Philosophy Discussion Forums

Greta wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 6:28 pm I don't see anything in Lucky's post that would contradict the idea that we are part of the Earth.

That really wasn't the issue I was trying to address but it was an attempt to establish what man is. That is a starting point that man is of the earth and bound to the earth. I believe that truth self evident no? Ok.. so maybe even I can contradict my own statement.. maybe man is the microcosm of the universe and our origins actually were before earth or maybe man is just a phantom of the imagination, maybe that's how it'll end up (because man has 10 times more bacterial cells in his body and more than 1000 time more expressive bacterial DNA I've heard it said man is bacteria having a human experience)

Greta wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 6:28 pm I do think we need to respect the fact that each generation is keen to pass on their learning to the next, and the Bible, along with numerous other works, is an attempt to pass on information to save the next generation from copying the previous one's mistakes. To that end, we also need to respect the many works produced since with the benefit of more societal experience and learning. The Bible is just one source of information, with perspectives of people in the Middle East, how they lived at that time and what they did (often presented in metaphorical form, especially the OT, which is dated enough to be more of a historical curio than a useful guide for modern humans).

This is your assumption, mine differs in that I find the Bible more than just a historical curio but what exactly it is is part of the discussion. The Bible begins with an account of creation and I believe that to be a very powerful statement.

Greta wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 6:28 pm There is no reason to believe that the Middle Eastern mythology was any more tuned into reality than the perspectives stemming from African and islander animism and paganism, the Chinese Tao, Japanese Shinto, the Aboriginal and native Americans' relationship with the Earth. Each group's beliefs were initially shaped by their natural and cultural environments.

I don't that that's correct though I do believe there are truths found throughout man's attempts but none as pertinent to our modern thought as the influence we've been given through the Bible. I'm not trying to defend the Bible or it's teachings but I believe simply stating what I see as fact.

Apparently my prior post for some reason didn't make it through the moderators scrutiny so I'll try again.

Greta wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 6:28 pm I don't see anything in Lucky's post that would contradict the idea that we are part of the Earth.

Here's the issue I'm facing and that is expressed as "modern science and philosophical thought is more advanced in construct than ancient science and philosophical thought." I'm not saying there isn't a reason for us to be present in today's world benefiting from technology. What I am saying and trying to establish first is man is integral with the earth. We are depend upon it in all sense. As for the issue of modern science and philosophical thought being somehow more advanced. I can only imagine this notion arises out of the concept of evolution of species where earlier forms of live were less complete or structured in their makeup and so that train of thought leads us to the notion man has passed through time x number of years therefore he's more advanced? Here's where our current train of thought has led us, 50% of all americans have one form or another of a chronic degenerative disease, we're polluting our waters and we lose topsoil at alarming rates and this is not to mention the very probably effects we're having on global environmental conditions. Why is this happening? We have taken man out of context in all our scientific equations. Man now exists as the observer and not as an active participant in his environment and this is direct result of the posture modern science has taken.

Greta wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 6:28 pm I do think we need to respect the fact that each generation is keen to pass on their learning to the next, and the Bible, along with numerous other works, is an attempt to pass on information to save the next generation from copying the previous one's mistakes. To that end, we also need to respect the many works produced since with the benefit of more societal experience and learning. The Bible is just one source of information, with perspectives of people in the Middle East, how they lived at that time and what they did (often presented in metaphorical form, especially the OT, which is dated enough to be more of a historical curio than a useful guide for modern humans).

The Bible does pass information on but you have to consider it in the context it was written and developed in to understand it. It's not some willy nilly assemblage but it was designed for a passage through time.

Greta wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 6:28 pm There is no reason to believe that the Middle Eastern mythology was any more tuned into reality than the perspectives stemming from African and islander animism and paganism, the Chinese Tao, Japanese Shinto, the Aboriginal and native Americans' relationship with the Earth. Each group's beliefs were initially shaped by their natural and cultural environments.

There is every reason to believe and see otherwise. There is no other ancient text that addresses a passage through time and provides man a concept of "God," Law, Order and Justice.

jerlands wrote: ↑February 7th, 2018, 6:21 pmWhat is the Purpose of the Bible?

What is the 'purpose' of metaphor, of poetry, of myth, of anecdote, of hyperbole, of simile, etc... etc... etc...?

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 10:08 pm

jerlands wrote: ↑February 7th, 2018, 6:21 pmWhat is the Purpose of the Bible?

What is the 'purpose' of metaphor, of poetry, of myth, of anecdote, of hyperbole, of simile, etc... etc... etc...?

The Bible has had a much larger impact on our society than any work in history. That's the discussion I'm trying to engage in.

jerlands wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 3:45 pm
The Bible is much more than a hodgepodge gathered to create some sort of identity for a group of people. That really doesn't make any sense.

You may not like it, but that's how things are. And actually, it's the only way it can make sense. The compilation from several sources is a known fact since the 19th century and agreed among scholars, even those who would be willing to believe that the text provides accurate historical accounts.

jerlands wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 3:45 pmThe notions we are given from the Bible such as "God," our relationship with "God," Law and order, are not trivial.

Myths and the magical practices of religions are more than often not trivial. Actually they play an important ideological function in most societies. It's generally agreed that the biblical narrative differs somehow from other religious myths and that may have played a part in its success. But it's myth anyway.

jerlands wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 3:45 pm They are fundamental philosophical concepts that allow man to establish a purposeful humanitarian civilization. Also, the stories such as Moses are much deeper than simple literal reading might offer. Moses has a symbolic name that reflects the actual function of the event described in the story. You might say you can draw any number of patterns from clouds in the sky but "being drawn from the water" has more connotations when in full context.

Similar interpretations full of symbolism and philosophical views can be drawn from any mythical story, whether it's about Moses, Gilgamesh or Hercules.

I think you overrate the Bible and underrate the equivalent texts of other cultures and times. That the Bible was more influential to the west is obvious; but that's exactly the point - the cultural specificity. What makes the Bible more valuable than the Tao? Many would say the latter is far deeper, more grounded and more sophisticated than the stories of what was originally an Abrahamic war god.

jerlands wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 10:14 pm

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 10:08 pm
What is the 'purpose' of metaphor, of poetry, of myth, of anecdote, of hyperbole, of simile, etc... etc... etc...?

The Bible has had a much larger impact on our society than any work in history. That's the discussion I'm trying to engage in.

Perhaps a greater clarity of the question.
It seems rather a given that the bible, and the misunderstandings of such, have been quite influential on our society, as well as many others (predominately destructive due to the clueless literalists).
Are you trying to judge the impact of the 'holy disciples of the bible'? That's history. It is not the bible that is the devil, it is the clueless viscious 'followers' that use it to justify their insanity and violence.
Ask a witch (Salem). Or a Jew (Holocaust). Or an indigenous of about any culture...

The bible is due for a very critical update!
If all the unenlightened crap were removed from the book, there would hardly be 20 pages left, but no one could use it to justify their (sin) hateful persecution of anyone else!

jerlands wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 9:03 pm
Apparently my prior post for some reason didn't make it through the moderators scrutiny so I'll try again.

Greta wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 6:28 pm I don't see anything in Lucky's post that would contradict the idea that we are part of the Earth.

Here's the issue I'm facing and that is expressed as "modern science and philosophical thought is more advanced in construct than ancient science and philosophical thought." I'm not saying there isn't a reason for us to be present in today's world benefiting from technology. What I am saying and trying to establish first is man is integral with the earth. We are depend upon it in all sense. As for the issue of modern science and philosophical thought being somehow more advanced. I can only imagine this notion arises out of the concept of evolution of species where earlier forms of live were less complete or structured in their makeup and so that train of thought leads us to the notion man has passed through time x number of years therefore he's more advanced? Here's where our current train of thought has led us, 50% of all americans have one form or another of a chronic degenerative disease, we're polluting our waters and we lose topsoil at alarming rates and this is not to mention the very probably effects we're having on global environmental conditions. Why is this happening? We have taken man out of context in all our scientific equations. Man now exists as the observer and not as an active participant in his environment and this is direct result of the posture modern science has taken.

Greta wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 6:28 pm I do think we need to respect the fact that each generation is keen to pass on their learning to the next, and the Bible, along with numerous other works, is an attempt to pass on information to save the next generation from copying the previous one's mistakes. To that end, we also need to respect the many works produced since with the benefit of more societal experience and learning. The Bible is just one source of information, with perspectives of people in the Middle East, how they lived at that time and what they did (often presented in metaphorical form, especially the OT, which is dated enough to be more of a historical curio than a useful guide for modern humans).

The Bible does pass information on but you have to consider it in the context it was written and developed in to understand it. It's not some willy nilly assemblage but it was designed for a passage through time.

Greta wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 6:28 pm There is no reason to believe that the Middle Eastern mythology was any more tuned into reality than the perspectives stemming from African and islander animism and paganism, the Chinese Tao, Japanese Shinto, the Aboriginal and native Americans' relationship with the Earth. Each group's beliefs were initially shaped by their natural and cultural environments.

There is every reason to believe and see otherwise. There is no other ancient text that addresses a passage through time and provides man a concept of "God," Law, Order and Justice.

Yup you read me correctly. More experience increases the chance of higher quality. Your kid needs surgery. Do you seek out a wet behind the ears resident surgeon who isn't yet Board certified or a seasoned attending well into his career?

Name an area where things are not better now than in the Iron age. Food preparation? Judicial system? Medical care? Women's rights? Penal system? Agriculture? Music? Astronomy? Waste treatment? Transportation?

Greta wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 12:16 am That the Bible was more influential to the west is obvious; but that's exactly the point - the cultural specificity.

At last we have an agreement. The Bible has had a huge impact on western civilization. We can see that clearly from Byzantium onwards.

Greta wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 12:16 am What makes the Bible more valuable than the Tao? Many would say the latter is far deeper, more grounded and more sophisticated than the stories of what was originally an Abrahamic war god.

I'm in no way attempting to diminish the depth or beauty of Taoism but Taoism is a different. The Bible was in fact constructed for an Exodus in time. What is has left us with is very complicated but includes notions like creation through "God," Law and Justice, importance in history and the many other things including the magic of words.

In Daoist creation myth, "The Way gave birth to unity; unity gave birth to duality; duality gave birth to trinity; trinity gave birth to the myriad creatures." (Daodejing, 4th century BCE)[18]

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 1:48 am

jerlands wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 9:03 pm
Here's where our current train of thought has led us, 50% of all americans have one form or another of a chronic degenerative disease,

Yup you read me correctly. More experience increases the chance of higher quality. Your kid needs surgery. Do you seek out a wet behind the ears resident surgeon who isn't yet Board certified or a seasoned attending well into his career?

Name an area where things are not better now than in the Iron age. Food preparation? Judicial system? Medical care? Women's rights? Penal system? Agriculture? Music? Astronomy? Waste treatment? Transportation?

America has the best acute care in the world bar none. If you break a bone, need your heart replaced, kidney etc., this is the place to be. My point is America lacks in healthcare in that it doesn't have any. Out of 32 industrialized nations America pays the most but has the highest infant mortality and highest population with chronic disease than any. So what is going wrong here in America? What's wrong with our thinking? It's like we're brainwashed to believe "trust in America" and we'll get on the right path. You have to understand the influence corporations possess not only in the medical field but also in scientific field. To be a loyal American does not mean to be dumb and blind and life isn't a football game where you can simply choose a side.

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 1:48 amName an area where things are not better now than in the Iron age. Food preparation? Judicial system? Medical care? Women's rights? Penal system? Agriculture? Music? Astronomy? Waste treatment? Transportation?

Exactly.

Maybe popular music back then was better than today - it would be hard pressed to be worse :)

Namelesss wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 1:29 am

jerlands wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 10:14 pm

The Bible has had a much larger impact on our society than any work in history. That's the discussion I'm trying to engage in.

The bible is due for a very critical update!

I agree with this in that I believe the Bible is not the be all end all in our relationship with "God" but the question remains if in fact it is truth. What i dislike about it is it leads to an apocalyptic end and this I question.

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 1:48 am Name an area where things are not better now than in the Iron age. Food preparation? Judicial system? Medical care? Women's rights? Penal system? Agriculture? Music? Astronomy? Waste treatment? Transportation?

Well I definitely wouldn't want to have to live 3500 years ago cause that would mean I'd have to make this long trek again It's also hard to generalize because life was different throughout the world during that period. What some ancient people seem to have had that we don't however is an identity with themselves and the world around them. It's hard to say how far in thought some people of that period traveled but I know much of their teaching is still a mystery. Simple things like the the concept of number, functions of number and how number relates to form and function within the human body are still things men of today question. If you really want to examine our world today and question the judicial system, medical care, agriculture,food preparation, water treatment and the penal system I'll tell you each and every one of those services is heavily influenced by corporate interests and due to that fact all of them actually do harm where they could do good.

jerlands wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 6:23 pmYou really have no idea how myth expresses science.

Myth does not express science.

It expresses human interactions and the moral lessons of the day.

Read Joseph Campbell.

Greta wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 2:28 amMaybe popular music back then was better than today - it would be hard pressed to be worse

Saw a quote the other day which came to mind when I read this.

The quote was along the lines of, "Once you turn 35, something terrible happens to music."