Philosophy Discussion Forums

Interesting that this discussion of Marijuana should arise from the question "Does society need prisons?"

The extent to which societies require prisons for people who smoke weed represents the minimum amount by which prison capacity could be reduced. If you don't agree, please explain why locking people away because of marijuana is necessary.

Robert66 wrote: ↑April 4th, 2021, 8:03 pm Interesting that this discussion of Marijuana should arise from the question "Does society need prisons?"

The extent to which societies require prisons for people who smoke weed represents the minimum amount by which prison capacity could be reduced. If you don't agree, please explain why locking people away because of marijuana is necessary.

I agree brother. That's why legalization passed here and growing numbers of jurisdictions.

As for costs, one cost of "illegally" using marijuana is an internal tension created by feeling devious while doing something pleasurable.

And the market here in my state where weed is still illegal is warped, in favour of the dealers, who never offer a discount for loyalty, or have a "sale", or give any guarantee regarding quality, or provenance. Much is unknown about the business of the dealer. What happens to their profits? Are they funding real criminal activity? We can assume they are paying no tax. Of course the user can take what is offered or leave it, however invariably the choice is to take what is offered rather than go through the fraught process of finding a different and hopefully safe supply.

And the stuff ain't cheap - $100 AUD (~ $76 USD) per 7 grams. If the legal weed is actually more expensive, as stated in this discussion, then I would say some very greedy profit-making is occurring somewhere in the supply chain. However I would gladly pay a premium for weed which came with a) no risk of being fined or imprisoned, and b) quality control including information about provenance, strength etc.

Politicians who hold the line against legalising weed should be viewed with suspicion: what good reason do they have for denying a wealth redistribution away from dealers and into tax revenue?

Online sources note $78 per 1/4 oz legal vs $50 illegal, here.

This supports legalization decreasing the price of illegal weed and that legal is more expensive than illegal.

Out of curiosity: Are there any people here who's views are sufficiently Libertarian that they would oppose the criminalisation of any substance whose purpose is recreational use, regardless of the dangers that it poses to the user?

In other words I'm interested in broadening the discussion beyond marijuana to any drug, either real or potential, which could be used recreationally. The Libertarian view, as I understand it, is that individuals should be entirely free to do what they want to their own bodies. So suppose, for the sake of argument, that there were a drug, or substance, that created extreme euphoria, was extremely and immediately addictive and was certain to lead to death within a short time. Does anybody think that personal use and sale of such a drug should be entirely unrestricted by law?

Robert66 wrote: ↑April 5th, 2021, 3:04 pm As for costs, one cost of "illegally" using marijuana is an internal tension created by feeling devious while doing something pleasurable.

And the market here in my state where weed is still illegal is warped, in favour of the dealers, who never offer a discount for loyalty, or have a "sale", or give any guarantee regarding quality, or provenance. Much is unknown about the business of the dealer. What happens to their profits? Are they funding real criminal activity? We can assume they are paying no tax. Of course the user can take what is offered or leave it, however invariably the choice is to take what is offered rather than go through the fraught process of finding a different and hopefully safe supply.

And the stuff ain't cheap - $100 AUD (~ $76 USD) per 7 grams.

7g of what, exactly?

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 5th, 2021, 4:04 pm Online sources note $78 per 1/4 oz legal vs $50 illegal, here.

This supports legalization decreasing the price of illegal weed and that legal is more expensive than illegal.

Is this just weed?

https://amsterdamhangout.com/how-much-d ... amsterdam/

Great availability and low prices.
You will find weed available from €5 per gram, and this weed will still be pretty strong. The best high-quality prize winning weed costs €15 per gram and in some places, you can find prestige weed at as much as €40 per gram. If you fancy pre-rolled joints, they start at €3.50 and top out at €5. You can also purchase hash from €4 to €35.

Steve3007 wrote: ↑April 6th, 2021, 6:23 am Out of curiosity: Are there any people here who's views are sufficiently Libertarian that they would oppose the criminalisation of any substance whose purpose is recreational use, regardless of the dangers that it poses to the user?

In other words I'm interested in broadening the discussion beyond marijuana to any drug, either real or potential, which could be used recreationally. The Libertarian view, as I understand it, is that individuals should be entirely free to do what they want to their own bodies. So suppose, for the sake of argument, that there were a drug, or substance, that created extreme euphoria, was extremely and immediately addictive and was certain to lead to death within a short time. Does anybody think that personal use and sale of such a drug should be entirely unrestricted by law?

I would be in favour of complete decriminalisation for all substances, with the possible exception for heroin.
People of character and intelligence that I have known, who have sampled it to their determinent described the experience as far too nice, and far too addictive. For this reason, though I have sampled many recreational drugs I have not tried Heroin.
I would only maintain criminalisation of supply.

Portugal's drug problems have plummeted since they decriminalised drugs. It has led to more money being available to rehab centres; money saved from the penal system
Drug use and assocaited crime is down as a result.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 6th, 2021, 9:06 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 5th, 2021, 4:04 pm Online sources note $78 per 1/4 oz legal vs $50 illegal, here.

This supports legalization decreasing the price of illegal weed and that legal is more expensive than illegal.

Is this just weed?

https://amsterdamhangout.com/how-much-d ... amsterdam/

Great availability and low prices.
You will find weed available from €5 per gram, and this weed will still be pretty strong. The best high-quality prize winning weed costs €15 per gram and in some places, you can find prestige weed at as much as €40 per gram. If you fancy pre-rolled joints, they start at €3.50 and top out at €5. You can also purchase hash from €4 to €35.

This is described online as "high" grade, among low, medium and high. Though to be accurate, it is really the price of weed plus tariff.

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 6th, 2021, 10:48 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 6th, 2021, 9:06 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 5th, 2021, 4:04 pm Online sources note $78 per 1/4 oz legal vs $50 illegal, here.

This supports legalization decreasing the price of illegal weed and that legal is more expensive than illegal.

Is this just weed?

https://amsterdamhangout.com/how-much-d ... amsterdam/

Great availability and low prices.
You will find weed available from €5 per gram, and this weed will still be pretty strong. The best high-quality prize winning weed costs €15 per gram and in some places, you can find prestige weed at as much as €40 per gram. If you fancy pre-rolled joints, they start at €3.50 and top out at €5. You can also purchase hash from €4 to €35.

This is described online as "high" grade, among low, medium and high. Though to be accurate, it is really the price of weed plus tariff.

But only "weed" rather than hash?

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 6th, 2021, 12:32 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 6th, 2021, 10:48 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 6th, 2021, 9:06 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 5th, 2021, 4:04 pm Online sources note $78 per 1/4 oz legal vs $50 illegal, here.

This supports legalization decreasing the price of illegal weed and that legal is more expensive than illegal.

Is this just weed?

https://amsterdamhangout.com/how-much-d ... amsterdam/

Great availability and low prices.
You will find weed available from €5 per gram, and this weed will still be pretty strong. The best high-quality prize winning weed costs €15 per gram and in some places, you can find prestige weed at as much as €40 per gram. If you fancy pre-rolled joints, they start at €3.50 and top out at €5. You can also purchase hash from €4 to €35.

This is described online as "high" grade, among low, medium and high. Though to be accurate, it is really the price of weed plus tariff.

But only "weed" rather than hash?

Correct, as stated.

So we can safely conclude that legal pot is slightly cheaper than when it was illegal. But that illegal pot in a legal system is cheaper than legal pot.
Growing your own has always been the best and cheapest strategy.

You know what you are smoking, and can control ferilizer, and any pest control you need.

Sculptor1 wrote:I would be in favour of complete decriminalisation for all substances, with the possible exception for heroin.
People of character and intelligence that I have known, who have sampled it to their determinent described the experience as far too nice, and far too addictive. For this reason, though I have sampled many recreational drugs I have not tried Heroin.
I would only maintain criminalisation of supply.

OK, fair enough. So I guess your answer to my question is that you believe in quite minimal legal restrictions but not no legal restrictions. There is at least one drug (heroin) which you believe should be subject to some restrictions, so my hypothetical ultra-dangerous, ultra-addictive drug would presumably also be something you'd want to be restricted if it existed.

I suspect there are some ultra-Libertarian people who would disagree and who would not want there to be any restrictions of any kind on anything that is used on oneself. Of the people who post (or have recently posted) here I'd guess that GE Morton and Terrapin Station would take that view.

My own experiences are restricted to cannabis, alcohol, tobacco and caffeine. Probably not surprisingly, I found tobacco the most addictive. I think for most of the 20-odd years that I spent as a smoker I was trying to quit! Although maybe alcohol has proved the most addictive in the long run because I haven't quit that yet and don't intend to. I don't remember finding cannabis addictive at all, but I haven't smoked it for a very long time.

LuckyR wrote: ↑April 5th, 2021, 4:04 pm Online sources note $78 per 1/4 oz legal vs $50 illegal, here.

This supports legalization decreasing the price of illegal weed and that legal is more expensive than illegal.

Then I think someone is getting greedy. The legal stuff is, er, legal, so the consumer has no need to pay the vendor for taking the risk of arrest and punishment. Perhaps your country's devotion to the Church of the Dollar is having too heavy an influence? Marijuana is an easy plant to grow, and should probably be cheaper than, say, salad vegetables...? What does lettuce cost, per gram?

Steve3007 wrote: ↑April 7th, 2021, 6:54 am

Sculptor1 wrote:I would be in favour of complete decriminalisation for all substances, with the possible exception for heroin.
People of character and intelligence that I have known, who have sampled it to their determinent described the experience as far too nice, and far too addictive. For this reason, though I have sampled many recreational drugs I have not tried Heroin.
I would only maintain criminalisation of supply.

OK, fair enough. So I guess your answer to my question is that you believe in quite minimal legal restrictions but not no legal restrictions. There is at least one drug (heroin) which you believe should be subject to some restrictions, so my hypothetical ultra-dangerous, ultra-addictive drug would presumably also be something you'd want to be restricted if it existed.

I suspect there are some ultra-Libertarian people who would disagree and who would not want there to be any restrictions of any kind on anything that is used on oneself. Of the people who post (or have recently posted) here I'd guess that GE Morton and Terrapin Station would take that view.

My own experiences are restricted to cannabis, alcohol, tobacco and caffeine. Probably not surprisingly, I found tobacco the most addictive. I think for most of the 20-odd years that I spent as a smoker I was trying to quit! Although maybe alcohol has proved the most addictive in the long run because I haven't quit that yet and don't intend to. I don't remember finding cannabis addictive at all, but I haven't smoked it for a very long time.

I think heroin is not the baddest of the bad any more. There is Fentanyl, for example, which we can view as super-stregth heroin, being another opiate derivative. And crystal meth, glue-sniffing, and the like, does such damage to the body that it might even be considered worse?

I think all substances ahould be legal, as we are discussing it here, and a portion of the profits made by government in taxes should be directed to drugs education, so that people know what they're taking, and its potential effects. This does seem to have worked quite well in the few countries that have tried it.