Philosophy Discussion Forums

Gertie wrote: ↑March 19th, 2024, 12:49 pm Belindi

I understand that zionism is a nineteenth century invention that was deliberately inserted into Judaism. However is there something Scriptural that perpetuates the "Promised Land" notion that I learned about long ago at school, as a Christian child.
Moreover I wonder if the promised land myth is common to most if not all religions or if it applies only to those cultures that colonise and own land.

We have a pretty good history (at least partly mythologised)  of the Jewish people as an ethno-religious tribal group.  I don't know how common it was in the times of the ancient Hebrews, but they had a sad record of being invaded and occupied, or exiled and enslaved by their invaders.   They did a  bit of that themselves too.  Their ''Promised Land'' was Canaan, it was promised by Yahweh to Abraham and his descendents, and it's where Moses led the Jews to after exile in Egypt.  

Jerusalem was made the site for Solomon's original  Temple, which contained the Holy of Holies,  a sort of holiday home for Yahweh's visits to his Chosen People. Babylonian invaders destroyed Solomon's Temple, but it was re-built, and the Second Temple was at the centre of the great Jewish religious festivals - like how Jesus came to Jerusalem for the Passover and turned over the outer Temple money-lenders' tables causing a  ruckus- the rest as they say, is Christianity.  The Romans destroyed the Second Temple during a rebellion a bit after Jesus' time (around the time of the first Gospel, Mark's, in AD 70), causing yet more dispersion, but the ruins are still venerated. Anyway, one way or another the Jewish diaspora made them an ethno-religion of immigrants dispersed all over the place.  And they were often treated with suspicion and animosity as immigrants still are, with the extra burden of being the 'Christ killers'.  

Lots of  myths grew up about Jews as the immigrant 'other', like the medieval  'Blood Libel' that they sacrificed Christian babies in rituals,  and the cursed Wandering Jew.  And there are more trendy ones like the  Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, going back at least to The Protocols of Zion.  And today when you see neo-fascists and anti-immigrant marchers chanting 'They will not replace us' and 'Blood and Soil'  they're directly mimicking Nazi nationalists.

Zionism is understandable given that history, and finally the genocidal displacement of WWII led to Britain deciding to give a chunk of modern day Palestine to the Jews.   Like you do.   Jerusalem is still the holiest place on earth for Christians and Jews, and Mohammed has some important connection too, and the sacred Dome of the Rock Islamic temple was built on the old Hebrew Temple Mount (rude!). 

So Jerusalem in particular is a religious as well as territorial hot potato.  You also have a bunch of  evangelical Christians who've convinced themselves that it's prophesied Jesus's second coming can only happen when the Jews re-occupy the Promised Land.  These are Christian Zionists.  I don't know how much sway they have in American politics, but it doesn't help. Biden is a disgrace in his own right. And Trump moved the American Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as an FU to Palestine, as was his Jewish son-in-law's proposed 'peace plan'. The same bloke now in the midst of a genocide -

''Jared Kushner has praised the “very valuable” potential of Gaza’s “waterfront property” and suggested Israel should remove civilians while it “cleans up” the strip.

The former property dealer, married to Donald Trump’s daughter Ivanka, made the comments in an interview at Harvard University on 8 March.''

- Guardian. 

Thanks Gertie. I read the article several times.

I understand from the article how the Promised Land myth pertains to Judaism and that the myth is justifiable for Jews by Jahweh's propensity for helping Jews to settle and prosper. I also understand that not every Christian nation is bent on colonising foreign lands.

However I still think that established sects of Judeo-Christianity such as the Church of England, and RC , are proponents of colonialism whenever colonialism would be to the advantage of the establishment. Moreover I think that we could fit statistics of established religious affiliation , political afilliation, and preferred moral system into a single mind set which pertains to conservative political establishments.

Belinda wrote: ↑March 21st, 2024, 10:32 am

Gertie wrote: ↑March 19th, 2024, 12:49 pm Belindi

I understand that zionism is a nineteenth century invention that was deliberately inserted into Judaism. However is there something Scriptural that perpetuates the "Promised Land" notion that I learned about long ago at school, as a Christian child.
Moreover I wonder if the promised land myth is common to most if not all religions or if it applies only to those cultures that colonise and own land.

We have a pretty good history (at least partly mythologised)  of the Jewish people as an ethno-religious tribal group.  I don't know how common it was in the times of the ancient Hebrews, but they had a sad record of being invaded and occupied, or exiled and enslaved by their invaders.   They did a  bit of that themselves too.  Their ''Promised Land'' was Canaan, it was promised by Yahweh to Abraham and his descendents, and it's where Moses led the Jews to after exile in Egypt.  

Jerusalem was made the site for Solomon's original  Temple, which contained the Holy of Holies,  a sort of holiday home for Yahweh's visits to his Chosen People. Babylonian invaders destroyed Solomon's Temple, but it was re-built, and the Second Temple was at the centre of the great Jewish religious festivals - like how Jesus came to Jerusalem for the Passover and turned over the outer Temple money-lenders' tables causing a  ruckus- the rest as they say, is Christianity.  The Romans destroyed the Second Temple during a rebellion a bit after Jesus' time (around the time of the first Gospel, Mark's, in AD 70), causing yet more dispersion, but the ruins are still venerated. Anyway, one way or another the Jewish diaspora made them an ethno-religion of immigrants dispersed all over the place.  And they were often treated with suspicion and animosity as immigrants still are, with the extra burden of being the 'Christ killers'.  

Lots of  myths grew up about Jews as the immigrant 'other', like the medieval  'Blood Libel' that they sacrificed Christian babies in rituals,  and the cursed Wandering Jew.  And there are more trendy ones like the  Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, going back at least to The Protocols of Zion.  And today when you see neo-fascists and anti-immigrant marchers chanting 'They will not replace us' and 'Blood and Soil'  they're directly mimicking Nazi nationalists.

Zionism is understandable given that history, and finally the genocidal displacement of WWII led to Britain deciding to give a chunk of modern day Palestine to the Jews.   Like you do.   Jerusalem is still the holiest place on earth for Christians and Jews, and Mohammed has some important connection too, and the sacred Dome of the Rock Islamic temple was built on the old Hebrew Temple Mount (rude!). 

So Jerusalem in particular is a religious as well as territorial hot potato.  You also have a bunch of  evangelical Christians who've convinced themselves that it's prophesied Jesus's second coming can only happen when the Jews re-occupy the Promised Land.  These are Christian Zionists.  I don't know how much sway they have in American politics, but it doesn't help. Biden is a disgrace in his own right. And Trump moved the American Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as an FU to Palestine, as was his Jewish son-in-law's proposed 'peace plan'. The same bloke now in the midst of a genocide -

''Jared Kushner has praised the “very valuable” potential of Gaza’s “waterfront property” and suggested Israel should remove civilians while it “cleans up” the strip.

The former property dealer, married to Donald Trump’s daughter Ivanka, made the comments in an interview at Harvard University on 8 March.''

- Guardian. 

Thanks Gertie. I read the article several times.

Hi Belindi, just to clarify that's my own attempt at a relevant potted history - not to be taken as 'gospel' . I studied the Old Testament and have retained an interest in theology. Only the last two lines about the ghoul Kushner are quoted from The Guardian. (Ironically The Guardian site often deletes my comments on the current genocide!).

I understand from the article how the Promised Land myth pertains to Judaism and that the myth is justifiable for Jews by Jahweh's propensity for helping Jews to settle and prosper. I also understand that not every Christian nation is bent on colonising foreign lands.

Right. I'd say by and large trade has superceded invasion as an obviously better way of getting your hands on other peeps' resources, and that if you have trade dominance you can 'peacefully' exploit. The Middle East sits on a ton of oil, which keeps dominant interests greedy eyes' fixed on it. Giant multinationals are the new colonisers. When 'we' invaded Iraq, the idea was it would be ''settled'' by our corporations.

However I still think that established sects of Judeo-Christianity such as the Church of England, and RC , are proponents of colonialism whenever colonialism would be to the advantage of the establishment.

How do you mean?

Moreover I think that we could fit statistics of established religious affiliation , political afilliation, and preferred moral system into a single mind set which pertains to conservative political establishments.

I think you're broadly right.

Gertie wrote: ↑March 21st, 2024, 5:11 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑March 21st, 2024, 10:32 am

Gertie wrote: ↑March 19th, 2024, 12:49 pm Belindi

I understand that zionism is a nineteenth century invention that was deliberately inserted into Judaism. However is there something Scriptural that perpetuates the "Promised Land" notion that I learned about long ago at school, as a Christian child.
Moreover I wonder if the promised land myth is common to most if not all religions or if it applies only to those cultures that colonise and own land.

We have a pretty good history (at least partly mythologised)  of the Jewish people as an ethno-religious tribal group.  I don't know how common it was in the times of the ancient Hebrews, but they had a sad record of being invaded and occupied, or exiled and enslaved by their invaders.   They did a  bit of that themselves too.  Their ''Promised Land'' was Canaan, it was promised by Yahweh to Abraham and his descendents, and it's where Moses led the Jews to after exile in Egypt.  

Jerusalem was made the site for Solomon's original  Temple, which contained the Holy of Holies,  a sort of holiday home for Yahweh's visits to his Chosen People. Babylonian invaders destroyed Solomon's Temple, but it was re-built, and the Second Temple was at the centre of the great Jewish religious festivals - like how Jesus came to Jerusalem for the Passover and turned over the outer Temple money-lenders' tables causing a  ruckus- the rest as they say, is Christianity.  The Romans destroyed the Second Temple during a rebellion a bit after Jesus' time (around the time of the first Gospel, Mark's, in AD 70), causing yet more dispersion, but the ruins are still venerated. Anyway, one way or another the Jewish diaspora made them an ethno-religion of immigrants dispersed all over the place.  And they were often treated with suspicion and animosity as immigrants still are, with the extra burden of being the 'Christ killers'.  

Lots of  myths grew up about Jews as the immigrant 'other', like the medieval  'Blood Libel' that they sacrificed Christian babies in rituals,  and the cursed Wandering Jew.  And there are more trendy ones like the  Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, going back at least to The Protocols of Zion.  And today when you see neo-fascists and anti-immigrant marchers chanting 'They will not replace us' and 'Blood and Soil'  they're directly mimicking Nazi nationalists.

Zionism is understandable given that history, and finally the genocidal displacement of WWII led to Britain deciding to give a chunk of modern day Palestine to the Jews.   Like you do.   Jerusalem is still the holiest place on earth for Christians and Jews, and Mohammed has some important connection too, and the sacred Dome of the Rock Islamic temple was built on the old Hebrew Temple Mount (rude!). 

So Jerusalem in particular is a religious as well as territorial hot potato.  You also have a bunch of  evangelical Christians who've convinced themselves that it's prophesied Jesus's second coming can only happen when the Jews re-occupy the Promised Land.  These are Christian Zionists.  I don't know how much sway they have in American politics, but it doesn't help. Biden is a disgrace in his own right. And Trump moved the American Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as an FU to Palestine, as was his Jewish son-in-law's proposed 'peace plan'. The same bloke now in the midst of a genocide -

''Jared Kushner has praised the “very valuable” potential of Gaza’s “waterfront property” and suggested Israel should remove civilians while it “cleans up” the strip.

The former property dealer, married to Donald Trump’s daughter Ivanka, made the comments in an interview at Harvard University on 8 March.''

- Guardian. 

Thanks Gertie. I read the article several times.

Hi Belindi, just to clarify that's my own attempt at a relevant potted history - not to be taken as 'gospel' . I studied the Old Testament and have retained an interest in theology. Only the last two lines about the ghoul Kushner are quoted from The Guardian. (Ironically The Guardian site often deletes my comments on the current genocide!).

I understand from the article how the Promised Land myth pertains to Judaism and that the myth is justifiable for Jews by Jahweh's propensity for helping Jews to settle and prosper. I also understand that not every Christian nation is bent on colonising foreign lands.

Right. I'd say by and large trade has superceded invasion as an obviously better way of getting your hands on other peeps' resources, and that if you have trade dominance you can 'peacefully' exploit. The Middle East sits on a ton of oil, which keeps dominant interests greedy eyes' fixed on it. Giant multinationals are the new colonisers. When 'we' invaded Iraq, the idea was it would be ''settled'' by our corporations.

However I still think that established sects of Judeo-Christianity such as the Church of England, and RC , are proponents of colonialism whenever colonialism would be to the advantage of the establishment.

How do you mean?

Moreover I think that we could fit statistics of established religious affiliation , political afilliation, and preferred moral system into a single mind set which pertains to conservative political establishments.

I think you're broadly right.

Thanks for your elucidation. I cannot imagine why The Guardian would delete your comments.
What I mean by my second last paragraph is unclear because my thinking on the topic is a little muddled, and that is why I read others' posts, to try to find ideas that make sense to me.

The connection between my last paragraph and the penultimate one is that Judeo-Christianity is strongly doctrinal especially its moral code. Doctrines can be and are interpreted liberally or conservatively , and the several interpretations are reflected in the various religious dogmas of the different sects. Insofar as I'm a follower of Jesus of Nazareth I interpret the Gospels liberally , bearing in mind that Jesus of Nazareth was a human being not a supernatural god. So people today fall into one of two broad categories: The followers of old and often outworn traditions, or dissenters to old traditions i.e. liberals and pragmatists.

These two categories of moral mind sets are reflected by political parties and their respective home and foreign policies.
By the way, is it true that in the USA there is no proper Labour party , and US Democrats are equivalent to UK Conservatives?

Referring to your reply to me regarding trade. Can we accept that trade brings peace as much as it brings exploitation? What is it exactly about multi -national corporations that is 'unchristianly' ?
Is there a modern interpretation of the story of Jesus and the money changers in the Temple and their misuse of traditional Jewish temple behaviour ? I admire Jesus for his initiative to clean up traditional Judaism when some Jews profiteered from the Roman occupation.

The connection between the political situation in Palestine at the time of Jesus, and the exploitation of peoples in modern times is not that Jews are all guilty but that some people of all ethnicities are not attached to the Golden Rule.

Apparently London is becoming unsafe for Jewish people. That's wild.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑March 20th, 2024, 4:30 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 20th, 2024, 10:20 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑March 19th, 2024, 12:47 pm Money for the UNRWA is money for Palestine.

UNRWA is surely about providing relief, as in "United Nations Relief and Works Agency"? The money is to buy food and water for hungry and thirsty people.

It was but Hamas has been taking aid from that agency for some time. https://unwatch.org/evidence-of-unrwa-a ... tober-7th/

- UNRWA members participated in the attack

- UNRWA aid bags in the subterranean hideout of Hamas Gaza chief Yahya Sinwar

- UNRWA supplies premises, electricity to Hamas

- UNRWA aid used by Hamas

- UNRWA facilities used for Hamas weapons storage

- UNRWA aid stolen by Hamas

- UNRWA aid bags used by Hamas to store equipment

- UN equipment used by Hamas. UN vests were found together with ammunition and explosives, some inside UNRWA aid bags

- UNRWA school used as base to fire weapons

- Hamas fires rockets from near UN facility

- Hamas tunnel located near UNRWA school

Have *any* of these accusations been substantiated with evidence?

Good_Egg wrote: ↑March 21st, 2024, 5:17 am Unfortunately there seems to be a big lack of clarity in what you think discrimination consists of...

If you think that all nations have a right to defend themselves except Israel, then you are applying a double standard.

The people who lose from that double standard are those who count the state of Israel as their homeland.

That is discrimination against Jews.

Er, no. Even if it was true, it would be discrimination against Israelis. Your example describes how the people of a nation are discriminated against. This is not religion-based, so it can't be anti-Jewish, can it? "Unfortunately there seems to be a big lack of clarity in what you think discrimination consists of..."?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2024, 9:03 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑March 20th, 2024, 4:30 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 20th, 2024, 10:20 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑March 19th, 2024, 12:47 pm Money for the UNRWA is money for Palestine.

UNRWA is surely about providing relief, as in "United Nations Relief and Works Agency"? The money is to buy food and water for hungry and thirsty people.

It was but Hamas has been taking aid from that agency for some time. https://unwatch.org/evidence-of-unrwa-a ... tober-7th/

- UNRWA members participated in the attack

- UNRWA aid bags in the subterranean hideout of Hamas Gaza chief Yahya Sinwar

- UNRWA supplies premises, electricity to Hamas

- UNRWA aid used by Hamas

- UNRWA facilities used for Hamas weapons storage

- UNRWA aid stolen by Hamas

- UNRWA aid bags used by Hamas to store equipment

- UN equipment used by Hamas. UN vests were found together with ammunition and explosives, some inside UNRWA aid bags

- UNRWA school used as base to fire weapons

- Hamas fires rockets from near UN facility

- Hamas tunnel located near UNRWA school

Have *any* of these accusations been substantiated with evidence?

Apparently all have been but you seem disinclined to believe anything that contradicts your narrative. Have you tried your own research? I decided to check one at random - Hamas firing from UN facility: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-pho ... g-schools/

Hamas' use of U.N. buildings for its weapons and fighters is not new. During the group's last major war with Israel, between 2012 and 2014, a U.N. inquiry found weapons had been placed inside an UNRWA school in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip and that it was highly likely that an unidentified Palestinian armed group could have used the school premises to launch attacks.

In the same 2015 report, then-Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said that he was "dismayed that Palestinian militant groups would put United Nations schools at risk by using them to hide their arms."

I note that London is now the most anti-Semitic place in the western world. British Jews are increasingly living in fear. No wonder you don't seem to see anti-Semitism, which has seemingly (and ironically) been normalised in the UK.

The racism has been so intense that many British Jews are now moving out, fearing a repeat of Germany. In the 1930s, German Jews were sure, despite rising anti-Semitism, that the system would protect them. By the time they realised how bad things really were, it was too late for many, and millions were killed. Why is the UK doing this to itself?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2024, 9:11 am Even if it was true, it would be discrimination against Israelis. Your example describes how the people of a nation are discriminated against. This is not religion-based, so it can't be anti-Jewish, can it?

You seem to be under the delusion that "Jew" refers only to a religion.

Judaism is a religion - the religion of the Jews. "Jewish" refers to a race and their culture. There are Jewish atheists.

Part of Jewish culture is an attachment to their historic homeland. You may not like that fact. But if you try telling a Jewish person "I may be prejudiced against Israel, but that's nothing to do with you because you're not an Israeli citizen" they won't accept that.

I'd put it that an expatriate Frenchman feels the pain and insult of any bias against France. That part of Jewish culture is to see all Jews as a diaspora, as displaced Israelis. ( From the original Israel which the modern state recreates). But I'm not sure that's an adequate comparison.

You may of course say that it is not your intention to discriminate against racially/culturally Jewish people in Europe, in America, in Africa. I fully believe that. Your intention is to criticize only Israeli voters and the government they elect.

But that comes back to the point you're avoiding. You're asserting that it is possible to discriminate by accident. That the nature of discrimination is that someone is discriminated against if they're on the wrong side, the negative side, of a double standard, regardless of the intent or motivation of the person holding that double standard.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2024, 3:52 pm I note that London is now the most anti-Semitic place in the western world.

This was a sentiment voiced by an Israeli minister, who is hardly an objective source?

‘Woke’ London is most anti-Semitic city in the West, says Israeli minister

I think anti-Semitism — anti-Jewish discrimination — is wrong, but widespread. Around 15% of people, in many countries, not just London or the UK, have anti-Semitic feelings. These feelings were expressed more strongly following the October attack on Israel. This is something all decent people should oppose, IMO, and most do, IME.

Good_Egg wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2024, 5:07 am You seem to be under the delusion that "Jew" refers only to a religion.

Judaism is a religion - the religion of the Jews. "Jewish" refers to a race and their culture.

The word "race", and the meaning it is used to carry in the majority of cases, is a misnomer. It doesn't really exist. Of course there are tribal distinctions, although these are less obvious these days, with global travel being the norm for many people. But there is no Jewish "race" any more than people with dark brown skin are a 'race'.

We humans have, and belong to, social groupings of all sizes, from families to nations, and they fulfil many purposes. But they are solely the creation of human culture, and not any kind of genetic or biological thing.

Populations of any animal, including humans, develop minor commonalities not shared by more remote neighbours. This is very obvious in the evolution examples of isolated lands, where genetic drift takes place within the population. This is a normal consequence of isolation. And it can create new species, but only after many generations, when a great deal of time has passed. Humans haven't been around as a species long enough for this to take place in any but the most minor ways.

Some Jews choose to emphasise their tribal origins, with the ancient Semites being mentioned most often. Similarly, I am Celtic, and Anglo-Saxon too; the only difference is that I don't see a reason to say so very often.

Reference to "race" does little but harm. "Race", in the sense it is usually used, does not exist.

************************

And having said all that, let me say clearly that I support the existence, and the maintenance, of cultural differences across the world. These differences are a valuable human asset that we should (IMO) safeguard. This applies to Jewish culture just as it applies to Welsh or Uighur culture.

Good_Egg wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2024, 5:07 am You're asserting that it is possible to discriminate by accident.

I'm not really "asserting" it, but it does seem to be the case.

Just as one can murder "by accident". In the UK we have a separate word for it: "manslaughter" instead of (intentional) "murder". The US also has this difference, although I can't remember what they call it. Other countries do too. I can put sugar in your coffee, forgetting you don't take sugar, and this too is "by accident". Not all the consequences of our actions are expected or intended; we're human. That's how humans are.

So, in the same way that we can or could do almost anything by accident, it would seem silly to claim that discrimination cannot occur by accident.

What is it about this that you disagree with?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑March 17th, 2024, 7:10 pm Wrong again. It's just logic, observing the situation.
There is nothing special about this conflict. There are others that are worse, but this one takes priority due to the influence of the still-powerful anti-Semitic movements.

A unfortunate side effect of the Israeli war on humanity in Gaza and the understandable resulting reaction by many around the world, is that it gives cover for actual antisemitic crazies to wreak havoc on Jews not associated directly with the Israeli conflict. This allows the Zionists to claim that all attacks on them are attacks on all Jews.

I don't want to hijack this thread with a discussion of social media so I will start another. I think there is something special about this Genocide in Gaza. It is very different from other crimes against humanity.

I note that, in this and the other Israel-related topic, there is more than considered discussion; there is lots of feeling too. And some of it is bad feeling, and unfriendly attitudes that don't sit well with me. I have no such feelings toward any contributor here, and I think it would benefit our discussions overall if we could all make an effort to understand that we are all here to discuss, exchange views, and maybe even learn?

I imagine Scott would appreciate this too.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2024, 3:52 pm
I note that London is now the most anti-Semitic place in the western world.

What utter nonsense.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2024, 11:13 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑March 22nd, 2024, 3:52 pm
I note that London is now the most anti-Semitic place in the western world.

What utter nonsense.

Wrong again. I don't expect you to admit it. You never have in all these years of making mistakes on this forum.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-rec ... 024-02-15/

LONDON, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Britain recorded thousands of antisemitic incidents after the outbreak of war between Israel and Hamas in October, making 2023 the worst year for UK antisemitism since 1984, when Jewish advisory body CST began recording such data, it said on Thursday.
The number of antisemitic incidents across the country reached 4,103, more than twice the figure in 2022, amid a surge of threats, hate speech, violence and damage to Jewish institutions and property, the Community Security Trust said.

The CST, which advises Britain's estimated 280,000 Jews on security matters, said two-thirds of those incidents occurred on or after Oct. 7, when Hamas militants rampaged through southern Israel, killing 1,200 people and taking around 250 hostage.

That rise appeared, at least initially, to reflect a celebration of Hamas' attacks rather than anger at Israel's military reprisals in Gaza, the CST said its data suggested. The conflict has left at least 28,000 Palestinians dead, according to the Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza, which does not provide a breakdown for combatant deaths.

The surge recorded after Oct. 7 alone exceeded all previous annual totals, said the CST, which has been recording antisemitic incidents in Britain for 40 years.

Can you name a more anti-Semitic place in the western world?