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Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 24th, 2019, 5:19 am
by GaryLouisSmith
Felix wrote: June 24th, 2019, 3:59 am GaryLouisSmith: "I wonder just what it is in my ideas that makes them odd."

I'd have to understand them to know if they are "odd" or not. Your writing is disjointed and it's not always clear what point you're trying to make.

You had said: "I contend that we are directly, phenomenologically, aware of the various Nexus. Other philosophers of my ilk say we aren't and we must only infer their existence."

And when I asked about that, you replied, "What I had in mind is not important." Then why write it?
I think when you wrote your piece, you were really interested in presenting your ideas on the matter. That was fine. I found your ideas interesting. If you really want to understand what I am thinking you will have to ask me some question to which I will respond. And you might also read what I have written, but all that seems unlikely. As for my ideas being disjointed, yes they are. Why are you uncomfortable with that? I have presented my ideas at great length elsewhere. The reason I am on this blog is to gauge what other people are thinking and to get ideas for my writing.

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 24th, 2019, 5:43 am
by Belindi
Greta wrote:
God is order, Satan is entropy/chaos.
Are two aspects of psychological reality. Throughout the whole of her post from which I have quoted Greta is Dionysian, which I imagine is the proper aspect of her psyche to bring to jazz music and more.

The God Who rules science is mostly Apollonian as is the God who rules societies and social morality.

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 24th, 2019, 6:14 am
by Belindi
GaryLouisSmith wrote regarding form and meaning:
I agree totally. I have always been one to assert that Form exists. Platonic Form. That is my realism. It is not something imposed by a mind. Rather it is an imposition on the mind. (I think that's the first time I used the word "impose" ontologically. I'll see where it goes.)
I prefer Aristotelian form because, in the case of human beings, and limited to whatever our nurturing has been and is, we develop through discernible stages from infancy though maturity to old age. So our form as human beings is set out by our possibilities and each individual is constrained by that form . Aristotelian form emerges from nature. Nature in man mixes chance and reasoned choice.

From what did Platonic form emerge?

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 24th, 2019, 6:48 am
by GaryLouisSmith
Belindi wrote: June 24th, 2019, 6:14 am GaryLouisSmith wrote regarding form and meaning:
I agree totally. I have always been one to assert that Form exists. Platonic Form. That is my realism. It is not something imposed by a mind. Rather it is an imposition on the mind. (I think that's the first time I used the word "impose" ontologically. I'll see where it goes.)
I prefer Aristotelian form because, in the case of human beings, and limited to whatever our nurturing has been and is, we develop through discernible stages from infancy though maturity to old age. So our form as human beings is set out by our possibilities and each individual is constrained by that form . Aristotelian form emerges from nature. Nature in man mixes chance and reasoned choice.

From what did Platonic form emerge?
Yes, you are right about the Aristotelian Form. It emerges from Nature, or so it is said. The Platonic Form doesn't emerge, rather it comes from Transcendence. Maybe instead of "comes from" I should say it descends. Anyway, it is from above, not below as is an Aristotelian Form. That is why the Platonic Form is most clearly in the Greek Beautiful Boy, which was their escape from the chthonic underworld. Above vs. below. Camille Paglia in Sexual Personae speaks of this at length.

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 24th, 2019, 12:34 pm
by Felix
GaryLouisSmith: "As for my ideas being disjointed, yes they are. Why are you uncomfortable with that?"

I'm not uncomfortable with it, heck, I like Cecil Taylor's music. It just makes it hard to follow - I mean, this is not a poetry forum.

GaryLouisSmith: "Yes, you are right about the Aristotelian Form. It emerges from Nature, or so it is said. The Platonic Form doesn't emerge, rather it comes from Transcendence."

I seems to me that the Transcendent is beyond forms, if you're still hung up on forms, you haven't left terra firma.

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 24th, 2019, 5:20 pm
by GaryLouisSmith
Felix wrote: June 24th, 2019, 12:34 pm GaryLouisSmith: "As for my ideas being disjointed, yes they are. Why are you uncomfortable with that?"

I'm not uncomfortable with it, heck, I like Cecil Taylor's music. It just makes it hard to follow - I mean, this is not a poetry forum.

GaryLouisSmith: "Yes, you are right about the Aristotelian Form. It emerges from Nature, or so it is said. The Platonic Form doesn't emerge, rather it comes from Transcendence."

I seems to me that the Transcendent is beyond forms, if you're still hung up on forms, you haven't left terra firma.
Let us say that it was Galileo who started the long process of mathematicizing the material world. In order to explain that let me draw a distinction between a mathematical form and matter. I will begin with Aristotle and first his view of matter and then with his view of the ideal of language, which at that ideal extreme becomes mathematics.

Matter is thick and dark stuff, in stillness and unconscious self-containment. Hyle. Far removed from that are the clear statements of an ideal language. By clear I mean thoroughly transparent. And by that I mean that the words of such clear statements do not call attention to themselves, absolutely do not present themselves as things to be viewed, but rather point beyond themselves to their meaning. Such thoroughly clear transparent sentences are the formula of mathematics. One could say that they are in the light of pure understanding. Sentences that do call attention to themselves are called poetry or poetic prose; they become literature. Literature is therefore opaque; it has a certain darkening or twilight feel. Literature is feeling, as opposed to the clear openness of scientific reason. Scientific statements ideally have no tendency to stop the movement of the mind and call attention to themselves.

The mathematicizing of the material world took the heaviness out of matter and substituted in its place mathematical formula. Light replaced darkness. The pure movement of transparent thought replaced inert dead stuff. Mathematics de-materialized the world.

I apologize for this somewhat literary presentation of things; I love the "feel" of the sentence. I love the rhythms of language. Therefore, I am more of the shadows. It turns out that I am more of a materialist that are the high-flying scientifically minded of today. I think maybe they are flying a little to close to the Sun. It seems to me that in addition to "pure" mathematical form, we also need thick matter for it to cling to. I am claiming an impure thing. And here, in such an unscientific fashion, I have called attention to myself. I have not served the Light of high abstract thought by disappearing into it. I am a tumescent thickness. This is an erotic writing.

Today the ideal is to completely transform the darkness into light. The material universe becomes the instantiation of mathematical formula. It becomes a book to be read, a book that has no hard cover or thick pages, no black ink, a book in which each sentence is as nothing of itself, sentences completely transparent pointing on to other sentences, of the ideal language, pure logic, pure mathematics. Light of light. A resplendent place. Aristotle's pure thought thinking of pure thought. These words are like the second person of the Trinity, the Logos, the Word, the self-effacing thing, the thing that completely yields to that First One. It is important to remember that, like that, a mathematical formula is literally nothing of itself.


And now the reversal, Aristotle's words are thus:

"Style to be good must be clear, as is proved by the fact that speech which fails to convey a plain meaning will fail to do just what speech has to do. … naturalness is persuasive, artificiality is the contrary; for our hearers are prejudiced and think we have some design against them, as if we were mixing their wines for them."

With that began the argument that has lasted for 2300 years. Style should not be noticed; style that shows, that is noticed, becomes the primal crime, the first act of immorality, deception!

The amazing thing is that Aristotle undoes what he says almost as soon as he said it. It concerns the word "naturalness". In Greek that is from phuein, meaning to grow, our word physical. And artificial is from plasso, plastic. The problem is that words and writings don't grow "naturally". And so Aristotle continues, "a writer must disguise his art and give the impression of speaking naturally and not artificially." The clarity, it turns must be noticed, but in a non-noticeable way.

And so it is with the pure mathematics of today's pure physics. I fear it is all artifice. Insidious style has crept into "physics talk", into "journalese", into hip "techno-speak". It has crept in unnoticed, as it should. That is partly because the writers and speakers of it have not wanted to learn about or believe in such things. Deception is not their game. Mathematical purity is the air in which they fly. They are, like the angels, clothed in radiant intellectual light. That turns them, of course, into the calm masculine ideal, far above the teeming emotions of dark feminine matter. In fact, they have become the distant governors of that lower world – until it is finally banished. Perhaps they want to turn themselves into the clear mathematical networking of artificial intelligence. Are they trying to make dark gray-matter, bodily ooze, yield to the control of pure form? They want to be the Mathematical, as translucent as the afternoon sky. In Sanskrit the word for sky is Dyaus, which in Greek is Zeus. A calm Apollonian state in which the drunken Dionysian revelry and butchery of Nature is overcome. But it's a trick. A natural artificiality, an artificial naturalness, is nothing at all.

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 24th, 2019, 7:23 pm
by GaryLouisSmith
Felix wrote: June 24th, 2019, 12:34 pm

... this is not a poetry forum.

In my writing I defend Platonic theism (the Forms) against Aristotelian conceptualism. The difference between a god and a concept is that the former has a heaviness to it. It is out there and it bears down on you with erotic pressure. It is opaque and thick. It is frightening. It knows you. A concept, though, is full of intellectual light. It is transparent and literally nothing of itself. It refers to something else. It is very very demure. There is no chance that it knows you.

Platonism and the gods are dark religion. Immoral priests (watch their hands). It is the boy seducing you, leading you away into never never land. It is the toxin of intoxicating rhythms. It starts off with a spiritual high and ends up in decadent sensualism.

Conceptualism, however, is the discussion group where everyone is respected and given a say. It is quiet consideration. It is polite thought. It is structured and it attempts to be mathematically transparent. It has data and well-wrought theories. It is rigorous. It is totally and completely without the tumescence of the erotic.

Philosophy, especially on a forum like this, is extreme conceptualism. There is no eroticism. No pressure. It is very polite. Unless you are impolite, in which case it will banish you. Platonism, here, is a joke. Yes, conceptualism is not poetry. Or so it presents itself. But alas it is contrived anti-poetry. One must work hard to appear so natural.

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 24th, 2019, 8:15 pm
by Felix
GaryLouisSmith: "The pure movement of transparent thought replaced inert dead stuff. Mathematics de-materialized the world."

I don't agree, it conceptualizes the world but thought does not have the power to dematerialize it, that requires transcending thought.

"And so it is with the pure mathematics of today's pure physics. I fear it is all artifice."


Yes, it is like the hybrid flower of artificial hue that has no scent and is repellent to butterflies.

I see... you view Platonic forms as the other side of Aristotelian forms, that may be so but I consider both to be limiting. Both mental and carnal knowledge must be eclipsed to reach the Transcendant, because it transcends nature and its reflections - at least that is my experience.

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 24th, 2019, 8:50 pm
by GaryLouisSmith
Felix wrote: June 24th, 2019, 8:15 pm
Both mental and carnal knowledge must be eclipsed to reach the Transcendant
I have no objection to your attempt to get beyond both mental and carnal knowledge. Of course I don't. If that's your desire, then go for it. It's not who I am, but It apparently is who you are. What do you think you will find over there?

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 24th, 2019, 11:38 pm
by GaryLouisSmith
Felix wrote: June 24th, 2019, 12:34 pm GaryLouisSmith: "As for my ideas being disjointed, yes they are. Why are you uncomfortable with that?"

I'm not uncomfortable with it, heck, I like Cecil Taylor's music. It just makes it hard to follow - I mean, this is not a poetry forum.

GaryLouisSmith: "Yes, you are right about the Aristotelian Form. It emerges from Nature, or so it is said. The Platonic Form doesn't emerge, rather it comes from Transcendence."

I seems to me that the Transcendent is beyond forms, if you're still hung up on forms, you haven't left terra firma.
I think your desire to reach the formless, the limitless, the infinite is Germanic and Faustian.

6893 Here’s another quote from Camille Paglia’s Sexual Personae -

“Apollonian form was derived from Egypt but perfected in Greece. Coleridge says, “The Greeks idolized the finite,” while Northern Europeans have “a tendency to the infinite.” Spengler similarly identifies the modern “Faustian soul” with “pure and limitless space.” Following Nietzsche, he calls the Apollonian “the principle of visible limits” and applies it to the Greek city-state: “All that lay beyond the visual range of this political atom was alien.” The Greek statue, “the empirical visible body,” symbolizes classical reality: “the material, the optically definite, the comprehensible, the immediately present.” The Greeks were, in my phrase, visionary materialists. They saw things and persons hard and glittery, radiant with Apollonian glamour. We know the Maenadic Dionysus mainly through the impressionistic medium of Archaic vase painting. He appears in statue form only when he loses his beard and female garb and turns ephebic Olympian, in the fifth century and after. High classic Athenian culture is based on Apollonian definitiveness and externality. “The whole tendency of Greek philosophy after Plato,” remarks Gilbert Murray, “was away from the outer world towards the world of the soul.” The shift of Greek thought from outer to inner parallels the shift in art from the male to the female nude, from homosexual to heterosexual taste. Spengler says of Greek society, “What was far away, invisible, was ipso facto ‘not there’.” I cited Karen Horney’s observation that a woman cannot see her own genitals. The Greek world-view was predicated on the model of absolute outwardness of male sex organs. Athenian culture flourished in externalities, the open air of the agora and the nudity of the palestra. There are no female nudes in major fifth-century art because female sexuality was imaginatively “not there,” buried like the Furies turned Eumenides. To the old complaint that the Greeks gave their statues the genitals of little boys, one could reply that the male nude offers the whole body as a projected genital. The modestly stooping Knidian Aphrodite marks the turn toward spiritual and sexual internality. It is the end of Apollo.”

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 25th, 2019, 1:29 am
by Sy Borg
Belindi wrote: June 24th, 2019, 5:43 am Greta wrote:
God is order, Satan is entropy/chaos.
Are two aspects of psychological reality. Throughout the whole of her post from which I have quoted Greta is Dionysian, which I imagine is the proper aspect of her psyche to bring to jazz music and more.

The God Who rules science is mostly Apollonian as is the God who rules societies and social morality.
Hi Belinda, we haven't spoken in a while.

I see my view as being more about the entwining of Apollo and Dionysus rather than a rivalry. Entropy is Apollonian.

I won't make assertions outside of the scientific paradigm (ie. contradict those who know far more than me about their field) but I do like to consider the metaphorical and fractal relationships in nature, including those in hominid populations.

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 25th, 2019, 3:56 am
by Felix
"What do you think you will find over there?"

Hard to verbalize... the other side of Life, freedom from the prison of material reality. I have seen the limits of mental and carnal knowledge and am bored with that show.

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 25th, 2019, 6:36 am
by GaryLouisSmith
Felix wrote: June 25th, 2019, 3:56 am "What do you think you will find over there?"

Hard to verbalize... the other side of Life, freedom from the prison of material reality. I have seen the limits of mental and carnal knowledge and am bored with that show.
You probably know this poem already, but I'll send it anyway. It is written to those monks in their fifties who found metaphysics and church ritual to be no longer sweet as it was in their youth. In the poem where he says "my house being now at rest" he is referring to that boredom. They were looking for something more or higher. They were looking for the real presence of the Lover.

St. John of the Cross


Dark Night of the Soul

1. On a dark night,
kindled in love with yearnings
- --oh, happy chance!--
I went forth without being observed,
my house being now at rest.

2. In darkness and secure,
by the secret ladder, disguised
- --oh, happy chance!--
in darkness and in concealment,
my house being now at rest.

3. In the happy night,
in secret, when none saw me,
nor I beheld aught,
without light or guide,
save that which burned in my heart.

4. This light guided me
more surely than the light of noonday
to the place where he was awaiting me
- --well I knew who!--
a place where none appeared.

5. Oh, night that guided me,
oh, night more lovely than the dawn,
oh, night that joined
beloved with lover,
lover transformed in the Beloved!

6. Upon my flowery breast,
kept wholly for himself alone,
there he stayed sleeping,
and I caressed him,
and the fanning of the cedars made a breeze.

7. The breeze blew from the turret
as I parted his locks;
with his gentle hand
he wounded my neck
and caused all my senses to be suspended.

8. I remained, lost in oblivion;
my face I reclined on the Beloved.
All ceased and I abandoned myself,
leaving my cares
forgotten among the lilies.

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 25th, 2019, 7:36 am
by Belindi
The sexual metaphor reminds me of another similar one The Ecstasy of Saint Teresa. I suspect they are sublimations of sexual need. This is not a complaint , but my attempt to show that longing to transcend nature is itself natural. In this regard poetry at its best is as concise and as precise as the language of mathematics and physics. Poetry is a linguistic register that uses its peculiar form to transcend the "darkness" of natural human feelings.

GaryLouisSmith, I understand your references to the beautiful boy of Apollonian statues and the emergence of the feminine and Dionysian in the Aphrodite. These aren't in opposition but are two means to the most good or God if you like. How would you class the best historiography, Apollonian or Dionysian?

GaryLouisSmith wrote:
The difference between a god and a concept is that the former has a heaviness to it. It is out there and it bears down on you with erotic pressure. It is opaque and thick. It is frightening. It knows you. A concept, though, is full of intellectual light. It is transparent and literally nothing of itself. It refers to something else. It is very very demure. There is no chance that it knows you.


The word 'God' is so encumbered with what you deprecate that we need another name for the concept of the good. Because people don't believe in that old Idol any more, or trust it. I contend that life is better than death and so we should aim for life to continue on Earth. To do this we need a global consensus on the Concept of good.And another word for it.

Re: Let's Say You Convince Us That God Exists....

Posted: June 25th, 2019, 9:01 am
by Le Vautre
@Belindi I suspect there is also a sublimation of a sexual need in Freud's works. ^^ What should we do? Is this axiom an effect of sexual frustration? God can be a multivalent image, and when I read (for example) the poem of St. John of the Cross or any aphorism of Pascal, I can't see how it can be self-reassurance... Not to mention Shiva, and all mana entities, which are generally double-sided. ...

And Luther was so scared ... !