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Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: April 26th, 2020, 9:48 am
by Pattern-chaser
Consul wrote: April 25th, 2020, 3:19 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 25th, 2020, 12:18 pmIf plants have minds, they would be minds developed/evolved in the context of a plant, as opposed to a primate. Any similarities between a plant mind and a human one would likely be coincidental. A plant mind, if there is such a thing, might not even be recognisable as a mind by a primate. If this speculation is to go anywhere useful, perhaps we need to stop being so dismissive, and simply wonder about what might be, before we dismiss ideas with scorn and a lack of serious consideration.

I don't think any philosopher would be surprised to find, at some time in the future, that plants do not have minds in any comprehensible sense. But that discovery has not yet been made, or at least verified....
What exactly is a mind? What are the necessary conditions of having a mind or being a mental subject/subject of mentality?
A precise answer to this question is very hard to come by. Having phenomenal consciousness or being a subject of experience is surely sufficient, but is it also necessary?
I don't think there are any precise or exact answers to your questions, yet. This topic, and our knowledge of it, is not yet sufficiently mature for that. We are still at the stage of green and yellow hats (link), in de Bono's terms. Perhaps your black-hat contribution could more usefully be offered at a later stage of discussion?

Also, the OP asks a moral question. It even uses the word "moral" so that we will get the intended idea. So how is this moral question being warped into a scientific one? There is no precision or exactitude in moral/ethical philosophy, nor should there be. It isn't that type of subject. We are being asked whether plants should occupy, in our minds, a morally-similar position to that of animals. It's an interesting question, if not a scientific one. 🤔🤔🤔

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: April 27th, 2020, 10:46 am
by Consul
arjand wrote: April 25th, 2020, 6:01 amIs there a sign/clue as of today that science may be on the right track to discover an answer? As it appears, one of the main concerns from an increasing amount of mainstream neuroscientists is that they have absolutely no idea how to continue to look for an answer, thereby increasingly looking at philosophy to continue the quest.
The neuroscientists do have ideas: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cons ... roscience/

By the way, I think philosophy is (or ought to be) continuous with theoretical science. It's the most theoretical and least empirical part of our inquiry into reality, being the realm of theoretical speculation and conjecture.
arjand wrote: April 25th, 2020, 6:01 amNeutrinos can morph, increasing their mass up to 3000x in size (maybe more, recently a fourth heavy weight flavor was discovered) which is why the particle is called a "Ghost Particle". What could explain an act out of itself by a particle so small that it can pass straight through the core of the Sun? Perhaps it is a clue for the origin of intelligence/life.
I don't think so, because neutrinos aren't parts of the atoms and molecules of which living organisms are composed.
arjand wrote: April 25th, 2020, 6:01 amNeutrinos
Consul wrote: April 24th, 2020, 10:17 amThere are many non- and prehuman forms of consciousness; but they all occur within the animal kingdom.
What I intended to indicate is that until now science can only provide evidence for the manifestation of consciousness, not its origin. If the origin of consciousness precedes the human then it could have certain implications that could be relevant for inter-species morality. For example, from certain perspectives, the human could be seen on a same level as that of other species.
The distribution of consciousness in nature is a crucial question, and the most plausible general answer is that it naturally occurs only among species of animals (with brains).
arjand wrote: April 25th, 2020, 6:01 amThe human concept 'self' may not be translatable to a plant. By using a certain philosophical definition of the concept 'self', it may be possible to describe an applicable concept.
If selves are psychological subjects, subjects of mentality or experientiality, then the concept of a self is generally applicable to all physical objects with mental or experiential properties.
(If the concept of mentality is defined broadly, so that it's not identical with the concept of experientiality, then a psychological or mental subject isn't necessarily a phenomenological or experiential, experiencing subject.)
arjand wrote: April 25th, 2020, 6:01 amWith regard to the requirement of a nervous system, some recent research is indicating that some human emotions and behavior originates from bacteria in the gut.

Collective unconscious: How gut microbes shape human behavior
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5615000655

What is the true purpose of emotions? While there can be arguments from a mere functional perspective, as it appears to me, emotions are relative to what lays beyond what can be proven to exist empirically. There is a quality involved by which it may be plausible to consider that complex neurological processes are not required to explain emotions per se, i.e. as an origin for emotions. If emotions originate from a factor other than complex neurobiology, with complex neurobiology merely being an extension, then it could become plausible to consider that plants without an animal brain can poses consciousness and a form of 'self'.
That emotions (qua subjective feelings or moods) are influenced by extracerebral physiological processes doesn't mean that they have an extracerebral origin, that the processes immediately causing or constituting them aren't brain-internal neurological processes.
arjand wrote: April 25th, 2020, 6:01 am What is the purpose of life? Plants could be seen as a manifestation of a fulfillment of the purpose of life and by the inability to answer the question what their purpose could be, especially from an outsiders perspective, perhaps they should be provided with a base level of respect. (i.e. respect for their 'spirit')

My main argument for plant morality is that purpose could be vital for plants and nature to prosper, which in turn enables the human to prosper into the farther future (+10,000 years). If plant morality is applicable or even essential, it may be best to start investigating it a.s.a.p.
Plants can certainly be ethical objects, objects of ethical concern, especially in the context of environmental ethics; but they aren't ethical subjects, because they aren't psychological subjects.

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: April 28th, 2020, 9:53 am
by Pattern-chaser
Consul wrote: April 27th, 2020, 10:46 am The distribution of consciousness in nature is a crucial question, and the most plausible general answer is that it naturally occurs only among species of animals (with brains).
Why is that the most "plausible" answer? The exact nature of consciousness is not something we can yet define precisely, I don't think. So I find it hard to see why an animal brain should be the most plausible platform for consciousness. Perhaps it is, but to claim so implies some kind of evidence, no?

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: April 28th, 2020, 10:51 am
by Terrapin Station
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 28th, 2020, 9:53 am
Consul wrote: April 27th, 2020, 10:46 am The distribution of consciousness in nature is a crucial question, and the most plausible general answer is that it naturally occurs only among species of animals (with brains).
Why is that the most "plausible" answer? The exact nature of consciousness is not something we can yet define precisely, I don't think. So I find it hard to see why an animal brain should be the most plausible platform for consciousness. Perhaps it is, but to claim so implies some kind of evidence, no?
You don't believe that we have evidence that consciousness is correlated to brains?

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: April 28th, 2020, 12:43 pm
by psyreporter
Since the origin of consciousness is not known, the brains could be merely a tool to unlock the potential of consciousness while consciousness per se is not correlated to the brains.

What does it imply that human emotions and behavior are shown to originate from bacteria in the gut?

(2017) Understanding the emergence of microbial consciousness
Microorganisms demonstrate conscious-like intelligent behaviour.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29254105

(2016) Gut bacteria and the brain: Are we controlled by microbes?
Although the interaction between our brain and gut has been studied for years, its complexities run deeper than initially thought. It seems that our minds are, in some part, controlled by the bacteria in our bowels.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/312734

(2018) An Ancient Virus May Be Responsible for Human Consciousness
You've got an ancient virus in your brain. In fact, you've got an ancient virus at the very root of your conscious thought.
https://www.livescience.com/61627-ancie ... brain.html

If a bacteria or virus is proven to be conscious, it is evidence that plants are likely to possess a higher consciousness.

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: May 2nd, 2020, 9:45 am
by Pattern-chaser
arjand wrote: April 13th, 2020, 5:11 am Recent scientific discoveries increasingly indicate that plants are intelligent creatures that can "talk" to animals, including humans.

[...]

Questions:

1) Do plants deserve the same moral status as animals if plants are proven to be conscious and capable of meaningful interaction with humans?

2) What are the implications when plants are given the same moral status as animals?
I've been thinking about this topic, and the questions it raises. More specifically, I've been wondering about what lies behind these questions. If plants and animals are morally equivalent, what do we conclude from this? What is the use or purpose of the question "do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?"?

It seems to me that this question has to do with whether we humans consider ourselves entitled to (ab)use these living things, plants and animals alike. Isn't that what this moral equivalence would mean (to us)? Isn't it just about whether it's moral for us to eat them, or to kill them for other purposes (e.g. growing cotton for cloth, or using trees as building materials or fuel for fires)? And if this is so, doesn't it rather change the complexion of this topic, and the questions it asks?

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: May 2nd, 2020, 10:09 am
by Terrapin Station
arjand wrote: April 28th, 2020, 12:43 pm Since the origin of consciousness is not known, the brains could be merely a tool to unlock the potential of consciousness while consciousness per se is not correlated to the brains.

What does it imply that human emotions and behavior are shown to originate from bacteria in the gut?

(2017) Understanding the emergence of microbial consciousness
Microorganisms demonstrate conscious-like intelligent behaviour.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29254105

(2016) Gut bacteria and the brain: Are we controlled by microbes?
Although the interaction between our brain and gut has been studied for years, its complexities run deeper than initially thought. It seems that our minds are, in some part, controlled by the bacteria in our bowels.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/312734

(2018) An Ancient Virus May Be Responsible for Human Consciousness
You've got an ancient virus in your brain. In fact, you've got an ancient virus at the very root of your conscious thought.
https://www.livescience.com/61627-ancie ... brain.html

If a bacteria or virus is proven to be conscious, it is evidence that plants are likely to possess a higher consciousness.
That first paper, in particular, has some serious problems.

The other ones aren't saying anything like you're trying to suggest they're saying.

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: May 2nd, 2020, 12:40 pm
by psyreporter
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 9:45 am I've been thinking about this topic, and the questions it raises. More specifically, I've been wondering about what lies behind these questions.
The questions seemed relevant considering publications by professors that argued that plants are essentially "slow animals". It may be important that philosophy explores passable roads in front of the tide.

There may be an urgency as well:
economist-gmo.jpg
economist-gmo.jpg (60.71 KiB) Viewed 2526 times
Remaking life means automating biology

Those given to grand statements about the future often proclaim this to be the century of biology in the same way that the 20th century was that of physics and the 19th century was that of chemistry. ...

Humans have been turning biology to their own purposes for more than 10,000 years. ...

Reprogramming nature is extremely convoluted, having evolved with no intention or guidance. But if you could synthesize nature, life could be transformed into something more amenable to an engineering approach, with well defined standard parts.

Biotechnology is already a bigger business than many people realize. Rob Carlson of Bioeconomy Capital, an investment company, calculates that money made from creatures which have been genetically engineered accounted for about 2% of American GDP in 2017.


Big Pharma considers synthetic biology their "frontier for growth" and funnels their money to it. In January 2019 it spent $100 billion USD ($1.2 trillion USD per year) and it's just the beginning.

Big pharma raises bet on biotech as frontier for growth
https://www.ft.com/content/80a21ca2-136 ... f78404524e

With humans and animals there has been a certain scrutiny due to ethics and morality. With plants or nature, such is missing. Companies can easily consider plants as meaningless and there is little oversight.
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 9:45 amIf plants and animals are morally equivalent, what do we conclude from this? What is the use or purpose of the question "do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?"?
What considerations could there possibly be when plants are to be provided a moral status that is other than "meaningless lump of matter"? This by itself is the purpose of the questions (discovering whether a basis of respect for plants is applicable or even essential).

The idea that plants are a meaningless lump of matter does not seem plausible.

A basis of respect or morality may be vital for plants to prosper.

Vitality of nature - the foundation of human life - is the motive for the questions. A purposeful food source may be a stronger foundation for humanity.

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: May 2nd, 2020, 2:22 pm
by psyreporter
Terrapin Station wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 10:09 am That first paper, in particular, has some serious problems.

The other ones aren't saying anything like you're trying to suggest they're saying.
According to an article in NYT bacteria are "talking" to the human brain (i.e. provide instructions for emotions and thoughts). That would imply that the bacteria are conscious.

Germs in Your Gut Are Talking to Your Brain. Scientists Want to Know What They’re Saying.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2019 ... tal-health

Bacteria are proven to poses collective intelligence features. For example, they know that they need to be in a certain amount to attack a human to be able to win from its immune system. The bacteria wait and grow and start their attack as soon as they reached a sufficient number. They can also learn and unlearn this strategy.

Collective memory discovered in bacteria
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 153047.htm

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: May 2nd, 2020, 2:36 pm
by Consul
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 28th, 2020, 9:53 amWhy is that the most "plausible" answer? The exact nature of consciousness is not something we can yet define precisely, I don't think. So I find it hard to see why an animal brain should be the most plausible platform for consciousness. Perhaps it is, but to claim so implies some kind of evidence, no?
Yes, and there is convincing scientific evidence for the brain-dependence of consciousness.

QUOTE>
"Why do we have complex brains at all if they are so dispensable in the functioning of our minds? Why does brain damage obliterate mental faculties if minds do not owe their existence to brains? Why were there not minds floating about before brains ever evolved? Why are all mental changes actually accompanied by brain changes? The fact is that minds have their deep roots in brains. They are not just temporary residents of brains, like wandering nomads in the desert. Deracinate them and they lose their handle on reality. Minds don't merely occupy brains, they are somehow constituted by brains. That is why the minds of different species vary, why minds develop in concert with brains, why the health of your brain makes all the difference to the life of your mind. Minds and brains are not ships that pass in the night; the brain is the very lifeblood of the mind."

(McGinn, Colin. The Mysterious Flame: Conscious Minds in a Material World. New York: Basic Books, 1999. pp. 27-8)
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Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: May 2nd, 2020, 2:47 pm
by Consul
arjand wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 2:22 pmAccording to an article in NYT bacteria are "talking" to the human brain (i.e. provide instructions for emotions and thoughts). That would imply that the bacteria are conscious.

Germs in Your Gut Are Talking to Your Brain. Scientists Want to Know What They’re Saying.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2019 ... tal-health
"…the gut might influence our mental health…"

Yes, and there is in fact a "microbiota–gut–brain axis", but the microbiota involved aren't conscious agents.
arjand wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 2:22 pmBacteria are proven to poses collective intelligence features. For example, they know that they need to be in a certain amount to attack a human to be able to win from its immune system. The bacteria wait and grow and start their attack as soon as they reached a sufficient number. They can also learn and unlearn this strategy.

Collective memory discovered in bacteria
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 153047.htm
Even if bacteria are intelligent in terms of being capable of learning and memory, their intelligence has nothing to do with (subjective) sentience.

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: May 2nd, 2020, 2:58 pm
by Marvin_Edwards
Morality is specific to each species. Pulling up the weed is bad for the weed but good for the gardener.

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: May 2nd, 2020, 6:51 pm
by Sy Borg
Further to Marvin's post, if we do not kill, then we will die, to be replaced by an entity that has no qualms about killing.

The proto-consciousness experienced by plants and simple animals will not produce the kind of emotional affects that are important when considering the ethics of killing. As things stand, we humans are often so self-absorbed that we cannot even empathise with pigs, cattle, sheep and chickens - all intelligent, sensitive species that suffer similarly to human children. Given the situation, with most human societies supplying most of their meat needs with ruthlessly cruel containment and slaughter factories, plants don't stand any chance of mustering empathy.

Life is incredibly tough, a fact disguised by our ability insulate ourselves from the worst of it with "civilisation". It's not just humans, of course. All species are utterly ruthless when it come to feeding and protecting themselves and their young. Plants too. So often you can see them locked in their slow motion wrestles for the sunniest spot, and each "combatant" will be trying to take every last bit of sun, not caring at all if it kills its neighbour.

We dream of a kinder world that is, at best, still a long way off.

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: May 2nd, 2020, 7:49 pm
by Terrapin Station
arjand wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 2:22 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 10:09 am That first paper, in particular, has some serious problems.

The other ones aren't saying anything like you're trying to suggest they're saying.
According to an article in NYT bacteria are "talking" to the human brain (i.e. provide instructions for emotions and thoughts). That would imply that the bacteria are conscious.

Germs in Your Gut Are Talking to Your Brain. Scientists Want to Know What They’re Saying.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2019 ... tal-health

Bacteria are proven to poses collective intelligence features. For example, they know that they need to be in a certain amount to attack a human to be able to win from its immune system. The bacteria wait and grow and start their attack as soon as they reached a sufficient number. They can also learn and unlearn this strategy.

Collective memory discovered in bacteria
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 153047.htm
The first article is simply about the well-known fact that gut flora have a big influence on things like serotonin levels, which obviously affect mood.

The second article is simply about cells adaptively responding to environmental factors. That article is using "memory" in a metaphorical sense with respect to mentality.

Re: Do plants deserve a moral status as "animal"?

Posted: May 2nd, 2020, 10:34 pm
by Consul
Greta wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 6:51 pmThe proto-consciousness experienced by plants and simple animals will not produce the kind of emotional affects that are important when considering the ethics of killing. As things stand, we humans are often so self-absorbed that we cannot even empathise with pigs, cattle, sheep and chickens - all intelligent, sensitive species that suffer similarly to human children. Given the situation, with most human societies supplying most of their meat needs with ruthlessly cruel containment and slaughter factories, plants don't stand any chance of mustering empathy.
You cannot empathize with what isn't a subject of experience, since empathy consists in imagining what it's like to experience the world from the first-person perspective of what or who you empathize with. The Oxford Dictionary of Psychology defines "empathy" as "the capacity to understand and enter into another person's feelings and emotions or to experience something from the other person's point of view." The problem is that I as a human being with a human mind can hardly or even not at all imagine what it's like to be a nonhuman being with a nonhuman mind, depending on how biologically and psychologically close the animal species in question is to homo sapiens. That's why Peter Carruthers argues that what matters morally isn't empathy but sympathy.

QUOTE>
"[E]mpathy requires first-personal identification with the feelings of the subject empathized with. To empathize with someone means imagining, in a first-person way, what that person is feeling—thereby, to a degree, sharing that feeling (or at least aiming to share that feeling, since empathy may miss its target and go awry). Because any state that we consciously imagine in this way will perforce be phenomenally conscious, that raises the question whether it is appropriate to feel empathy for any given species of animal. If that animal is capable of phenomenally conscious experience, then it will be; but if it isn’t, then it won’t. And if there is no fact of the matter, this would seem to fall into the same category as definite lack of phenomenally conscious status. It would appear to require the definite presence of phenomenal consciousness for empathy for the states of a creature to be appropriate. For one might think that it can only be appropriate to take a first-person perspective on the simulated states of a creature if the creature, too, can take just such a perspective.

Empathy can be morally problematic even in the human case, however. One reason is that it is highly partial. It is much easier to generate empathy for a family member, a loved one, or a friend than it is to feel empathy for a stranger or an out-group member. Moreover, the accuracy of one’s empathic feelings (i.e. their degree of resemblance to the feelings of the target) is highly dependent on one’s knowledge of the other person, as well as on the degree to which one’s psychological profiles are similar.

Empathy is especially problematic in connection with nonhuman animals, even setting aside the question of consciousness. For imagination is likely to be a highly unreliable guide to the mental life of an animal. This is because anything we imagine, and any set of images we form, will be globally broadcast to our own set of consumer systems and emotional systems, which differ quite significantly from those of the target animal. So the result will be a distinctively human emotional state, rather than a strictly animal one. Empathizing with an animal held in captivity, for example, one might feel that its situation is a terrible one. But that might not reflect the perspective of the animal at all (and will vary on a species-by-species basis). Likewise, empathizing with a circus animal, one might feel that its situation is degrading. But I am pretty confident that no animal ever feels degraded. That presupposes forms of social embeddedness and a concern for reputation that are arguably uniquely human. And in the opposite direction, empathizing with a mouse that remains motionless while one holds it gently in one’s hands, one might think that it is enjoying the comforting warmth, when in fact it is frozen in fear.

Empathy should be distinguished from sympathy, however. When empathizing, one simulates in the first person the presumed situation of the other, and enters into an emotional state that is (if everything goes well, and one is sufficiently similar in nature to the other) the same as the emotional state of the other. In empathizing with someone’s grief at the death of a loved one, for example, one ends up in a grief-like state oneself. Sympathy, in contrast, can be grounded in a third-personal understanding of the situation and emotional state of the other. Understanding that the other person is grieving, and caring about how they feel, one comes to see their grief as bad. (That is, one experiences negative valence directed at their state of grief: one wants them to feel better.) This then motives one to do what one can to alleviate their grief.

Sympathy can be grounded in imagination, of course. Imagining what it is like to lose a loved one, one enters a grief-like state. This provides one with knowledge of what the other person is likely feeling. One then comes to see that what the other is feeling is bad, and consequently one wants to help. Plainly, however, one should not use imagination to ground one’s sympathy directed at the plight of an animal. For what one imagines will be broadcast to one's own affective and valuational systems, not the animal's. So the resulting affective response is likely to be quite wide of its target, and one will end up with false beliefs about what the animal feels. If one thinks that it might be important to be sympathetic towards the situation of an animal, one should seek an accurate third-person understanding of its needs and affective states, not project one's own feelings onto it.

Indeed, it seems plain that sympathy can be independent of questions of consciousness."

(Carruthers, Peter. Human and Animal Minds: The Consciousness Questions Laid to Rest. New York: Oxford University Press, 2019. pp. 174-6)
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