Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Consul]

You know something else that isn't real, that is a mere social construct? Money

If to be real is to exist and to be mind- or language-independent, then money isn't real; but if to be real is simply to exist, then it is real. Social constructs are real in the weak sense of "real", which doesn't require mind- or language-independence.

[Consul]

If to be real is to exist and to be mind- or language-independent, then money isn't real; but if to be real is simply to exist, then it is real. Social constructs are real in the weak sense of "real", which doesn't require mind- or language-independence.

Social constructions should be distinguished from mere fictions.

[Sy Borg]

You know something else that isn't real, that is a mere social construct? Money

If to be real is to exist and to be mind- or language-independent, then money isn't real; but if to be real is simply to exist, then it is real. Social constructs are real in the weak sense of "real", which doesn't require mind- or language-independence.

They are meta-realities that are shaped by culture, that only exist in context of culture.

[Lagayascienza]

In the end, I think society should just leave people alone and let them be the gender they feel themselves to be. I don't understand why people have such a problem with it. Religion, intolerance/fear of difference?

I think that the vast majority of people are happy to just leave people alone. Although it's not quite that simple, is it? The advocacy of "gender affirming care" for children is not just leaving people alone is it? The demanding of trans women to be allowed to compete in women's sports isn't fair on their competitors. The demanding of convicted male rapists to be accepted as a woman and put into a women's prison is not fair on the other women prisoners. We have gone well beyond just "live and let live".

Sure, in all areas of life there will always be people who want to push the envelop. I do not agree with trans women competing in women's sports or trans men competing in men's sports (I've not heard of the latter happening). Nor do I agree that male rapists should be accommodated in women's prisons. Trans people must accept that their gender status can have implications for others in sport etc. And, no doubt, most are sensible people who do understand this.

The problems you speak of are rare but they are made to seem more common by right-wing nutters in the media. However that may be, it does not detract from the fact that there is a certain proportion of the population who have a real condition called gender dysphoria which negatively impacts their quality of life and which can and should be treated if the gender dysphoric person wishes it. The etiology of GD is irrelevant, as is the question of whether gender identity is innate or a social construct. These are esoteric biological and philosophical questions that have no bearing on whether society should "leave people alone" and stop oppressing them for matters over which they have no control. We should let people assume the gender they feel they are, but with the understanding that if they transition, they must accept that there are certain areas such as sport which for physiological reasons, will not be able to accommodate their transition.

[JackDaydream]

All foetuses are born female and the formation of male characteristic requires the dissolution of primitive female organs to transform ovaries into testicles, and the clitoris into the penile glans.
This process is can be delayed in some populations where all children are born as girls and do not differentiate until puberty.

Your description of the process of sex determination (not to be confused with sex differentiation as a post-sex-determination process!) is completely false, because at the beginning there are sexually undifferentiated gonads, which then develop into ovaries or testicles. Ovaries never become testicles, or vice versa!
We were all sexless (neither female nor male) at the beginning of our lives in mother's womb!

"The chromosomal sex of the embryo is established at fertilization. However, 6 weeks elapse in humans before the first signs of sex differentiation are noticed. Sex differentiation involves a series of events whereby the sexually indifferent gonads and genitalia progressively acquire male or female characteristics. Believed initially to be governed entirely by the presence or absence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, gonadal determination has proven to rely on a complex network of genes, whose balanced expression levels either activate the testis pathway and simultaneously repress the ovarian pathway or vice versa. The presence or absence of primordial germ cells, of extragonadal origin, also has a sexually dimorphic relevance. Subsequently, internal and external genitalia will follow the male pathway in the presence of androgens and anti-Müllerian hormone (AMH), or the female pathway in their absence.

Genital sex differentiation involves a series of events whereby the sexually indifferent embryo progressively acquires male or female characteristics in the gonads, genital tract and external genitalia. Sex development consists of several sequential stages. Genetic sex, as determined by the chromosome constitution, drives the primitive gonad to differentiate into a testis or an ovary. Subsequently, internal and external genitalia will follow the male pathway in the presence of specific testicular hormones, or the female pathway in their absence. Since the presence of the fetal testis plays a determining role in the differentiation of the reproductive tract, the term "sex determination" has been coined to designate the differentiation of the gonad during early fetal development.

No sexual difference can be observed in the gonads until the 6th week of embryonic life in humans and 11.5 days post-coitum (dpc) in mice. Undifferentiated gonads of XX or XY individuals are apparently identical and can form either ovaries or testes. This period is therefore called indifferent or bipotential stage of gonadal development."

Source:

To clarify the distinction between…

"Sex determination versus sex differentiation

A distinction is often made in the biological literature between sex determination and sex differentiation. The former is meant to designate the developmental step at which an individual fate is irremediably directed towards either the male or the female condition, whereas the latter describes subsequent steps in developmental pathways, during which the male and female phenotypes are progressively built up, according to the initial decision.

The scope of sex determination is sometimes restricted to the action of the initial trigger (e.g. Sry activation in therians), whereas the subsequent development of gonads into testes or ovaries (or of floral meristems into carpels and stamens) is referred to as ‘primary sex differentiation’. This strict definition of sex determination and delimitation of its occurrence underlies the classical dichotomous view of sex determination, according to which sex is determined either by genes or by environment. Accordingly; differences in the timing of action of the initial trigger has been proposed as a criterion to distinguish GSD from ESD: in the former, sex is determined by genes at conception, while in the latter it is determined by environment during a sensitive period of embryonic development (…).

…[W]e think there are good reasons to reject this dichotomous view, which fails to account for the many complex systems of sex determination where both genes and environment contribute to the final outcome; this view also fails to account for the fundamental similarity in the downstream molecular and physiological mechanisms that lead to the production of males and females, whatever the initial trigger termined by genes at conception, while in the latter it is determined by environment during a sensitive period of embryonic development (…).

…[W]e think there are good reasons to reject this dichotomous view, which fails to account for the many complex systems of sex determination where both genes and environment contribute to the final outcome; this view also fails to account for the fundamental similarity in the downstream molecular and physiological mechanisms that lead to the production of males and females, whatever the initial trigger[17](…). On the same reasoning, there are good reasons to reject a fundamental distinction between sex determination and ‘primary sex differentiation’ (i.e. gonad development), if we want to understand the evolution of sex-determination systems. In all vertebrates, the same genes are involved in the cascade leading to gonadal development, sometimes with different timing of action and localization in the pathway. Dmrt1, for instance, takes a role of downstream effector in most lineages, but has moved up the hierarchy in some of them to occupy the top of the cascade; it does not make much sense to consider Dmrt1 as either a sex-determination or a sex-differentiation gene depending on lineage.

In line with Uller & Helanterä (2011), we define sex determination as the whole process that leads to the development of differentiated reproductive organs (e.g. either testes or ovaries in animals). In vertebrates, the process starts when the precursor cells from the genital ridge develop into either Sertoli or granulosa cells; the timing and molecular processes are similar between ESD and GSD species. Along the same line, we think the concept of sex determination should not be limited to organisms with separate sexes, but also applies to hermaphrodites. Too strict a definition of sex determination fails to account for sequential hermaphroditism or mating-type switching, where a redifferentiation of sexes or mating types occurs, triggered by epigenetic cues (environmental or social information). Other epigenetic cues (positional information) are similarly used in simultaneous hermaphrodites to trigger the development of distinct cell lineages along either the male or the female pathways, based on the same gene networks and molecular cascades as in species with separate sexes. This is also a form of sex determination.

Sex is never determined at conception. Sex determination is a complex and dynamic process, starting with one or a series of initial cues (genetic, epigenetic, or often a mixture of both), and ending with the commitment of undifferentiated gonads into either testes or ovaries (or of undifferentiated meristems into either stamens or carpels). This commitment may be temporary and reversible (as in sequential hermaphrodites), and the initial decision potentially affected by mutations or environmental effects at any step along the sex-determination cascade (…)."

(Beukeboom, Leo W., and Nicolas Perrin. The Evolution of Sex Determination. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2014. pp. 16-7)

When I suggest that gender identity involves meanings and values, I am not meaning that in isolation, but as one aspect. I adopt a bio- psychosocial model. The nature and nurture model is an important, as well as narrative identity. Factors like exposure to hormones in the womb are important and some have argued that exposure to hormones at critical points may affect gender identity at the brain level. There is the dispute over brain differences between male and female brains.

The area of chromosomes is an interesting one, especially the XYY syndrome, which is sometimes regarded as the 'superman' one. It was found as being more predominant in prisons and considered to be associated with increased aggression. The one person who have known who was found to have XYY chromosomes after teenage aggression was gender dysphoric and saw the XYY condition as a form of intersex. She was living as female although had to take a higher dose of female hormones than most transsexuals. She was extremely tall and had problems 'passing' but had large hips and was infertile as male.

Of course, in most cases people are not aware of what chromosomes they have because there needs to be a reason to be tested. The awareness of what chromosomes one has may affect identity. I have read that it has been discovered that more biological males have XXY or XYY chromosomes than previously.

[JackDaydream]

To Sculptor,

My reply to your post in response to me is in the box. That is because the site requires me to remove links and splitting up boxes in quotes is extremely difficult on a phone, without a mouse. So, I am sorry if the layout makes it appear that you are saying what is my part and I am too tired to write it again.

[JackDaydream]

While the nature of intersex and transgender or transsexual have such important areas of variance it does show that gender is a spectrum or continuum.

If gender = sex, you are a plainly wrong. If gender ≠ sex, please tell me what gender is! For if I don't know what gender is, I can't tell whether it's a spectrum or not.

There is a transbinary plurality of differences both within the male sex and within the female sex, but there are no sexes other than these two ones.

Gender is based on biological sex in my view but so many cultural assumptions and values come in which make the distinction between sex and gender blurry. The problem which I see with your strictly biological distinction is that identity involves feelings about one's body at the core of identity. That is why gender dysphoria is hard to treat as a psychological condition, especially when the options of physical interventions is possible. In the past, this was so much more limited and may have involved people trying to live and dress as their chosen sex/gender. What I was trying to argue in my post that the emphasis on biological credibility of 'passing' may be more reason why people need to seek hormones and surgery to pass, as opposed to more critical thinking about the concept of gender.

[Sculptor1]

All foetuses are born female and the formation of male characteristic requires the dissolution of primitive female organs to transform ovaries into testicles, and the clitoris into the penile glans.
This process is can be delayed in some populations where all children are born as girls and do not differentiate until puberty.

Your description of the process of sex determination (not to be confused with sex differentiation as a post-sex-determination process!) is completely false, because at the beginning there are sexually undifferentiated gonads, which then develop into ovaries or testicles. Ovaries never become testicles, or vice versa!
We were all sexless (neither female nor male) at the beginning of our lives in mother's womb!

You are not paying attention.

"The chromosomal sex of the embryo is established at fertilization. However, 6 weeks elapse in humans before the first signs of sex differentiation are noticed. Sex differentiation involves a series of events whereby the sexually indifferent gonads and genitalia progressively acquire male or female characteristics. Believed initially to be governed entirely by the presence or absence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, gonadal determination has proven to rely on a complex network of genes, whose balanced expression levels either activate the testis pathway and simultaneously repress the ovarian pathway or vice versa. The presence or absence of primordial germ cells, of extragonadal origin, also has a sexually dimorphic relevance. Subsequently, internal and external genitalia will follow the male pathway in the presence of androgens and anti-Müllerian hormone (AMH), or the female pathway in their absence.

Genital sex differentiation involves a series of events whereby the sexually indifferent embryo progressively acquires male or female characteristics in the gonads, genital tract and external genitalia. Sex development consists of several sequential stages. Genetic sex, as determined by the chromosome constitution, drives the primitive gonad to differentiate into a testis or an ovary. Subsequently, internal and external genitalia will follow the male pathway in the presence of specific testicular hormones, or the female pathway in their absence. Since the presence of the fetal testis plays a determining role in the differentiation of the reproductive tract, the term "sex determination" has been coined to designate the differentiation of the gonad during early fetal development.

No sexual difference can be observed in the gonads until the 6th week of embryonic life in humans and 11.5 days post-coitum (dpc) in mice. Undifferentiated gonads of XX or XY individuals are apparently identical and can form either ovaries or testes. This period is therefore called indifferent or bipotential stage of gonadal development."

Source: citation/

To clarify the distinction between…

"Sex determination versus sex differentiation

A distinction is often made in the biological literature between sex determination and sex differentiation. The former is meant to designate the developmental step at which an individual fate is irremediably directed towards either the male or the female condition, whereas the latter describes subsequent steps in developmental pathways, during which the male and female phenotypes are progressively built up, according to the initial decision.

The scope of sex determination is sometimes restricted to the action of the initial trigger (e.g. Sry activation in therians), whereas the subsequent development of gonads into testes or ovaries (or of floral meristems into carpels and stamens) is referred to as ‘primary sex differentiation’. This strict definition of sex determination and delimitation of its occurrence underlies the classical dichotomous view of sex determination, according to which sex is determined either by genes or by environment. Accordingly; differences in the timing of action of the initial trigger has been proposed as a criterion to distinguish GSD from ESD: in the former, sex is determined by genes at conception, while in the latter it is determined by environment during a sensitive period of embryonic development (…).

…[W]e think there are good reasons to reject this dichotomous view, which fails to account for the many complex systems of sex determination where both genes and environment contribute to the final outcome; this view also fails to account for the fundamental similarity in the downstream molecular and physiological mechanisms that lead to the production of males and females, whatever the initial trigger termined by genes at conception, while in the latter it is determined by environment during a sensitive period of embryonic development (…).

…[W]e think there are good reasons to reject this dichotomous view, which fails to account for the many complex systems of sex determination where both genes and environment contribute to the final outcome; this view also fails to account for the fundamental similarity in the downstream molecular and physiological mechanisms that lead to the production of males and females, whatever the initial trigger[17](…). On the same reasoning, there are good reasons to reject a fundamental distinction between sex determination and ‘primary sex differentiation’ (i.e. gonad development), if we want to understand the evolution of sex-determination systems. In all vertebrates, the same genes are involved in the cascade leading to gonadal development, sometimes with different timing of action and localization in the pathway. Dmrt1, for instance, takes a role of downstream effector in most lineages, but has moved up the hierarchy in some of them to occupy the top of the cascade; it does not make much sense to consider Dmrt1 as either a sex-determination or a sex-differentiation gene depending on lineage.

In line with Uller & Helanterä (2011), we define sex determination as the whole process that leads to the development of differentiated reproductive organs (e.g. either testes or ovaries in animals). In vertebrates, the process starts when the precursor cells from the genital ridge develop into either Sertoli or granulosa cells; the timing and molecular processes are similar between ESD and GSD species. Along the same line, we think the concept of sex determination should not be limited to organisms with separate sexes, but also applies to hermaphrodites. Too strict a definition of sex determination fails to account for sequential hermaphroditism or mating-type switching, where a redifferentiation of sexes or mating types occurs, triggered by epigenetic cues (environmental or social information). Other epigenetic cues (positional information) are similarly used in simultaneous hermaphrodites to trigger the development of distinct cell lineages along either the male or the female pathways, based on the same gene networks and molecular cascades as in species with separate sexes. This is also a form of sex determination.

Sex is never determined at conception. Sex determination is a complex and dynamic process, starting with one or a series of initial cues (genetic, epigenetic, or often a mixture of both), and ending with the commitment of undifferentiated gonads into either testes or ovaries (or of undifferentiated meristems into either stamens or carpels). This commitment may be temporary and reversible (as in sequential hermaphrodites), and the initial decision potentially affected by mutations or environmental effects at any step along the sex-determination cascade (…)."

(Beukeboom, Leo W., and Nicolas Perrin. The Evolution of Sex Determination. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2014. pp. 16-7)

[JackDaydream]

The argument is often on the basis of transgender women not being 'women' and a very clear binary categorisation of gender distinction.…

Give me a (non-circular) definition of "woman" that includes transwomen in this category!
(Note that the following is a circular and hence inadequate definition: "x is a woman" =def "x identifies as a woman")

My own argument for a 'woman' which includes a transwoman would be someone who has an internalised concept of femaleness, which may have based on biological attributes or some other basis. I know that you see those not based in biology as delusional. You are entitled to your view as I see it but so is the person who self-identified.

The difficulty comes to the dialogue in daily life. I know from previous discussions that you are not in the practice of 'outing' people, but often the biological essentialism is used in such a way. Biology applied alongside religious fundamentalism has created a lot of psychological suppression and bigotry for those who are 'different' in terms of sex/gender and sexuality.

[Sculptor1]

Consul seem to be struggling against the truth with out of date information.
May he should look up XX male syndrome
There half a dozen other categories too.

Chromesomes are not deterministic, as simple arrangements of genetic material their conformation is an indicator only of what might determine gender outcomes.

[JackDaydream]

Consul seem to be struggling against the truth with out of date information.
May he should look up XX male syndrome
There half a dozen other categories too.

Chromesomes are not deterministic, as simple arrangements of genetic material their conformation is an indicator only of what might determine gender outcomes.

There are so many aspects of being male and female. The XX male syndrome is an interesting factor, and there is adrenogenital syndrome which causes various degrees of masculinisation in females. There are so many odd aspects of the physical level, including men developing breasts in later life. Many cisgender people are busy trying to improve their correspondence with assigned gender, rather than to get rid of dysphoria. This ranges from cosmetics, surgery and hormone replacement therapy.

One area of research is the role of the Foxl 2 gene and its mutation. Most of the research is done on mice and goats, and the turning on and off of ovarian and testicular function. However, there is indication that it could impact on human sexual differentiation. It is possible that some aspects of functioning involves mutations and chemical factors in the environment, including artificial hormones in farming and the nature of plastics, may have impacts on fertility and other aspects.

[Belinda]

To Sculptor,

My reply to your post in response to me is in the box. That is because the site requires me to remove links and splitting up boxes in quotes is extremely difficult on a phone, without a mouse. So, I am sorry if the layout makes it appear that you are saying what is my part and I am too tired to write it again.

There is at least one behaviour where biological sex is the same as gender. That is that among all two- sexed individuals the male penetrates the female. If in a sexual act the female penetrates the male in some contrived manner, say with a finger, then the female is imitating the male, but not changing 'gender'.

To change gender means to adopt a new behaviour usually associated with one or the other sex but which is not biologically linked to sex.

[Lagayascienza]

I had to look up "cisgender". Turns out that I am cisgender and never knew it. Does English need this word?

[Sculptor1]

Consul seem to be struggling against the truth with out of date information.
May he should look up XX male syndrome
There half a dozen other categories too.

Chromesomes are not deterministic, as simple arrangements of genetic material their conformation is an indicator only of what might determine gender outcomes.

There are so many aspects of being male and female. The XX male syndrome is an interesting factor, and there is adrenogenital syndrome which causes various degrees of masculinisation in females. There are so many odd aspects of the physical level, including men developing breasts in later life. Many cisgender people are busy trying to improve their correspondence with assigned gender, rather than to get rid of dysphoria. This ranges from cosmetics, surgery and hormone replacement therapy.

One area of research is the role of the Foxl 2 gene and its mutation. Most of the research is done on mice and goats, and the turning on and off of ovarian and testicular function. However, there is indication that it could impact on human sexual differentiation. It is possible that some aspects of functioning involves mutations and chemical factors in the environment, including artificial hormones in farming and the nature of plastics, may have impacts on fertility and other aspects.

Then there is the massive arena of "intersex" which we have not really touched on.

[Sculptor1]

I had to look up "cisgender". Turns out that I am cisgender and never knew it. Does English need this word?

I personally refuse to accept that as my identifier.
But from the POV of an intersex, and trans the description is valid.