Philosophy Discussion Forums

Here in the U.S., the prison system has become an industry with unions and Washington lobbyists. It's a big business that employs thousands and thousands of people. So they want to keep it going and growing, and they don't want to make any genuine effort to rehabilitate people or help them become productive citizens, because that would be bad for business. This is why the level of recidivism is very high and the prison populations keeps growing... but that's o.k. 'cause it's good for the industry and it boosts political careers.

Wilson #134,

You have several times misrepresented me in your post. I have tried twice to explain to you, and you have not understood. Perhaps you would consider that civilised life requires us to compromise between our ancient fear and anger responses and our long term goals . I don't want to be misrepresented any more, so I will discontinue with you.

hosshere said: where would "more money for re-education and socialisation" come from? Out of thin air? No, from the taxes of honest, hardworking people like us.

And where do you think the money is coming from to build, maintain and staff the multimillion dollar penal industry? And yet the problem keeps getting worse. If a system is not working, and in fact seems to be exacerbating the problem, does it make sense to just keep expanding it without reforming it? As it is now, the mental health needs of prisoners are not only ignored but they are punished for even having these human needs, e.g., placed in solitary confinement for extended periods of time when they break the rules, which will only make their mental illness worse and even lead to a complete mental breakdown (this is well documented).

Belinda wrote:Wilson #134,

You have several times misrepresented me in your post. I have tried twice to explain to you, and you have not understood. Perhaps you would consider that civilised life requires us to compromise between our ancient fear and anger responses and our long term goals . I don't want to be misrepresented any more, so I will discontinue with you.

Belinda, I'm sure you're a good person and want to be understanding of the failings of others. What I'm saying is that it is possible to go too far in excusing the bad behavior of others, and in my opinion you've done so. But I apologize for offending you.

-- Updated September 6th, 2014, 5:05 pm to add the following --

Felix wrote:Here in the U.S., the prison system has become an industry with unions and Washington lobbyists. It's a big business that employs thousands and thousands of people. So they want to keep it going and growing, and they don't want to make any genuine effort to rehabilitate people or help them become productive citizens, because that would be bad for business. This is why the level of recidivism is very high and the prison populations keeps growing... but that's o.k. 'cause it's good for the industry and it boosts political careers.

Conspiracy theories are fun, aren't they? Obviously there are some institutions and individuals who are in favor of incarcerating people for monetary gain, but that's a very small part of the problem. Like me, most people don't like chronic lawbreakers and would prefer they be put where they can't hurt the rest of us. In the US we have a lot of lawbreakers, particularly among the minority population, and that's really what's driving the numbers.

That's not to say that we shouldn't reform some of the laws, particularly related to drug possession.

Wilson said: Conspiracy theories are fun, aren't they? Obviously there are some institutions and individuals who are in favor of incarcerating people for monetary gain, but that's a very small part of the problem.

You should educate yourself about the U.S. penal system before you spout nonsense: the U.S. crime rate has greatly declined in the last 20 years and yet the prison population has doubled during this time period. More and more people (especially poor minorities) are being sent to prison for minor offenses and being given longer prison sentences.

Here's a statistical analysis should you care to read it: http://sentencingproject.org/doc/public ... _sheet.pdf

Felix wrote:You should educate yourself about the U.S. penal system before you spout nonsense: the U.S. crime rate has greatly declined in the last 20 years and yet the prison population has doubled during this time period. More and more people (especially poor minorities) are being sent to prison for minor offenses and being given longer prison sentences.

Here's a statistical analysis should you care to read it: http://sentencingproject.org/doc/public ... _sheet.pdf

Have you considered that maybe the reason that crime is down is that the chronic felons are being incarcerated longer? You do realize that there are career criminals out there who will offend whenever they aren't in prison, right?

As I said, the drug laws need overhaul. Incarceration of repeat and violent offenders, however, should not be reduced.

Wilson wrote:

Felix wrote:You should educate yourself about the U.S. penal system before you spout nonsense: the U.S. crime rate has greatly declined in the last 20 years and yet the prison population has doubled during this time period.

Crime rates appear to be dropping around the world (I'd post a link to the economist but I have not been a member long enough).

The main argument I hear is better policing methodology and better security measures.

I'm in favour of a system more akin to the old conscription but not in the military sense, just in terms of a training camp which provides rehab, physical training, education, community service and learning a trade in a disciplined environment for those who are getting in to trouble or who need structure. Often young men especially require a more physical, dynamic form of learning.

No doubt that would cost a lot more than it costs to run prisons, but if we could also use the money that we use to fund the military (assuming a future time of stable world peace) then it seems doable. Sort of combining prisons and the military but making it in to a peaceful organisation.

Also, its important that companies get subsidies to employ people when they have completed their 'community service' so that they can go straight in to a job and not be tempted to fall back in to old habits.

Lucylu, is this sort of training not unsuited to this day and age when the young are supposed to be autonomous? The system that you describe , above, was the policy of English educators of the working classes when the children of workers were to be trained only in what was necessary for their development into new recruits for the labour force and lower middle class of the capitalist system.

I agree with discipline but to be effective in a free society that discipline must be self imposed and based upon reflection and not fear. To rehabilitate criminals is not easy and does require a lot of public money, and a system that is not corrupted by profit seeking.

Belinda wrote:Lucylu, is this sort of training not unsuited to this day and age when the young are supposed to be autonomous? The system that you describe , above, was the policy of English educators of the working classes when the children of workers were to be trained only in what was necessary for their development into new recruits for the labour force and lower middle class of the capitalist system.

I agree with discipline but to be effective in a free society that discipline must be self imposed and based upon reflection and not fear. To rehabilitate criminals is not easy and does require a lot of public money, and a system that is not corrupted by profit seeking.

Hi Belinda

Thank you for your reply. I just don't see how national service would provide less autonomy than a current prison? I agree that humans SHOULD be able to self discipline, in an ideal world, but they need to be taught how to do that. The army, for example, is much more effective at teaching self discipline than prison. I'm just suggesting that being in prison is more in line with that.

I'm not talking about everyone doing it, just those who want to and those young people who are starting to be too challenging for mainstream school or break the law. I just don't see any benefit in giving young people ASBO's and putting them in young offenders prisons and its better to catch it before it becomes a real habit or career path. Wouldn't it be much better to put them in to a much more rigorous training centre?

I think the vast majority of crimes are incidental as even if they are not commited out of actual necessity, they are a product of a person's environment and a lack of purpose. The answer obviously lies in many areas of society, not just prisons.

There should definately be free (or means tested) rehab centres all over the country, funded by the Government.

And, obviously there need to be improvements to the education system also, especially in deprived areas.

I was reading about one school in particular lately which was in trouble and the answer was in bringing in a new head, new staff and bringing back discipline and a more formal attitude. The head said that the children had been treated with a very softly softly approach as they had problems at home and consequently they basically ended up being very disruptive and no one was doing any work. She raised the expectations and brought back discipline and then standards quickly got better.

Its a bit like people who get rescue dogs and then let them be aggressive and badly behaved because the owner thinks they cant be trained and that's just the way they are because of they're history. When really the dog needs even more training than one from a good home and it just takes more effort. The current system just locks people up in a negative environment and then releases them a few months or years later.

There are trade course and college courses prison inmates can take in U.S. prisons, or they can opt to work (but at a slave wage that is ridiculously low). There are less options when you get to the maximum security prisons and super-maxes. But those house some of the most dangerous criminals.

A good friend of mine is in prison now (bank robbery) and has taken college courses in his medium security prison. When he was in a maximum security prison there were none offered, and coalitions of gangs basically ran the joint, with him witnesses gang wars in with some inmates murdered with home-made butcher knives sticking out of their heads.

You're not merely reforming members of the Mexican Mafia prison gang, Aryan Brotherhood, Black P Stone Nation, or La Cosa Nostra by simply giving them classes on creative writing or putting them in the wood shop.

From Sicily to Milwaukee members of La Cosa Nostra have had advanced degrees from law degrees to medical degrees. During WWII when the Sicilian Mafia helped the U.S. invasion, a Marine Corps officer who was a made man in the mafia from New York City, helped run the under-world in Sicily with his native Sicilian mafia Don cousin who was a medical doctor.

Also, gang members make up a lot of the U.S. military. I know I was in the Marine Corps serving beside quite a number of them. One Marine was even inducted into the GD's (Gangster Disciples) aboard ship by sailors in the GDs, with a 6 point star branding on his arm, during the Gulf War. And drive-by shootings used to occur on Naval bases after the war. Actually, I was a Navy owned night club on a Navy base when a gang fight almost broke out between Vice Lords and some others.

During the invasion of Iraq it made news at the amount of U.S. gang tagging (spray paint graffiti) that U.S. military personnel marked across Iraq and on military equipment. Gangs like the Latin Kings (LKs).

-- Updated September 9th, 2014, 8:03 am to add the following --

Consider:

1. mafiahistorymilwaukee.blogspot.com/feed ... ts/default

8/12/2014 The bid by John J. Balistrieri, a felon and the son of Milwaukee's onetime organized crime boss, to get his law license back was shot down by the Wisconsin Supreme Court Tuesday morning.

2. http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/270903591.html

In rejecting John Balistrieri’s bid to get his law license back, the Supreme Court pointed to the flippant answers he provided during a 2002 deposition as an indication that he has not accepted responsibility for his crime.

Asked about his work history, Balistrieri said during the deposition that from 1984 to 1989 he was “employed by the United States government.” Asked to be more specific, he said, “I was in charge of the Recreation Department at ... La Tuna Penitentiary.”

The court noted that “while (Balistrieri) is now willing to say that his attitude has changed and he accepts that there was a conviction, he also explicitly testified yet in this proceeding that he did nothing wrong, which means that the conviction must still be illegitimate to some degree in his view.”

The court also questioned the propriety of Balistrieri’s failing to report to the IRS money he received from the Shorecrest Hotel, where he worked while it was owned by his brother. John Balistrieri said the money represented gifts from his brother and that his accountant told him the transactions need not be reported, records show.

“We conclude, however, that there is, at a minimum, a real question about the propriety of Attorney Balistrieri failing to report as income the hundreds of thousands of dollars that he received out of draws from the Shorecrest accounts,” the court wrote.

John Balistrieri testified that he did not receive regular pay for being in charge of the daily operations of the hotel. Rather, he received other benefits, such as a free apartment, utilities, health insurance, a car and some other living expenses, the court said.

The court noted that Balistrieri’s criminal conviction alone was not enough to prevent him from being a lawyer. The court is “not averse to providing a second chance” to disbarred lawyers if they show they have changed their ways, it wrote.

The Journal Sentinel reported in 2011 that more than 135 people with criminal records had Wisconsin law licenses.

John Balistreir may be reformed but not because of prison classes or trades, he already had an advanced degree being a lawyer, before he was ever sentenced to prison.

And it all comes down to the same thing: the idea that money and power are essentials of living. But I don't know if that's true...

Society does indeed need prisons. Their primary function is to punish criminals and to protect the public from such criminals. Of course, building more and more prisons in which to warehouse inmates does absolutely nothing to address the problem of criminality. If there weren't so many bad people doing bad things, there would be no need to incarcerate them.

Lucylu wrote:

Belinda wrote:Lucylu, is this sort of training not unsuited to this day and age when the young are supposed to be autonomous? The system that you describe , above, was the policy of English educators of the working classes when the children of workers were to be trained only in what was necessary for their development into new recruits for the labour force and lower middle class of the capitalist system.

I agree with discipline but to be effective in a free society that discipline must be self imposed and based upon reflection and not fear. To rehabilitate criminals is not easy and does require a lot of public money, and a system that is not corrupted by profit seeking.

Hi Belinda

Thank you for your reply. I just don't see how national service would provide less autonomy than a current prison? I agree that humans SHOULD be able to self discipline, in an ideal world, but they need to be taught how to do that. The army, for example, is much more effective at teaching self discipline than prison. I'm just suggesting that being in prison is more in line with that.

I'm not talking about everyone doing it, just those who want to and those young people who are starting to be too challenging for mainstream school or break the law. I just don't see any benefit in giving young people ASBO's and putting them in young offenders prisons and its better to catch it before it becomes a real habit or career path. Wouldn't it be much better to put them in to a much more rigorous training centre?

I think the vast majority of crimes are incidental as even if they are not commited out of actual necessity, they are a product of a person's environment and a lack of purpose. The answer obviously lies in many areas of society, not just prisons.

There should definately be free (or means tested) rehab centres all over the country, funded by the Government.

And, obviously there need to be improvements to the education system also, especially in deprived areas.

I was reading about one school in particular lately which was in trouble and the answer was in bringing in a new head, new staff and bringing back discipline and a more formal attitude. The head said that the children had been treated with a very softly softly approach as they had problems at home and consequently they basically ended up being very disruptive and no one was doing any work. She raised the expectations and brought back discipline and then standards quickly got better.

Its a bit like people who get rescue dogs and then let them be aggressive and badly behaved because the owner thinks they cant be trained and that's just the way they are because of they're history. When really the dog needs even more training than one from a good home and it just takes more effort. The current system just locks people up in a negative environment and then releases them a few months or years later.

I do think that National Service is better than prisons, but I think the fighting services would turn down hardened criminals except when they were in dire need of recruits , say when the best fighters were disabled or dead.The fighting services would also not admit mentally ill men and women, or illiterate or physically malformed, whether obese or otherwise malnourished unless, again, the services badly needed just anyone at all.

As you say, you are not talking about everyone doing it. But I don't know what sort of "training centre" is best. I guess that exciting challenges within the trainee's powers, and experiences of the pleasures and challenges of intelligent and reasonably compliant behaviour combined with due medical and educational attention to physical, mental and emotional defects would work very well. We are a hell of a long way from this while 75% of prisoners are mentally ill.The best rehabilitation costs money.

You mention rescue dogs. You are right and most can with patience and skill be rehabilitated. Dogs famously appreciate acquiring their own human families for life. But humans are more complex in their needs.

I agree with you about discipline and ordered life style. For both people and dogs, actually.

Logic_ill wrote:And it all comes down to the same thing: the idea that money and power are essentials of living. But I don't know if that's true...

Not essentials of living, but rather of death-- decay-- putrefaction. The worldly religion.