that it may be a higher language. But I don't think the phenomenon is understood to be properly linguistic, even by those who practice it. That is, someone with a lifetime of experience with glossolalia would not be able to codify the language. The idea is that something which transcends human beings speaks or sounds through human beings, and if that phenomenon were linguistic or codifiable then it would no longer transcend human rationality.

The value placed on glossolalia has little to do with truth or rationality. The value is communion with the transcendent divine, and the (non-rational) power of the divine being channeled through the glossolalia. Examples would be miracles such as healings or supernatural experiences, not the comprehension of intelligible propositional truths. As far as incommunicability goes, maybe you could try to attach the word "truth" in the sense of being conformed to the divine or being made privy to divine, transcendent realities. Yet I would rather prefer terms like "deification," "ecstasy," or, "mystical union." Yet it is true that both truth and glossolalia are communicable realities. That is, both are ordered outward, towards other beings. So I suppose you could say that the person speaking in tongues is communicating something to his hearers, but would it be proper to call this, "truth"? I doubt it. I think it would require too much leg work to call it truth. I would want to call glossolalia transformative rather than communicative.

This all seems more Platonic than Kantian, for it involves metaphysics in one form or another. That said, I'm not familiar with Kant's "noumenal world-concept or view." I assume it is a world-concept which he takes to be false insofar as it breaks through the phenomenal realm?


I am a musician as well. Do you understand music to have its own "logic and language"? I think music surely does have a logic and a language, but I am hesitant to say the same thing about glossolalia. We can study and understand music, even if we do not fully comprehend it. I don't think glossolalia even allows us to go that far. Nevertheless, the music analogy is an interesting one!


(I have never witnessed glossolalia, but I have read a little bit about the phenomenon, so take what I say with a grain of salt)

Best,
Leontiskos

Hello Leontiskos!

To your first point, yes, Protagorus raised an interesting notion of something that's considered non-discursive (the language of music itself), yet we call music a type of universal language nonetheless. Seems contradictory. Thanks for pointed that out, because for one reason it speaks to (pardon the pun) how we apperceive our own "truth". In the context of William James that once again reminds me of the ineffable: Philosophy lives in words, but truth and fact well up into our lives in ways that exceed verbal formulation. There is in the living act of perception always something that glimmers and twinkles and will not be caught, and for which reflection comes too late. No one knows this as well as the philosopher.


That being said, if existentially we cannot escape the need to use reason in order to make sense of the world, how shall we proceed? Meaning, are 'legitimate' explanations for things-in-themselves only true when it is explained rationally(?). Glossolalia, much like any other mystery associated with the nature of existence/reality, may itself be something that is not absurd or meaningless. But instead, something that has no explanation in the usual sense to where understanding of its properties lie outside the usual categories of rational human thought. Using logic, that seams transcendent by definition.

Much like the metaphysical nature of our apperception of music itself, we have another type of language that is non-discursive, yet is a spoken and/or represents a kind of audible truth nonetheless. I agree that if one could codify such language (very good point, thank you), then it could represent a type of logically objective truth. Which in turn, is not that much different than studying music theory itself, but unfortunately for Glossolalia, we have no written sheet music to analyze

Among other things, I am going to study it a bit more to see if those who speak in tongues are aware of what they are doing.

I agree that the analogy to this phenomena seems more Platonic in its realm of another logically possible world existing (world of mathematical truth's). But in this context, what Kant taught us was logic itself, eventually breaks down during one's search for meanings and explanations about the nature of existence (things-in-themselves). In my view, the regressive notion of a noumenal realm of existence is no less absurd than a logically necessary Being, as derived from mathematical truth's (a priori logic/Ontological argument/mathematical truth's/tautologies). It's like saying there are no true propositions. But if there exists necessary propositions, then the notion of a necessary realm of being is not obviously absurd. Hence the idea of noumena. He thought there was something beyond reason, that could explain things-in-themselves. Whether we have access to such realm, is the subject of the OP.

[JackDaydream]

[quote=3017Metaphysician




Jack!

Welcome to the afterlife it is so good to see you! That of course, comes from a different kind of perspective and awareness that includes a type of esoteric recreation of sorts

Accordingly, your post reminded me of Plato and Pathagoras. Not only does the universal language of math and music provide for such esoteric recreation, its mystical significance relates to our own physical reality. The irony there is that this universal and meta-physical language describes our physical effectively. And whether metaphorically it is the Einsteinian music of the spheres or early Greek numerology and Platonic realms of independent existence, we still have an eccentric or esoteric language that is abstract by its very nature.

For the physicist, the engineer, the meta-physical poet and musician, we dable in that abstract language. On many levels, you seem to have uncovered your own form of mystical significance. In all of our professional and personal lives there are creative Revelations that produce novel (novel to the individual) discoveries that can improve our own way if being. Hopefully, these experiences and asociated discoveries can be enjoyed by others.

Great seeing you Jack! I hope to hear from you soon.
[/quote]

Thanks for your reply, and I think that Plato's ideas and Kant' a ideas are especially relevant. One discussion I am aware of relevant to this is Rudolf Otto's, 'The Idea of the Holy'. He speaks of religious experiences as the numinous, as they arise in our consciousness. He connects this to Kant's idea of the noumenon, but he doesn't come to clear conclusions about the transcendent itself, but that is probably because of the limitations of epistemology. Jung's own discussion of symbolic figures from the unconscious is based upon the idea of archetypes, derived from Plato, but it is based on psychological descriptions. However, Jung does have a certain emphasis on the collective unconscious as an objective realm.

I am interested in the theosophical tradition and the possibility of knowledge of supersensible realms as described by Rudolf Steiner in, 'Knowledge of Higher Worlds'.The theosophists speak of a quest to gain knowledge. Meditation may be part of this. The singer Van Morrison is particularly interested in mysticism and knowledge. I don't know if you know his album, 'Inarticulate Speech or the Heart', but I feel that he verges on singing in tongues at times.

[3017Metaphysician]

[quote=3017Metaphysician




Jack!

Welcome to the afterlife it is so good to see you! That of course, comes from a different kind of perspective and awareness that includes a type of esoteric recreation of sorts

Accordingly, your post reminded me of Plato and Pathagoras. Not only does the universal language of math and music provide for such esoteric recreation, its mystical significance relates to our own physical reality. The irony there is that this universal and meta-physical language describes our physical effectively. And whether metaphorically it is the Einsteinian music of the spheres or early Greek numerology and Platonic realms of independent existence, we still have an eccentric or esoteric language that is abstract by its very nature.

For the physicist, the engineer, the meta-physical poet and musician, we dable in that abstract language. On many levels, you seem to have uncovered your own form of mystical significance. In all of our professional and personal lives there are creative Revelations that produce novel (novel to the individual) discoveries that can improve our own way if being. Hopefully, these experiences and asociated discoveries can be enjoyed by others.

Great seeing you Jack! I hope to hear from you soon.

Thanks for your reply, and I think that Plato's ideas and Kant' a ideas are especially relevant. One discussion I am aware of relevant to this is Rudolf Otto's, 'The Idea of the Holy'. He speaks of religious experiences as the numinous, as they arise in our consciousness. He connects this to Kant's idea of the noumenon, but he doesn't come to clear conclusions about the transcendent itself, but that is probably because of the limitations of epistemology. Jung's own discussion of symbolic figures from the unconscious is based upon the idea of archetypes, derived from Plato, but it is based on psychological descriptions. However, Jung does have a certain emphasis on the collective unconscious as an objective realm.

I am interested in the theosophical tradition and the possibility of knowledge of supersensible realms as described by Rudolf Steiner in, 'Knowledge of Higher Worlds'.The theosophists speak of a quest to gain knowledge. Meditation may be part of this. The singer Van Morrison is particularly interested in mysticism and knowledge. I don't know if you know his album, 'Inarticulate Speech or the Heart', but I feel that he verges on singing in tongues at times.
[/quote]

Hello again Jack!

The first part of your reply reminded me of the Schopenhauer quote: "...we are the phenomenological manifestation of the noumenal... ". As you may know, there are only a few old-schooler's that bothered to study the effect that music has on the human psyche. Continental philosophy and post modernism seemed to recognize phenomenology for what it is... . This 'feeling' of transcendence, may be as analogous to abstract Platonic ideas (the language of math) as it is to Kant and Pythagoras (irrational numbers/transcendental numbers) and their notion of something beyond physical objects (things-in-themselves) and the nature of reality (metaphysics) .

I can tell you as a performer of music, there are times where I am completely unaware of my conscious mind doing that which I think I'm doing, only to 'snap out of it' later, and come back 'to my Kantian senses'. That's probably no different than music being a 'memory' for someone who is listening to same. This effect seems to tap into a subconscious realm of Being, that was always there (from memory), it's just that the music somehow brought it out into the conscious mind. The takeaway there is that something (music?) allowed us to have no control. Something directed or interrupted our normal stream of consciousness

Schopenhauer also writes:

Music is as immediate an objectification and copy of the whole will as the world itself is, indeed as the Ideas are, the multiplied phenomenon of which constitutes the world of individual things. Therefore music is by no means like the other arts, namely a copy of the Ideas, but a copy of the will itself, the objectivity of which are the Ideas. For this reason the effect of music is so very much more powerful and penetrating than is that of the other arts, for these others speak only of the shadow, but music of the essence.

The inexpressible depth of all music, by virtue of which it floats past us as a paradise quite familiar and yet eternally remote, and is so easy to understand and yet so inexplicable, is due to the fact that it reproduces all the emotions of our innermost being, but entirely without reality and remote from its pain. In the same way, the seriousness essential to it and wholly excluding the ludicrous from its direct and peculiar province is to be explained from the fact that its object is not the representation, in regard to which deception and ridiculousness alone are possible, but that this object is directly the will; and this is essentially the most serious of all things, as being that on which all depends.



You can find some interesting commentary here: https://www.amherst.edu/academiclife/de ... hopenhauer

Anyway, I think the idea of phenomenology working through transcendence and noumena provides for the concepts of the unknown. In other words, for something that is unknown, like things-in-themselves, we are able to have phenomenal experiences that glimmers and teases us thus giving us reason to wonder about this same idea of the unknown, to where curiosity leads us back to the logic of causation or causational forces. For instance, where is this information/energy located which is causing one to experience something that they have no control over(?). Perhaps we can make sense of it through the philosophy of The World as Will, I'm not positive. But as you suggest, cognitive science may have more to say about that... . Thank you Jack!

[JackDaydream]

@3017Metaphysican
Thanks for your reply, in which you discuss the noumena in relation to the unknown. I do plan to read more in the direction of phenomenology because the question whether the subjective experience relates to the objective is important.


This is especially relevant to music and the other arts. I remember a friend once suggesting that the music of the rock band, Hawkwind, would definitely take listeners into specific dimensions of experience. I found that this worked for me but I like prog rock, but I am not convinced that all listeners would be taken into the same place objectively because music tastes are so individual and unique. But, I do think that music of our own choice is definitely a way of accessing experience beyond the mundane. Even though I am not a music performer I have always found music to be essential since I began going to record shops as a child, and I do still seek out new music releases on a regular basis and I do enjoy the shared experience of live music and music festivals.


I have read one book which discusses Shopenhauer's views on the metaphysics of music, which is 'Aesthetics and Subjectivity From Kant to Nietzsche,' by Andrew Bowie (2003, Manchester University Press). The author suggests that Schopenhauer's aesthetic theory involves 'an inverted Platonism', and that it 'attempts to demonstrate the metaphysical truth of art, especially music through an emphasis upon regarding ' "intuition" present in art as superior to concepts.'


I definitely believe that when we engage in the creative process we access a different kind of reality to the day to day one which we access. I know that if if I am involved in making art, or if I am writing, that I can almost become oblivious to my surroundings at times. I think that while it difficult to say that it is an objective reality as a category it is certainly a powerful aspect of our existence, which can transform our consciousness, even when we go back into the ordinary aspects of daily life.

[3017Metaphysician]

@3017Metaphysican
Thanks for your reply, in which you discuss the noumena in relation to the unknown. I do plan to read more in the direction of phenomenology because the question whether the subjective experience relates to the objective is important.


This is especially relevant to music and the other arts. I remember a friend once suggesting that the music of the rock band, Hawkwind, would definitely take listeners into specific dimensions of experience. I found that this worked for me but I like prog rock, but I am not convinced that all listeners would be taken into the same place objectively because music tastes are so individual and unique. But, I do think that music of our own choice is definitely a way of accessing experience beyond the mundane. Even though I am not a music performer I have always found music to be essential since I began going to record shops as a child, and I do still seek out new music releases on a regular basis and I do enjoy the shared experience of live music and music festivals.


I have read one book which discusses Shopenhauer's views on the metaphysics of music, which is 'Aesthetics and Subjectivity From Kant to Nietzsche,' by Andrew Bowie (2003, Manchester University Press). The author suggests that Schopenhauer's aesthetic theory involves 'an inverted Platonism', and that it 'attempts to demonstrate the metaphysical truth of art, especially music through an emphasis upon regarding ' "intuition" present in art as superior to concepts.'


I definitely believe that when we engage in the creative process we access a different kind of reality to the day to day one which we access. I know that if if I am involved in making art, or if I am writing, that I can almost become oblivious to my surroundings at times. I think that while it difficult to say that it is an objective reality as a category it is certainly a powerful aspect of our existence, which can transform our consciousness, even when we go back into the ordinary aspects of daily life.

Jack!

Your point is well taken concerning, what I'll call, these subjective experiences that one has in life. When you mentioned the simple act of writing, that also resonates with me and I'm sure resonates with others too... . Doing philosophy itself, leads one into so many areas of knowledge. The revelatory nature of that knowledge provides for a new sense of awareness that has transcendent qualities in and of itself.. Almost akin to an ineffable Maslonian peak experience. Those feelings are real and have meaning... .

From our sense experience, it's funny how the simple act of thinking, perceiving (music) and expressing, can bring so much joy and/or pain. Perhaps one trick is discovering which areas of perception we can control, within our own stream of consciousness.

[Sculptor1]

Glossolalia is widely recognised as a psychiatric phenomenon; a confused state which communicated nothing.
It seems to be where the conscious mind looses control over the speach centres of the brain and produces gibberish. And its closest analogue is the random thrashing out of limbs in victims of seizures and epiletsy.

[3017Metaphysician]

Glossolalia is widely recognised as a psychiatric phenomenon; a confused state which communicated nothing.
It seems to be where the conscious mind looses control over the speach centres of the brain and produces gibberish. And its closest analogue is the random thrashing out of limbs in victims of seizures and epiletsy.

Sculptor1!

Thanks for your contribution. You may be referring to another 'kissing cousin' of Tourette's syndrome wherein that particular phenomenon you mention comprises a mental disorder which involves repetitive movements or unwanted sounds (tics) that can't be controlled. For instance, you might see a person repeatedly blinking their eyes, shrugging shoulders or blurt out unusual sounds or offensive words.

Glossolalia goes further back in time. From the various accounts of antiquity, 5 BC-31AD, to all of the modern day phenomena. From Christianity, just a few sound bites , (pun intended ) from that period:

1. "...they will speak with new tongues" as a sign that would follow … .
2. "...every man heard them speak in his own language... ".
3. "...they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages...".
4. "...heard their own language being spoken... ".
5. "...them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God... ."

In any event, one of many questions relates to why this phenomena occurs. The disorder itself, may tell us something about a logically possible existence of some sort. In other words, consider the phenomenon of musical or mathematical genius. We know that neither of those confer any Darwinian biological survival advantages. Whether it is Einstein or Mozart, there remains a very small percentage of this power occurring. Existentially, Schopenhauur, in his book The World as Will and Representation, had an interesting supposition here: Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see. And from the book, The Mind of God/physicist Paul Davies:

"Might it not be the case that the reason for existence has no explanation in the usual sense? This does not mean that the universe is absurd or meaningless, only that an understanding of its existence and properties lies outside the usual categories of rational human thought".

[Sculptor1]

Glossolalia is widely recognised as a psychiatric phenomenon; a confused state which communicated nothing.
It seems to be where the conscious mind looses control over the speach centres of the brain and produces gibberish. And its closest analogue is the random thrashing out of limbs in victims of seizures and epiletsy.

Sculptor1!

Thanks for your contribution. You may be referring to another 'kissing cousin' of Tourette's syndrome wherein that particular phenomenon you mention comprises a mental disorder which involves repetitive movements or unwanted sounds (tics) that can't be controlled. For instance, you might see a person repeatedly blinking their eyes, shrugging shoulders or blurt out unusual sounds or offensive words.

Glossolalia goes further back in time. From the various accounts of antiquity, 5 BC-31AD, to all of the modern day phenomena. From Christianity, just a few sound bites , (pun intended ) from that

Yes, and so too does epilepsy go back.
Caesar was famous for his seizures. The fools back then also use to ascribe to it being "touched" the the divine.
They were wrong about that as they were about talking on tongues.

[JackDaydream]

@3017amen

Hello again!

I have read the reply to me and the discussion about the psychiatric condition of glossolalia. I think that I have witnessed the medical condition of the dual condition of dissociative states of consciousness in epilepsy and psychosis when I worked in mental health care. My own thinking about the psychiatric phenomenon, based on discussion with the people who experienced them is that the experience was extremely unpleasant and frightening. I don't know people who have experienced the religious speaking in tongues, but I am inclined to think that it may be of a blissful state of consciousness in most cases, but I think this is an area for speculation, based on my reading of mysticism.


On the subject of writing, I do think that it can also border onto a transformation of consciousness. In particular, I have felt that particularly when writing fiction. It may be that different kinds of writing can take us into different states of consciousness. With philosophy, I think that it can bring clarity of thought. I also feel that writing which is done and not shared is different to that which is done alone, left in notebooks. A few years ago, I followed a practice recommended by Julia Cameron, in 'The Artist's Way', which is writing 'morning pages'. This involves writing 3 pages of thoughts as soon as possible each day, and I did this for about 6 months. I did find that it brought me greater understanding of my own thought processes. However, I think writing which is written for an audience, or as dialogue, is so different from that which is a solitary activity. Having written forum dialogue discussion since last September, I do feel that I have gained far greater understanding of my own philosophy than when I was a student, and communicated thoughts with others in embodied discussion. I do believe that writing is a way of gaining greater access to thoughts than everyday conversation. I think that this may be because the mundane aspects of interaction are filtered out in written exchanges of ideas.

As far as the understanding of altered states of consciousness, including those related to the creative process, part of the problem which I am aware of is that while we may seek and experience peak states of consciousness, there is also the likelihood of experiencing the exact opposite at times. I believe that this is looked at within the transpersonal tradition of psychology and philosophy. One writer, Thomas More, speaks of the 'dark night of the soul.' This idea does go back to mystical traditions. I think that we have to be aware of how we are likely to experience diabolical aspects of consciousness as well as states of bliss. It may be that philosophy can aid the understanding of how to balance this, through giving us ways of integrating imagination, intuition and reason in interpreting our own states of consciousness.

[Terrapin Station]

My first question is "What is 'independent existence'?" I'm not sure what we'd even be considering there.

Re the Davies quote, all other merits or lack of the same aside, "an understanding of its existence and properties lie outside the usual categories of rational human thought" isn't necessarily saying that we'd be talking about something "transcendent" or anything like that. Rather we could simply be talking about an unusual category of rational human thought. So it would still be rational human thought, maybe, but just something aside from the usual categories of that, whatever those categories would supposedly be.

There are a bunch of other things to address, but I'm averse to tackling 50 issues at a time.

[3017Metaphysician]

@3017amen

Hello again!

I have read the reply to me and the discussion about the psychiatric condition of glossolalia. I think that I have witnessed the medical condition of the dual condition of dissociative states of consciousness in epilepsy and psychosis when I worked in mental health care. My own thinking about the psychiatric phenomenon, based on discussion with the people who experienced them is that the experience was extremely unpleasant and frightening. I don't know people who have experienced the religious speaking in tongues, but I am inclined to think that it may be of a blissful state of consciousness in most cases, but I think this is an area for speculation, based on my reading of mysticism.


On the subject of writing, I do think that it can also border onto a transformation of consciousness. In particular, I have felt that particularly when writing fiction. It may be that different kinds of writing can take us into different states of consciousness. With philosophy, I think that it can bring clarity of thought. I also feel that writing which is done and not shared is different to that which is done alone, left in notebooks. A few years ago, I followed a practice recommended by Julia Cameron, in 'The Artist's Way', which is writing 'morning pages'. This involves writing 3 pages of thoughts as soon as possible each day, and I did this for about 6 months. I did find that it brought me greater understanding of my own thought processes. However, I think writing which is written for an audience, or as dialogue, is so different from that which is a solitary activity. Having written forum dialogue discussion since last September, I do feel that I have gained far greater understanding of my own philosophy than when I was a student, and communicated thoughts with others in embodied discussion. I do believe that writing is a way of gaining greater access to thoughts than everyday conversation. I think that this may be because the mundane aspects of interaction are filtered out in written exchanges of ideas.

As far as the understanding of altered states of consciousness, including those related to the creative process, part of the problem which I am aware of is that while we may seek and experience peak states of consciousness, there is also the likelihood of experiencing the exact opposite at times. I believe that this is looked at within the transpersonal tradition of psychology and philosophy. One writer, Thomas More, speaks of the 'dark night of the soul.' This idea does go back to mystical traditions. I think that we have to be aware of how we are likely to experience diabolical aspects of consciousness as well as states of bliss. It may be that philosophy can aid the understanding of how to balance this, through giving us ways of integrating imagination, intuition and reason in interpreting our own states of consciousness.

Jack!

Your quote got my wheels spinning in different directions... . One thought, relative to your "diabolical aspects" of consciousness, reminds me of human pathologies that we find existing in everydayness. Some cognitive scientists even posit that being just ordinary, is a pathology:

"What we call normal in psychology is really a psychopathology of the average, so undramatic and so widely spread that we don't even notice it ordinarily."

The point is that being normal, being average, although normally perceived as okay, is pathology. Pathology can be defined as disease or sickness. The dictionary's definition of psychopathology is "The study of the origin, development, and manifestations of mental or behavioral disorders," or "the manifestation of a mental or behavioral disorder." Most people would be offended if someone were to say that they were average. Yet, by definition, most are. Average in psychological terms is a huge category, encompassing the majority of the population. Those that are not average are outliers. Outliers are the small percentage at either end of the bell curve. They are either well below average, or well above.

In that definition, some concepts (just a few) of pathology that are common, include things that people value on a consistent basis:

Dishonesty
Evil
Ugliness and vulgarity
Arbitrariness or forced choices
Deadness or the mechanization of life
Bland uniformity
Sloppiness, inconsistency, or accident
Incompleteness
Injustice and lawlessness
Unnecessary complexity
Environmental impoverishment
Strain
Grim, humorless, drudgery
Dependency
Senselessness

Jack, it seems as though one may consider what kind of meta-motivations that they may find virtuous in order to reach a different level of awareness. An awareness that could be transformational in some way.

[3017Metaphysician]

My first question is "What is 'independent existence'?" I'm not sure what we'd even be considering there.

Re the Davies quote, all other merits or lack of the same aside, "an understanding of its existence and properties lie outside the usual categories of rational human thought" isn't necessarily saying that we'd be talking about something "transcendent" or anything like that. Rather we could simply be talking about an unusual category of rational human thought. So it would still be rational human thought, maybe, but just something aside from the usual categories of that, whatever those categories would supposedly be.

There are a bunch of other things to address, but I'm averse to tackling 50 issues at a time.

TS!

Independent existence is a broad concept that captures theoretical physics, engineering, Platonism, mathematical truths, or anything that possibly exists theoretically prior to (the theory known as) the Big Bang. From the OP:

I was thinking about what transcends human thought, and how the notion of transcendence itself (Kant/Schop transcendental idealism) implies some ‘sense’ (pardon the pun) or conception of independent existence, much like how some physicist’s think about the laws of physics & nature (unchanging mathematical truths) existing independent of the human mind (?). I think Platonism also applies here... .

And also, much like the analogy of temporal time presumably starting at the big bang, and eternal time existing in eternity where at the speed of light time ceases to exist. And in theory a novel non-material consciousness has entered eternity as time is now infinite. (The past, present and future are all one at the speed of light.) Then, I thought about Schop’s the World as Will philosophy and how our conscious will (to live) itself, cannot be explained physically (versus Darwinian instinct).

With respect to consciousness and metaphysics, since we know that mathematical truths and/or the Will itself, confers no Darwinian biological survival advantages (or emergent instinct if you prefer), you can, perhaps, start there if you like.


On the second question or thought, Davies' was discussing whether causation and/or logical deduction itself is worthy of the 'holy grail' (e.g., the limitations of a priori logic is another intriguing topic if you would like to parse that), since generally Heisenberg, Gödel, Turing and other's proved that there is not a complete and consistent logical method or system of knowledge (axioms) that we have to go by. And so the notion of independent or transcendent realms of existing things become the opposite of this sense of temporal-ness or finitude. In the alternative, and similarly, if you wanted to theorize about what is beyond Kantian things-in-themselves, in terms of an independent realm (noumena) that gives reason to posit the ultimate causational superturtle, you are more than welcome to postulate.