Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sy Borg]

However, thanks to the lobbying and connections of the arms industry, rules are maintained so as to maximise their profits.

Then the media affiliated with the arms industry pushes to little people to fight for their profits by framing the Amendment as protecting democracy. The irony is that gun advocates' preferred candidate recently tried to kill off American democracy, and they continue to support him.

The gun debate is not in any way about defending democracy - that much has been made clear. Yet people persist is spreading this myth, as though 2020 didn't happen.

So, A., otherwise "intelligent" people have been unable to formulate a winning argument that can overcome a marketing strategy, and

B. "little people" are too stupid to submit your wisdom?

This disgusting arrogance is why 300-million law abiding citizens are not only ignoring you, but do not trust you, in my humble opinion. When you make people that you disagree with, your inferior enemy, you shouldn't be surprised when the see you as their despotic enemy.

You are not speaking rationally. Content? Logic? Rupert Murdoch is on the board of directors of a major weapons manufacturing company - United Technologies. He also sits on the board of fossil fuel giant, Genie Energy. His media consistently takes a pro fossil fuel and pro-war stance, being the biggest booster of the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions. I suppose you think that's fine.

Unless you can pull yourself together to make a serious reply, rather than giving me the above whiny piece of prissy political correctness, then there's no point in me, or others, wasting our time as being targets of your ugly invective.

It appears that you and those of your ilk see everyone as your "despotic enemies", and that is EXACTLY the problem. Paranoia and neurosis run wild.

[Robert66]

Last American

I tried to send you a private message yesterday but I see it didn't work. I don't know what I did wrong - anyway I will try again now.

(* Tried again but can't reply to your PM - so here it is instead:)

I too get frustrated when arrogance prevents proper debate. I used to be arrogant - thinking why are these people unable to see that my point of view is correct - until I grew up and learned that everyone has different circumstances and reasons for their points of view and actions.

Now I just try to learn about different ways, and try (when I'm not being still too arrogant) to examine my own responses.

I started the thread about guns because on another thread there were people arguing that everyone should have a gun. My view is that when you have so many guns in a society you are bound to have accidents and mistakes, and mental illness episodes, which lead to deaths.

From your responses I have been thinking more about the role of what you might call "societal breakdown" leading to gun misuse.

Still I believe there are certain steps which could be taken which would reduce the number of gun deaths. I have listed some of these in a recent post. They are based on the recent (post-1997) effects of gun law reform in Australia, where I live.

I appreciate there are significant differences between Australia and USA, however we too are a federation of states, and those states had to conform to the federal government's will for the enactment of gun reform legislation. Of course this would be much more difficult with 50 states. But we are talking about a nation which decided to, and then put man on the moon.

[Sy Borg]

Robert, the arrogance lies with those who casually throw epithets at people, just because they dared to disagree.

If you can find a way to speak about the issue rather than attacking me for having the temerity to disagree with you, you might notice that I have made some fair and reasonable points - and they remain unaddressed because you and TLA seem only capable of attacking me personally. You have no real comeback, only attacks.

So far, your diversionary response is that I am "disgusting" and "arrogant". Falling back into ad homs is an admission of defeat, which is no surprise because the case you support can only be supported via dirty tactics, as you and Last American have used on me.

[Sy Borg]

Given the current state of the US, I think I'd keep a gun in reserve myself, in case of societal breakdown and lawlessness.

Still it would be refreshing for gun advocates to admit that their stance is because they either 1) simply like guns or 2) they see a dim future and they are afraid.

However, the old claims that guns are needed to fight rogue governments are ridiculous in this day and age. Consider how families would be living if they are on the run from a technologically enabled government, mounting an armed civil resistance.

Some might think that falling into an Afghan lifestyle is worth it; that would be the price of civil war. I suspect that, if it happened, the intensity of the unfolding nightmare would not be anticipated. So let's put aside this false argument that guns protect people from the government. If you are pro unrestricted gun ownership without checks, then you either like guns or you are afraid, but you are not a freedom fighter.

[-TheLastAmerican]

Sy Borg

You should stand in front of a mirror and read all what you just wrote to me, to yourself.

Respectfully,

[Robert66]

Robert, the arrogance lies with those who casually throw epithets at people, just because they dared to disagree.

If you can find a way to speak about the issue rather than attacking me for having the temerity to disagree with you, you might notice that I have made some fair and reasonable points - and they remain unaddressed because you and TLA seem only capable of attacking me personally. You have no real comeback, only attacks.

So far, your diversionary response is that I am "disgusting" and "arrogant". Falling back into ad homs is an admission of defeat, which is no surprise because the case you support can only be supported via dirty tactics, as you and Last American have used on me.

Not sure where I attacked you, and can't remember using the word "disgusting". In fact I can't see how I am in disagreement with you at all.

[-TheLastAmerican]

Last American

I tried to send you a private message yesterday but I see it didn't work. I don't know what I did wrong - anyway I will try again now.

(* Tried again but can't reply to your PM - so here it is instead:)

I too get frustrated when arrogance prevents proper debate. I used to be arrogant - thinking why are these people unable to see that my point of view is correct - until I grew up and learned that everyone has different circumstances and reasons for their points of view and actions.

Now I just try to learn about different ways, and try (when I'm not being still too arrogant) to examine my own responses.

I started the thread about guns because on another thread there were people arguing that everyone should have a gun. My view is that when you have so many guns in a society you are bound to have accidents and mistakes, and mental illness episodes, which lead to deaths.

From your responses I have been thinking more about the role of what you might call "societal breakdown" leading to gun misuse.

Still I believe there are certain steps which could be taken which would reduce the number of gun deaths. I have listed some of these in a recent post. They are based on the recent (post-1997) effects of gun law reform in Australia, where I live.

I appreciate there are significant differences between Australia and USA, however we too are a federation of states, and those states had to conform to the federal government's will for the enactment of gun reform legislation. Of course this would be much more difficult with 50 states. But we are talking about a nation which decided to, and then put man on the moon.

Robert,

I had private messaging disabled and had forgotten I had done so when I messaged you. My apologies.

I believe that there are many issues that are driving the increasing acquisition of firearms by private Citizens in America. Let me see if I can describe, briefly, what I believe are a few of the primary issues. I will try to focus on causes rather than symptoms, as seem to be the sole focus of debates like these, and that I find exasperating.

Washington DC is completely broken - I believe, beyond repair - and it is only a matter of time before America erupts. We are lied to by the side that hates us (yes, hate is absolutely the proper word), and we are lied to by the representatives we send to Washington to represent our views, with exception of very few individuals. Therefore, many of us simply do not trust our lawmakers to do anything they say - much less enforce firearms laws that are already on the books, which I am not going to list because it would take all day. However, it already is illegal for anyone with mental problems to own firearms in America but the second you try to enforce that law the left will erupt about privacy and violating their Rights... and it is already illegal to to commit murder, except in defense of self or others in the face of a reasonable belief of harm.

Elsewhere in America, violent riots that include outright cold-blooded murder and destruction are painted as peaceful protests and are met with smug laughter by the left while rational law abiding citizens that would never assemble and murder shop owners or loot and burn property to the ground - for any reason - become the excuse for, and the political target of, the anarchy. This is supported fully by the very same political left and their voters that keep telling us that society will be safer if only WE would surrender our Rights.

The nuclear family has been destroyed. In my opinion, a child NEEDS the influence of a moral mother AND a moral father, to teach their children, at the very least, to want to be moral people. Men and women ARE different - by nature - and each bring DIFFERENT qualities to raising children, in rational societies. Even children know this, innately. But we have a socialist left that tells us there is no difference between men and women and that women are perfectly capable of raising sound citizens without the need for a strong responsible male figure, and that encourages and supports the very behaviors that have produced children that are psychopaths that will shoot up school full of innocent 6-years olds, because they woke up mad. FFS there are young people today that believe it is just to slaughter a few people because they can't get laid!

I could go on but unfortunately, I already know that it is pointless - not to you personally - but to the larger community that will brush all of this aside and demand that I surrender my Right to solve the problems that they created directly or by blind support.

The problems in America are not being caused by Law Abiding Citizens or little people, and it will be a very long time before they acquiesce to surrendering their Rights to satisfy what they perceive as the irrational emotion driven demands of the people they see as responsible for the destruction of their communities.

The bottom line is that myself, and many like me, simply do not trust progressive liberals to honor their promises, on any level. Furthermore, America is no longer the Country that put the first man on the moon - though I wish it was.

A' ho

[Sy Borg]

TLA, if you most trust Donald Trump and the Republicans to tell you the truth, that says all anyone needs to know about your views on any issue, which will be in absolute lockstep with your "allies". In fact, to disagree is to be called "disgusting".

Of course, throughout history, people have known that politicians aren't to be trusted. Just that, today, Americans think that they need to destroy their system of government in response. Trumpists believe they are saving America when they are, in fact, destroying it. I wouldn't care, given that empires come and go, just that when the Republicans finally destroy American democracy and take power permanently - which appears likely the way things are going - that will harm Australia too.

[-TheLastAmerican]

TLA, if you most trust Donald Trump and the Republicans to tell you the truth, that says all anyone needs to know about your views on any issue, which will be in absolute lockstep with your "allies". In fact, to disagree is to be called "disgusting".

Of course, throughout history, people have known that politicians aren't to be trusted. Just that, today, Americans think that they need to destroy their system of government in response. Trumpists believe they are saving America when they are, in fact, destroying it. I wouldn't care, given that empires come and go, just that when the Republicans finally destroy American democracy and take power permanently - which appears likely the way things are going - that will harm Australia too.

Please, STOP stalking and insulting me. I made no mention whatsoever about Donald Trump.

[Sy Borg]

Robert, the arrogance lies with those who casually throw epithets at people, just because they dared to disagree.

If you can find a way to speak about the issue rather than attacking me for having the temerity to disagree with you, you might notice that I have made some fair and reasonable points - and they remain unaddressed because you and TLA seem only capable of attacking me personally. You have no real comeback, only attacks.

So far, your diversionary response is that I am "disgusting" and "arrogant". Falling back into ad homs is an admission of defeat, which is no surprise because the case you support can only be supported via dirty tactics, as you and Last American have used on me.

Not sure where I attacked you, and can't remember using the word "disgusting". In fact I can't see how I am in disagreement with you at all.

You bought into TLA's snowflakey claim that I was being "disgustingly arrogant", simply because I noted how the masses are being played by the fossil fuel and arms industry lobbies. And what of his claim that "leftists" object to mental health checks for gun ownership, as if a few insane extremists represent the entire left.

This issue has nothing to do with arrogance, it's about the US harming itself with self-defeating guns policies.

[Sy Borg]

TLA, if you most trust Donald Trump and the Republicans to tell you the truth, that says all anyone needs to know about your views on any issue, which will be in absolute lockstep with your "allies". In fact, to disagree is to be called "disgusting".

Of course, throughout history, people have known that politicians aren't to be trusted. Just that, today, Americans think that they need to destroy their system of government in response. Trumpists believe they are saving America when they are, in fact, destroying it. I wouldn't care, given that empires come and go, just that when the Republicans finally destroy American democracy and take power permanently - which appears likely the way things are going - that will harm Australia too.

Please, STOP stalking and insulting me. I made no mention whatsoever about Donald Trump.

You call me "disgustingly arrogant" and I have not insulted you at all, and you have the hide to complain?

You provided no useful content, no sensible counters to my points. All you gave were insults and rants about the world (boo hoo!). Then you lied that I has insulted you and complained when called out on your aggression.

How about addressing the content of my posts instead of attacking me personally?

[-TheLastAmerican]

You bought into TLA's snowflakey claim that I was being "disgustingly arrogant", simply because I noted how the masses are being played by the fossil fuel and arms industry lobbies. And what of his claim that "leftists" object to mental health checks for gun ownership, as if a few insane extremists represent the entire left.

This issue has nothing to do with arrogance, it's about the US harming itself with self-defeating guns policies.

Yet, a few insane extremest represent every Law Abiding Gun gun owner in America...

[Sy Borg]

You bought into TLA's snowflakey claim that I was being "disgustingly arrogant", simply because I noted how the masses are being played by the fossil fuel and arms industry lobbies. And what of his claim that "leftists" object to mental health checks for gun ownership, as if a few insane extremists represent the entire left.

This issue has nothing to do with arrogance, it's about the US harming itself with self-defeating guns policies.

Yet, a few insane extremest represent every Law Abiding Gun gun owner in America...

No, the statistics tell the story perfectly well of the US's self-defeating policies. Nothing to do with gun extremists.

[Robert66]

Robert, the arrogance lies with those who casually throw epithets at people, just because they dared to disagree.

If you can find a way to speak about the issue rather than attacking me for having the temerity to disagree with you, you might notice that I have made some fair and reasonable points - and they remain unaddressed because you and TLA seem only capable of attacking me personally. You have no real comeback, only attacks.

So far, your diversionary response is that I am "disgusting" and "arrogant". Falling back into ad homs is an admission of defeat, which is no surprise because the case you support can only be supported via dirty tactics, as you and Last American have used on me.

Not sure where I attacked you, and can't remember using the word "disgusting". In fact I can't see how I am in disagreement with you at all.

You bought into TLA's snowflakey claim that I was being "disgustingly arrogant", simply because I noted how the masses are being played by the fossil fuel and arms industry lobbies. And what of his claim that "leftists" object to mental health checks for gun ownership, as if a few insane extremists represent the entire left.

This issue has nothing to do with arrogance, it's about the US harming itself with self-defeating guns policies.

I am very sorry you feel that way. I certainly don't think you are disgustingly arrogant. If anything I consider that I have been more arrogant than most, something I am trying to avoid now.

As for buying into etc, you could check what I have written to see that is not true. I thanked TheLastAmerican for the link to a very informative article,and I am interested in his views, but that doesn't mean I buy into his claims.

I don't know the truth about the leftist claims you mention - they seem fictitious or at least overblown to me. Mental health checking prior to attempted gun purchases is an area that definitely needs more attention in the gun debate. That is why I listed such checking along with other reasonable steps which could at least be attempted as a way of reducing gun deaths.

I wonder if I would own or carry a gun if I lived in the US, and I am glad I don't feel any pressure to make that choice.

[Sy Borg]

I wonder if I would own or carry a gun if I lived in the US, and I am glad I don't feel any pressure to make that choice.

It would depend on where you lived, I expect.

Ironic that humans have worked so hard to escape the dangers of the wild and then they allow their urban environments to become ever more dangerous.