Philosophy Discussion Forums

Nameless,
OK, it seems now to me you are saying you are not bothered by insane people and their insane acts. Consistent.
It seems you are not using 'fruits' in the sense of causes. It had seemed to me you were slipping in causes, because when people referred to, for example, the fruits of ones actions, it is a metaphor for the effects of one's actions. IOW they are caused by your actions or insanity, etc. But you do not mean that, you are using 'fruits' here in a unconventional way, which is fine, since I know that now.
The fruits of insanity, followed by torture, etc. Does not mean insanity caused those things. Fine, consistent.
And when you use charged words like insanity, in relation to something, you are not judging, just noting. Fine, consistent.
When you say.....

Such sanity is a rare Light in the darkness of our insanity (which is just getting worse, or are you not keeping up with the news/history?).

You are not concerned about this trend, since there is no time and things aren't really getting worse, since all is present and unchanging. No real process, no deterioration.
And when you predict that one day punishment will no longer be used you are not talking about the future you are not concerned about when this will happen, since in fact it has happened. Everything is fine. There is no problem with the torturers and punishes, since they are part of this one.
And when you say I may heal or not, you know that I am just another perfect times of the timeless one. My healing would be perfect, my not healing would be perfect.
So right now in the timeless oneness things are getting worse in relation to the ideas around punishment and insanity. But in the future they will get better.

I am not for torture.

I do believe in natural consequences, which some will conceive of as punishment. I don't need to make the other person suffer. But I do sometimes stop them from doing something. This may be perceived of as punishment. But my reactions have all already happened and are just fine. And my belief does not lead to events. There is only one event and it already is. Nothing to complain about. No future to take care of.

Just calling an appearance of a Virtue when Love is present is an observation, not a judgment, as is the appearance of unpleasant stuff when Love is not around.

'when love is not around' ?

You must look deeper, Nameless, that is never the case. Love is always here.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: ↑April 13th, 2018, 8:05 am So right now in the timeless oneness things are getting worse in relation to the ideas around punishment and insanity. But in the future they will get better.

... in the 'timeless Oneness' in which the appearance of time arises, things appear to be 'getting worse'.
But, yes, that appearance will appear to predate the presence of other moments (the 'future'), which are also Here! Now!
'Getting worse' is not a Knowledge/experience (of something 'out there'), it is an exercise in (Knowledge of thought/memory/ego) memory.

I am not for torture.

If there is no free-will/choice, then 'punishment' (to any degree) = torture, no?
Putting the child in a 'time out', or hitting him, in an attempt to alter behavior has always been a losing strategy.
(See/read; 'A Clockwork Orange' by Anthony Burgess)

I do believe in natural consequences,

Of course, 'effects'.

which some will conceive of as punishment.

Yes, there are those who conceive of anything that they find unpleasant to be a 'punishment'.

I don't need to make the other person suffer. But I do sometimes stop them from doing something.

By which they will suffer, and think that you are the cause.
They got what they needed as did you.
Once again, Reality simply manifested to awareness.
You do as you must, as does he.
Perhaps complimentary features...

This may be perceived of as punishment. But my reactions have all already happened and are just fine.

Perhaps, according to you.
All 'meaning' exists in the thoughts/ego of the beholder.
Your actions may not be 'just fine' according to your 'victim' (easy, just used that word for dramatic effect, sort of like your sarcasm...)

And my belief does not lead to events. There is only one event and it already is. Nothing to complain about. No future to take care of.

You cannot have it both ways, your experience is your experience, in which cause and effect, free-will/choice... exist as Reality.
As that belief is a feature of who and what you, ultimately, are, you behave accordingly; punishing others, for instance.
As we all get exactly what we need, at the moment, you needed to punish, he needed to be punished.
One not believing in such things as choice and causality will not punish others.
These are the ones that might find ways to heal, rather.
With all Perspectives, the Picture is Complete;

"The complete Universe (Reality/Truth/God/'Self!'/Tao/Brahman... or any feature herein...) can be completely defined/described as the synchronous sum-total of all Perspectives!"
ALL INCLUSIVE!!!
(Including all that is (locally) considered 'false'!)

"Every kind of partial and transitory disequilibrium must perforce contribute towards the great equilibrium of the whole.." - Rene' Guenon

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 13th, 2018, 8:00 pm
... in the 'timeless Oneness' in which the appearance of time arises, things appear to be 'getting worse'.
But, yes, that appearance will appear to predate the presence of other moments (the 'future'), which are also Here! Now!
'Getting worse' is not a Knowledge/experience (of something 'out there'), it is an exercise in (Knowledge of thought/memory/ego) memory.

So things appear to be getting worse to you and they appear to you also that in the future those things, like punishment, will disappear. But this is not how it appears to. Perhaps it did once appear to you these ways, in timebound narrative. You see the oneness, it no longer like this. See what I am saying. If you say 'it appears to be getting worse' you do not mean, to you, you mean to people who do not see the oneness. But for many of those people it does not appear to be getting worse. Nor does it appear to many that it will get better in the future and there will be no punishment.

And I am not being sarcastic. I am exploring something.

If there is no free-will/choice, then 'punishment' (to any degree) = torture, no?
Putting the child in a 'time out', or hitting him, in an attempt to alter behavior has always been a losing strategy.
(See/read; 'A Clockwork Orange' by Anthony Burgess)

I am not for punishment. Some people just write their beliefs. Some people only have beliefs. This is not the only way communication is happening in the oneness.

I do believe in natural consequences,

Of course, 'effects'.

I suppose I should have said, the appearance of natural consequences. In the appearance of time, things appear to follow one another. In that appearance it cannot help but appear that one thing follows another. Someone throws a punch at me and does not get included in my next dinner gathering. An appearance of causally connected events - that really happened simultaneously. They may view it as punishment, sure.

which some will conceive of as punishment.

Yes, there are those who conceive of anything that they find unpleasant to be a 'punishment'.

which is necessarily a good thing once one accepts the whole.

I don't need to make the other person suffer. But I do sometimes stop them from doing something.

By which they will suffer, and think that you are the cause.
They got what they needed as did you.
Once again, Reality simply manifested to awareness.
You do as you must, as does he.
Perhaps complimentary features...

Precisely. There is no need for this to change, or anything else for that matter.

This may be perceived of as punishment. But my reactions have all already happened and are just fine.

Perhaps, according to you.

and you.

All 'meaning' exists in the thoughts/ego of the beholder.
Your actions may not be 'just fine' according to your 'victim'

Which is also fine.

And my belief does not lead to events. There is only one event and it already is. Nothing to complain about. No future to take care of.

You cannot have it both ways, your experience is your experience, in which cause and effect, free-will/choice... exist as Reality.
As that belief is a feature of who and what you, ultimately, are, you behave accordingly; punishing others, for instance.

I have it one way.

As we all get exactly what we need, at the moment, you needed to punish, he needed to be punished.
One not believing in such things as choice and causality will not punish others.
These are the ones that might find ways to heal, rather.

They are already healed. and there is no might, there is only what is. Their might be the appearance of might when the picture is not complete.

"The complete Universe (Reality/Truth/God/'Self!'/Tao/Brahman... or any feature herein...) can be completely defined/described as the synchronous sum-total of all Perspectives!"
ALL INCLUSIVE!!!
(Including all that is (locally) considered 'false'!)

Right.

"Every kind of partial and transitory disequilibrium must perforce contribute towards the great equilibrium of the whole.." - Rene' Guenon

Nothing to complain about. Nothing better or less than it should be. Nothing wrong. Nothing to do. Nothing to heal, since it is all healed in its completeness.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: ↑April 14th, 2018, 1:07 am

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 13th, 2018, 8:00 pm
... in the 'timeless Oneness' in which the appearance of time arises, things appear to be 'getting worse'.
But, yes, that appearance will appear to predate the presence of other moments (the 'future'), which are also Here! Now!
'Getting worse' is not a Knowledge/experience (of something 'out there'), it is an exercise in (Knowledge of thought/memory/ego) memory.

So things appear to be getting worse to you and they appear to you also that in the future those things, like punishment, will disappear. But this is not how it appears to. Perhaps it did once appear to you these ways, in timebound narrative. You see the oneness, it no longer like this. See what I am saying.

Yes, I think that I see what you are saying.
To speak is to 'lie'. One must 'descend the mountain' to even speak!
As one cannot speak/think Holistically to reflect the Holistic nature of Reality, but in a lineo-temporal context, one needs remember that "the pointing finger is not the moon".
And it is difficult enough using words for Perspectives unusual, and having to define, re-define terms used. It is a juggling act. Yes, it appears (at this moment, from this Perspective) to be a juggling act! *__-

"If you remain at the top, you will see no difference. You can preach dharma only when you come down. If you remain at the top and see, everything will appear as one. That One always remains pure. Nothing can pollute it."

If you say 'it appears to be getting worse' you do not mean, to you, you mean to people who do not see the oneness.

Yes. But I Am (We Are) also Ego, I also perceive the apparent lineo-temporal context (mirage/dream).
One speaks to be heard and, perhaps, understood, no?
Tune the narrative to the audience's experience...

But for many of those people it does not appear to be getting worse.

Define 'many'.
To the vast majority who indulge in media entertainment, 'news', things (on a world scale) appear to be.. 'getting worse'.
Of course, there are those of opposite Perspectives.

Nor does it appear to many that it will get better in the future and there will be no punishment.

Nor did it appear to many that the earth is a spheroid.
From a lineo-temporal context, ego, they will have to... 'wait'.. to Know/experience those 'future' moments.
From a Holistic context, 'access to Consciousness' is more... 'local' for some Perspectives, more distant for others.
We who can perceive these (already existent 'future') moments already Know.

The Illusion of Time
Rodger Stevens

Picture yourself standing on the curb, watching the traffic go by. The traffic which is presently before you is called the present . . . you can smell it, touch it, see it, hear it, and so on. You can see about a block in each direction, up and down the street. This narrow slice is called the present. The past is the traffic which has already disappeared down the street , and the traffic which has yet to appear up the street we'll call the future (to avoid needless confusion, we'll call it a one-way street, even though what we call time might run in both directions, and even at right angles). Compared to the past traffic (which has been going past for millennia) and the future traffic (likewise), our block-wide present doesn't look like much. Suppose further that as you are standing there, you hear a voice which says, "In about three minutes a green truck will come by." You look up the street, you don't see anything, but sure enough, in three or four minutes a green truck comes by. Amazing! You hear the voice again, and again you hear a prediction. You might freak out (if you are a fundamentalist), you might think it is magic, you might even set yourself up as a trance medium if you can get the voice to cooperate. In fact, though, it is only someone leaning out of a fourth story window over your head. From his position up there, your cosmic traffic announcer is looking at a present which is much wider than yours . . . from his higher perspective, his present includes part of what you call the past and the future; he is reading your future from his present.

The higher up the building you go, the more the past and future resolve themselves into the present. Going higher up in the building is raising your consciousness, which is the true meaning and intent of getting high. From the top of the building, you have raised your consciousness to the point where the so-called future and the so-called past have ceased to exist, and there is only the present. There never was anything but the infinite present, but from your incredibly limited perspective down on the street corner, you couldn't see much of it, so there appeared to be a past and a future.

And I am not being sarcastic. I am exploring something.

Alrighty, I'll accept that. *__-

Yes, there are those who conceive of anything that they find unpleasant to be a 'punishment'.

which is necessarily a good thing once one accepts the whole.

Once one "accepts the whole", fully integrates, becomes unconditional Love... judgment, good vs evil vanish. What is, is...

Precisely. There is no need for this to change, or anything else for that matter.

As if Thing can 'change'!

...and there is no might, there is only what is. Their might be the appearance of might when the picture is not complete.

No single Perspective can ever perceive the 'complete picture', thus...

"Every kind of partial and transitory disequilibrium must perforce contribute towards the great equilibrium of the whole.." - Rene' Guenon

Nothing to complain about. Nothing better or less than it should be. Nothing wrong. Nothing to do. Nothing to heal, since it is all healed in its completeness.

Ah, a view from the 'top'!
Mark that path that others may follow! *__-
Yes, 'path' and 'follow' and 'others' are all relics of the duality of thought/ego, the descent from the 'top'.

(There can be no 'no-thing' to do anything!)

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 14th, 2018, 6:48 pm

But for many of those people it does not appear to be getting worse.

Define 'many'.
To the vast majority who indulge in media entertainment, 'news', things (on a world scale) appear to be.. 'getting worse'.
Of course, there are those of opposite Perspectives.

Well, what I see is most are fascinated by their devices and all the things they can but and what they will be able to buy, just around the corner. They follow Richard Dawkins and his statistics in thinking it was worse before. Progress, and all that. I think the majority is mostly distracted and engrossed in entertainment and various addictions. Of those looking around and evaluating (not saying they are correct) I would say more see the future as better than the past) but I can't prove that, nor am I that attached to it, but it has been my experience.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: ↑April 13th, 2018, 8:05 am Nameless,
OK, it seems now to me you are saying you are not bothered by insane people and their insane acts. Consistent.

Just a PS;
'Bothered' relates to perceived 'feelings'.
We all perceive feelings, we do not all 'believe' them.
'Feelings' are not 'caused' by circumstances.
But we feel, and deeply!
I don't see 'feelings' as bothersome; part of being human...

'Bothersome things/people', 'out there', are only that with which we have yet to integrate.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2018, 4:24 pm

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 14th, 2018, 6:48 pm

Define 'many'.
To the vast majority who indulge in media entertainment, 'news', things (on a world scale) appear to be.. 'getting worse'.
Of course, there are those of opposite Perspectives.

Well, what I see is most are fascinated by their devices and all the things they can but and what they will be able to buy, just around the corner.

Yes, the hell of consumerism/capitalism and it's destructive forces gains speed as it plummets downhill...
In the meantime, there are still many 'believers' who are not lucid in 'this dream'!
They will become 'lucid', or die off (genetically, metaphorically and literally)

They follow Richard Dawkins and his statistics in thinking it was worse before. Progress, and all that.

Dawkins is an entertainer, he is not a philosopher!
What he says means nothing to me, critical examination leaves him in the entertainer category.
I've found better (more credible) entertainers.

I think the majority is mostly distracted and engrossed in entertainment and various addictions.

A reasonable statement, for Americans, perhaps, or UK, for instance, but there is much of the world attempting to feed their families, to not get bombed/shot/kidnapped... and have no other need, or 'free time' for such 'entertainment and addictions'.
Of what use are those so engrossed?
Do we need them in tomorrowland?

Of those looking around and evaluating (not saying they are correct) I would say more see the future as better than the past) but I can't prove that, nor am I that attached to it, but it has been my experience.

Again, it depends on Perspective.
A couple centuries and 'We' all live in Paradise!
I guess that can be considered a 'better future', but there will be the hell of the dying throes of an insane species before then.

Like fire being the best cleanser, the gene-pool must be so cleansed before all remaining can inhabit Nirvana!

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 15th, 2018, 8:40 pm

They follow Richard Dawkins and his statistics in thinking it was worse before. Progress, and all that.

Dawkins is an entertainer, he is not a philosopher!
What he says means nothing to me, critical examination leaves him in the entertainer category.
I've found better (more credible) entertainers.

But what he says, and the meme itself coming from a variety of sources has convinced many and is held by many.

A reasonable statement, for Americans, perhaps, or UK, for instance, but there is much of the world attempting to feed their families, to not get bombed/shot/kidnapped... and have no other need, or 'free time' for such 'entertainment and addictions'.

Good point. But a large number of these are religious believers in afterlife scenarios. IOW even if they think there is a downtrend - where the 'decadence' for example is mentioned - they believe that their individual futures are fine and that everything is part of Gods plan. Even Buddhists and Taoists and Hindushave this latter outlook, sometimes in terms of cycles.

Again, it depends on Perspective.
A couple centuries and 'We' all live in Paradise!
I guess that can be considered a 'better future', but there will be the hell of the dying throes of an insane species before then.

Like fire being the best cleanser, the gene-pool must be so cleansed before all remaining can inhabit Nirvana!

I suppose in a sense I agree, though I'm not interested in Nirvana.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: ↑April 16th, 2018, 5:38 am

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 15th, 2018, 8:40 pm
Dawkins is an entertainer, he is not a philosopher!
What he says means nothing to me, critical examination leaves him in the entertainer category.
I've found better (more credible) entertainers.

But what he says, and the meme itself coming from a variety of sources has convinced many and is held by many.

A) There are many strains of 'belief infection' that are "held by many".
B) Of course there are those Perspectives that imagine that things are always getting better, people with medical needs, for instance.
Someone wearing a pacemaker is certainly living in 'better (medical) times', until he is killed on the street for his Nikes!
He died thinking that times were just getting 'better'...
C) There is the psychological need, in most, for 'hope', based on the 'belief' that 'things will get better'. An emotional need fulfilled, not rational logical thought.

Hypothesis; If many didn't/couldn't believe that 'things will get better' IN THEIR LIFETIME, FOR THEM, remove all 'hope' nd they become depressed, despairing, suicidal, insane...

A reasonable statement, for Americans, perhaps, or UK, for instance, but there is much of the world attempting to feed their families, to not get bombed/shot/kidnapped... and have no other need, or 'free time' for such 'entertainment and addictions'.

Good point. But a large number of these are religious believers in afterlife scenarios. IOW even if they think there is a downtrend - where the 'decadence' for example is mentioned - they believe that their individual futures are fine and that everything is part of Gods plan. Even Buddhists and Taoists and Hindushave this latter outlook, sometimes in terms of cycles.

Yeah, that reflects what I said about 'hope' (and belief) and it being a psycho-emotional need...
And Taoism does not get into 'hope', in an 'afterlife' or otherwise.
Tao is Now! *__-

Again, it depends on Perspective.
A couple centuries and 'We' all live in Paradise!
I guess that can be considered a 'better future', but there will be the hell of the dying throes of an insane species before then.

Like fire being the best cleanser, the gene-pool must be so cleansed before all remaining can inhabit Nirvana!

I suppose in a sense I agree, though I'm not interested in Nirvana.

Perhaps you don't quite understand;
Nirvana = Heaven = Enlightenment/unconditional Love... Here! Now! Tao!
Are you really not interested? *__-

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 16th, 2018, 9:32 am A) There are many strains of 'belief infection' that are "held by many".

Sure.

B) Of course there are those Perspectives that imagine that things are always getting better, people with medical needs, for instance.
Someone wearing a pacemaker is certainly living in 'better (medical) times', until he is killed on the street for his Nikes!
He died thinking that times were just getting 'better'...

Well, sure, though Dawkins-types will look at statistics and find perhaps that there were overall more deaths by strangers for belongings 'then' while medical treatments were not as good.

C) There is the psychological need, in most, for 'hope', based on the 'belief' that 'things will get better'. An emotional need fulfilled, not rational logical thought.

SURE.

Hypothesis; If many didn't/couldn't believe that 'things will get better' IN THEIR LIFETIME, FOR THEM, remove all 'hope' nd they become depressed, despairing, suicidal, insane...

Sure.

Yeah, that reflects what I said about 'hope' (and belief) and it being a psycho-emotional need...
And Taoism does not get into 'hope', in an 'afterlife' or otherwise.
Tao is Now! *__-

Sure, but it is saying there is no real problem. There are merely apparant shifts in the one. The religion is still used to soothe. And I am sure many are soothed by the idea that they are eternal, even if they are not necessarily getting that they are more like 'they,.

Perhaps you don't quite understand;
Nirvana = Heaven = Enlightenment/unconditional Love... Here! Now! Tao!
Are you really not interested? *__-

Most models of Nirvana judge certain portions of the self, like emotions, which, for example, they want you do disidentify with. It is not a solution, for me, nor are the practices most masters who talk about Nirvana prescribe.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: ↑April 19th, 2018, 3:32 am

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 16th, 2018, 9:32 am Yeah, that reflects what I said about 'hope' (and belief) and it being a psycho-emotional need...
And Taoism does not get into 'hope', in an 'afterlife' or otherwise.
Tao is Now! *__-

Sure, but it is saying there is no real problem.

In a way. Tao says that the only difference between a 'problem' and a 'solution' is Perspective.
Both are the Same One Reality/Event!
That 'problems' only exist in/as 'thought/ego', and come and pass quite naturally. (Attempted) Attachment and aversion (to the passing) is suffering!

Perhaps you don't quite understand;
Nirvana = Heaven = Enlightenment/unconditional Love... Here! Now! Tao!
Are you really not interested? *__-

Most models of Nirvana judge certain portions of the self, like emotions, which, for example, they want you do disidentify with.

Rather than speaking of models of that which cannot be modeled, I speak from experience/Knowledge.
In the mystical state, there can be no 'discrimination', no 'judgment', literally!
The state of Enlightenment is nondifferent than unconditional (transcendental) Love!
This state transcends the conditional perceptions of thought/ego/duality leaving Us as ALL inclusive, even of the 'nasty'. All is Loved, all is assimilated in (health) unconditional Love!
There is not anything (to avoid or chase) but the Beloved!

It is not a solution, for me, nor are the practices most masters who talk about Nirvana prescribe.

I hear you.
Even to speak is to lie!
Even the words of 'masters' and 'gurus', etc... are duality. All can always be picked to death by their words.
Some are interested in picking apart words and others are interested in the 'goal'.
The Enlightened need no 'words' to be recognized as such;

True, unconditional Love (Enlightenment) is ALWAYS Known by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (Charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi

tat tvam asi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi)

Sincere seekers are willing to do whatever is necessary, not to leave any rock unturned, in their quests.
Many get their toes wet in less than perfect water (religion, for instance), but are inexorably led to finer and purer by their sincerity and diligence!

The (prescribed) practice of Zen (thoughtless) meditation is one of the most effective tools that I Know!
One can follow ancient prescribed methods, or modify for the times. Very flexible...

Otherwise, all one needs to do to determine one's 'path' is to glance beneath their feet once in awhile! *__-

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 19th, 2018, 8:02 pm Attachment and aversion (to the passing) is suffering!

Which is why, when is close to Taoists and Buddhists, for that matter, you can feel their judgments of emotions and desires. What is outside they have accepted - advanced practitioners at least but what is inside is still judged as not OK or potentially not that. They do not say this. What is inside that is problematic can arise and pass and they disidentify in this way with what is inside them. But you can feel the vibe of judgment when they meet others more accepting of the limbic brain, so to speak.

Rather than speaking of models of that which cannot be modeled, I speak from experience/Knowledge.

Me. too.

In the mystical state, there can be no 'discrimination', no 'judgment', literally!
The state of Enlightenment is nondifferent than unconditional (transcendental) Love!
This state transcends the conditional perceptions of thought/ego/duality leaving Us as ALL inclusive, even of the 'nasty'. All is Loved, all is assimilated in (health) unconditional Love!
There is not anything (to avoid or chase) but the Beloved!

Oh, I am sure there are states where this kind of enlightenment, often sitting or lying down in isolation or with others who have similar judgments of emotions and desires, it seems like there is full acceptance. But at tea with one, or walking in a garden with one, or [fill in the blank] the judgments are in the air. What has been denied out, disconnected from by one part of the self successfully, is suddenly nearby and ookie.

True, unconditional Love (Enlightenment) is ALWAYS Known by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (Charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

More things that arise and disappear, just like the emotions and states the Taoists judge negatively.

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi

And what gets batched as barriers does not get love.