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ad c) how would you know?

Raspberry_Yoghurt wrote:

Darsis wrote:As I do a survey of philosophy on the subject of God, I find a real Schism between those who believe in God and those who do not. While it seems that most philosophers, if you play a number game, believe in the existence of God (whatever or whoever he or she is.) So it comes down to more of a question of should I believe in God rather then do I believe in God. I don't know yet if I believe in God, but I would like to get your opinion on whether or not you believe that a belief in a higher power is a good thing or not. Does it actually help you in a real sense to believe or is it a distraction from something more important? I guess it comes down to a question of health for me. Is it healthier to believe in a God that may not exist and somehow gain hope and comfort from the belief, or maybe ignore the issue and concentrate my energies elsewhere? Thanks for sharing.

I think it is backwards to think "what would it make me happy yo believe in", and then just believe in just no matter if it is true or not.

This way life would become living in a lot of comfortaby illusions, sort of the life of small children when parents tell them stories. Comfortable illusions tend to be broken down mercilessly by the harshness or reality.

The better way is to go straight for what is true (or not), and then afterwards work out how you live with this.

To an extent, of course truth is a surer foundation.
But what is truth? Isn't part of truth that which causes influence? Cause and effect - if it happens it happens, right?
Yet, what about when true influence is wrought by believing a lie?
Placebo effect is working on us every moment - it's known that belief can and does affect our physiological health or dis-ease.

All thoughts all have are subjectively limited - illusional. We think we know - but it's just our biased sliver of perspective that we label as "truth."
Should we ignore the power of belief? Just pretend that the pharmaceutical companies don't base their testing of medication effectiveness against the placebo? Should we just keep popping pills instead of using this power of healing for our benefit? Side effects of meds are so fun, aren't they? They often require taking more & more meds!

Psychologically, consider how many people didn't have perfect parents and what the effect has been. The deepest craving is to FEEL loved unconditionally. But because nobody's perfect, nobody can love so purely - close, but human weakness will always cause a lack. Considering the power of belief, would it make sense to believe in the possibility that "God is love" and thereby I am loved unconditionally? How would that help me psychologically? I may stop looking for love in all of the wrong places.

On this thread, some have implied that some people in some situations benefit from belief in God - and it depends on the belief. I agree! It is theorized that up to 80% of mental illness is rooted in distorted interpretations of Judaic/Christian doctrine (I read this in a Christian book). Believing that God is mean, tyrannical and punishing - is not healthy, but instead produces feelings of shame, anxiety and depression. As heretical as it may sound to some, I believe we each need to create and keep recreating God as we see the ultimate GOoD & love based on highest truth (all perspectives).

A study sought to discover what, if any, influence religious involvement had on healing. Of 3 groups those excessively involved and those not involved at all did poorest. Those moderately involved did best. Religion offers a sense of community & faith but also some cognitive distortions, so as I tell my kids: "Take the best, leave the rest."

Darsis wrote:As I do a survey of philosophy on the subject of God, I find a real Schism between those who believe in God and those who do not. While it seems that most philosophers, if you play a number game, believe in the existence of God (whatever or whoever he or she is.) So it comes down to more of a question of should I believe in God rather then do I believe in God. I don't know yet if I believe in God, but I would like to get your opinion on whether or not you believe that a belief in a higher power is a good thing or not. Does it actually help you in a real sense to believe or is it a distraction from something more important? I guess it comes down to a question of health for me. Is it healthier to believe in a God that may not exist and somehow gain hope and comfort from the belief, or maybe ignore the issue and concentrate my energies elsewhere? Thanks for sharing.

I don't think one has control over belief. You either believe or you don't. It is not like you can choose to believe in God if you find that disbelief makes you unhealthy or unhappy. That would simply imply that you never stopped believing in the first place. Similarly you cannot choose to disbelieve if you believing makes you unhealthy or unhappy.

Darsis,

You ask some interesting questions.

Having been a theist (I'm agnostic now), I don't think that there's any evidence for God's existence. Therefore, there aren't any factual reasons which mean that we “should” believe in God, in the sense that there aren't any doubts about God's existence. As such, I think that the term “should” when applied to belief, implies that there is some reason that we should believe that the proposition “God exists” is true or correct. There are many reasons why people believe in God and I've experienced some of them. However upon reflection, I think those reasons are anecdotal in terms of being “evidence” and reinforce belief as according to faith, rather than evidence. If something is contingent upon faith rather than evidence, I don't think that there's grounds to say that we “should” believe that something, because there are not sufficient grounds to claim that that something is the case.

Its difficult to say if belief in a higher power is definitely a “good” or a “bad” thing. I think that it can have both positive and negative effects. Belief in a higher power can help a person get through difficult times in life, whereas it can also be the cause of fundamentalism. Personally, I think it depends upon the nature and degree of belief in God which makes it healthy or unhealthy. There is the consideration that a higher power may not actually exist, which would mean that believers are not correct in there beliefs, hence belief would be “unhealthy,” but I think that as long as God's existence remains a mystery, in that it cannot said to be a fact that God doesn't exist, I think that belief can be considered as “healthy” if it has positive effects.

Vijaydevani wrote:

--- you cannot choose to disbelieve if you believing makes you unhealthy or unhappy.

Many people are not impartial when it comes to what they believe. In the recent UK referendum many people thought they believed that Britain should leave the European Union and voted accordingly simply because that belief and vote described the sort of people they thought they were.

And personal protest is why many people support Donald Trump.

Belinda wrote:Vijaydevani wrote:

--- you cannot choose to disbelieve if you believing makes you unhealthy or unhappy.

Many people are not impartial when it comes to what they believe. In the recent UK referendum many people thought they believed that Britain should leave the European Union and voted accordingly simply because that belief and vote described the sort of people they thought they were.

And personal protest is why many people support Donald Trump.

But this has nothing to do with belief in God. You can choose to do something about your belief in Trump or staying or leaving the EU. Belief in God is much deeper. You cannot choose to disbelieve. You might choose to stop going to the church or temple. You might even have doubts. But while you believe, you cannot suddenly decide to not believe. Nor can you suddenly decide to believe if you do not believe in God. I think I am pretty much repeating myself without explaining anything new. Sorry about that. But I have nothing else to add here or I am at a loss for words.

I think we may have to disagree that " belief in God is much deeper". Belief in God, whichever god applies to the person in question, is cultural. So are many political affiliations cultural. Nobody is born a little Conservative or a little Muslim.

Belinda wrote:I think we may have to disagree that " belief in God is much deeper". Belief in God, whichever god applies to the person in question, is cultural. So are many political affiliations cultural. Nobody is born a little Conservative or a little Muslim.

Okay, let me try and explain this differently. Whether Trump is the candidate you want to vote for can be decided based on the data available. You might arrive at a conclusion to vote for Trump after weighing all the pros and cons, which may not be in agreement with someone who decides not to vote for him. But the question of Trump's existence is not in doubt. In the case of God, we are not voting for him, or deciding whether God is Good or love or whatever. It is a question of his existence which must be taken on faith. There is no logic to it. One just knows. You cannot suddenly decide that you now know that he does not exist. You cannot suddenly decide not to vote for Trump unless he does or says something which repulses you. In the case of God's existence, while you believe, you cannot decide not to believe. That is not in your control. You might choose to question his existence, read a lot in that direction and finally conclude over a period of time that you do not believe in him. Or something happens which destroys your faith in God and you become a non-believer. But while you believe you cannot just choose to not believe and vice versa.

But Vijay, Some people don't actually believe that Mr Trump the true American patriot exists. Some people do believe that Mr Trump the successful business man exists. Some people don't believe that Mr Trump the successful hair-stylist exists. Some people do believe that Mr Trump exists who has a wife who does not compose her own speeches .It's not inconceivable that some people believe that Mr Trump is altogether a fictional character, or to put it crudely 'Mr Trump does not really exist'.

Similarly, some people believe that God is all- powerful and all-benevolent. Some people believe that God is all-powerful but benevolent towards only one particular sect. It's not inconceivable that some people believe that God is altogether a fictional character, or to put it crudely 'God does not really exist'.

The physical, material existence of both God and Mr Trump is a matter of proof of personal identity. I guess that what you would say is that while Mr Trump has his special DNA, his birth and marriage certificates, his unique fingerprints, and possesses real utilities bills linked to his residence, God has none of those. Here I must agree with you, Vijay.

Belinda wrote:Vijaydevani wrote:

--- you cannot choose to disbelieve if you believing makes you unhealthy or unhappy.

Many people are not impartial when it comes to what they believe.

I agree, Belinda.
There is a Native American Analogy of how we have wolves within us fighting... and the one who wins is the one we feed most. If we feed/choose to focus on anger, skepticism, love or hope - whatever we choose will be strongest in our belief system.

To me, believing in God is essentially believing in the GOoD within oneself and within others.
And what we believe is based on focusing and zooming in on certain possibilities while ignoring others.
It's possible that I'll fail at the next challenge I encounter.
It's also possible I will succeed.
I can choose which to focus on and believe.
All beliefs are subjective/biased - might as well have them work for us rather than against us.

I would venture a guess that at least a substantial minority if not an actual majority of those who check the "believe in God" box, haven't given the issue very much thought. And in reality they belong to a church that everyone else in their family/community belongs to. They may or may not attend services much and may or may not follow the teachings of the church on purpose more than a non member does randomly.

Belinda wrote:But Vijay, Some people don't actually believe that Mr Trump the true American patriot exists. Some people do believe that Mr Trump the successful business man exists. Some people don't believe that Mr Trump the successful hair-stylist exists. Some people do believe that Mr Trump exists who has a wife who does not compose her own speeches .It's not inconceivable that some people believe that Mr Trump is altogether a fictional character, or to put it crudely 'Mr Trump does not really exist'.

Similarly, some people believe that God is all- powerful and all-benevolent. Some people believe that God is all-powerful but benevolent towards only one particular sect. It's not inconceivable that some people believe that God is altogether a fictional character, or to put it crudely 'God does not really exist'.

The physical, material existence of both God and Mr Trump is a matter of proof of personal identity. I guess that what you would say is that while Mr Trump has his special DNA, his birth and marriage certificates, his unique fingerprints, and possesses real utilities bills linked to his residence, God has none of those. Here I must agree with you, Vijay.

Belinda, I think we are going in two different directions here. the OP asks if one should stop believing in God if it makes you unhealthy or unhappy. The point I am trying to make is simply that you cannot switch off what you believe in right now on the grounds that it makes you unhappy or unhealthy. You need other reasons to stop disbelieving. Suppose I am convinced that Trump would make a good president. But that conviction makes me unhappy. I cannot decide that just because the conviction makes me unhappy I choose to now believe that Trump would not make a good president. I would need other reasons for it.

-- Updated August 17th, 2016, 12:34 am to add the following --

Belief does not have an on-off switch that you can turn on and off depending upon your mood.

Newme wrote:

To me, believing in God is essentially believing in the GOoD within oneself and within others.
And what we believe is based on focusing and zooming in on certain possibilities while ignoring others.

I agree with Newme on both points. However, let's not become Pollyannas! Reason has to have a place within our loves and faiths.

Reason is where Vijay stands; he sees that God-belief is "deep" i.e. beyond reasoning, unlike a more reasoned belief and faith in some politician's character and ability.

I understand that God-belief is an act of faith for the reason that Newme has set out, and is a justified act of faith for the reason that Newme has set out. I think that Vijay doesn't quite get it that as Newme says,

believing in God is essentially believing in the GOoD within oneself and within others.

I 'd prefer to loose the pun GOoD but that's a minor quibble, and after all the pun could be a useful mnemonic.

Vijaydevani said: The OP asks if one should stop believing in God if it makes you unhealthy or unhappy. The point I am trying to make is simply that you cannot switch off what you believe in right now on the grounds that it makes you unhappy or unhealthy. You need other reasons to stop disbelieving.

I agree, it's analogous to saying, "I will stop loving so & so because I've had trouble getting along with him/her." If you actually loved someone in the first place, you're not going to stop loving them because they've become a nuisance to you.

A belief in God founded on logical analysis is not belief at all, only an accountant's keepsake. Genuine belief in God is founded on a supersensible intuition or understanding. There's a saying: For he who lacks faith, no proof of God' existence is sufficient. For he who has faith, no proof of God's existence is required.

Felix wrote:
A belief in God founded on logical analysis is not belief at all, only an accountant's keepsake. Genuine belief in God is founded on a supersensible intuition or understanding. There's a saying: For he who lacks faith, no proof of God' existence is sufficient. For he who has faith, no proof of God's existence is required.

I am taking it a step further and saying that even if believe in God is founded on logical analysis, you still cannot turn the logic off just because that logic makes you unhealthy or unhappy. You would have to deny the logic for the belief to go away. The logic will not change just because of discomfort.