Philosophy Discussion Forums

enegue wrote:However, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the gravitational influence on the OPERATION of an atomic clock is the reason they get out of sync, not that TIME is being affected in any way. As, I said, TIME is simply a reference scale on which gravity can have no influence.

This is false and I'll explain why. Gravity affects time in a very precise way by physically speeding it up or slowing it down and this is quite literally the case. The caesium clock is an excellent example because caesium clocks are used to define the unit of time we call the second. The second is defined as the length of time it takes a group of caesium atoms in a caesium clock to swing between states 9,192,631,770 times. It doesn't matter where in the universe you put this clock. The caesium atoms within it will still swing between states the same number of times per second AS MEASURED LOCALLY. Therefore whether you put your clock on the moon, in intergalactic "space", on a neutron star or deep in the bowels of a black hole the caesium atoms will be doing the same thing, AS MEASURED LOCALLY. However a second inside a massive black hole might take a million years of earth time to pass so if we were to observe the caesium atoms in the black hole's clock from earth we might have to wait months to see one of them move once. Gravity slows all of reality down and time quite literally and physically passes at a non-constant speed according to it.

This is even true on earth. If you live on top of the hill you will literally age more quickly than you would if you lived at the bottom. You would literally be living your life faster.

Regards Leo

Atreyu wrote:

There is an endless procession of so called other dimensions, but these are called inner and outer dimensions. For example - A galaxy is an atom in another larger dimension, and an atom is a galaxy in another smaller dimension. Its all a matter of fractal reality. There are galaxies within galaxies within galaxies which extend to infinity in both directions both inwards and outwards. The concept of there being 11 dimensions is childish and narrow minded.

Yes! Thx Darwin for this video. Unfortunately it seems to have ended before he got to the good part. I was thinking of just this kind of visualization to explain the 4th dimension but didn't want to try and elucidate it in this forum.

The key point, which the video apparently ended before getting to, was that the plane beings would regard our three dimensional world as their past and their future. If the apple crossed and re-crossed their plane in regular intervals, no doubt the plane beings would use it as a means of establishing their unit of time. They would say that these peculiar lines appear and disappear at regular intervals. The lines 'go into the past' and will be 'coming from the future'. What they think is the past and the future we would regard as the eternal present in 3 dimensions.

The same is true in relation to our cognition of time. We say that the moment is here, but the past 'is gone' and the future is 'yet to be'. But in reality all the successive moments of time eternally coexist side-by-side in the world of higher dimensions. The ancient Hindus called it 'the Eternal Now' --- where all the past, present, and future are all realized simultaneously. And, of course, in the so called 'multiverse' view, not only is the actual or realized past, present, and future all existing simultaneously and eternally, but also all the possible pasts and futures and presents --- those that could have happened but didn't, as well as those that could happen but will not. And in some models even impossible pasts, presents, and futures can all eternally coexist.

I could elucidate a pretty good model to help visualize this idea better, but it's very complex so I won't do it unless requested. But yes, that video was the beginning of a very good way to learn to visualize the dimensions of space beyond the first three (which we have the capacity to perceive as spatial, rather than as chronological, phenomena).

1. The fact that you didn't search Youtube for the 2nd half of the video shows that you lack curiosity and your research methods are not thorough enough. 2. Your referral to Hindu religion suggests that your understanding of science is religious based and therefore, illogical.

3. Carl Sargan's view of the universe is one of parallel universes. This is a false concept which doesn't take into consideration the concepts of infinity of scale and fractal reality.

4. You haven't addressed my concepts of infinite universes which are bound one within the other.

5. You fail to see the ridiculousness of the Carl Sargan video which is a worry in it self.

Part 2 of Carl Sargan video ---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v -- Updated June 22nd, 2014, 5:39 pm to add the following --

Obvious Leo wrote:
This is false and I'll explain why. Gravity affects time in a very precise way by physically speeding it up or slowing it down and this is quite literally the case. The caesium clock is an excellent example because caesium clocks are used to define the unit of time we call the second. The second is defined as the length of time it takes a group of caesium atoms in a caesium clock to swing between states 9,192,631,770 times. It doesn't matter where in the universe you put this clock. The caesium atoms within it will still swing between states the same number of times per second AS MEASURED LOCALLY. Therefore whether you put your clock on the moon, in intergalactic "space", on a neutron star or deep in the bowels of a black hole the caesium atoms will be doing the same thing, AS MEASURED LOCALLY. However a second inside a massive black hole might take a million years of earth time to pass so if we were to observe the caesium atoms in the black hole's clock from earth we might have to wait months to see one of them move once. Gravity slows all of reality down and time quite literally and physically passes at a non-constant speed according to it.

This is even true on earth. If you live on top of the hill you will literally age more quickly than you would if you lived at the bottom. You would literally be living your life faster.

Regards Leo

What you are talking about is fractal reality. The fractal reality of an atom is different to our dimension and that of a galaxy. These are 3 different fractal time dimensions in which one second equals a million years in comparison to the next fractal reality which is one fractal step away from the other.

DarwinX wrote:1. The fact that you didn't search Youtube for the 2nd half of the video shows that you lack curiosity and your research methods are not thorough enough. 2. Your referral to Hindu religion suggests that your understanding of science is religious based and therefore, illogical.

3. Carl Sargan's view of the universe is one of parallel universes. This is a false concept which doesn't take into consideration the concepts of infinity of scale and fractal reality.

4. You haven't addressed my concepts of infinite universes which are bound one within the other.

5. You fail to see the ridiculousness of the Carl Sargan video which is a worry in it self.

1. I did search for the 2nd half of the video, but could not find it. And your link says 'video is not available in your country'.

2. This sounds like a baseless attack. Are you looking for a fight, or something? lol. I'm not religious but have studied all the religions from an academic perspective. I openly admit I think one can learn a lot from religion if one does not 'identify' with it and remains an 'outsider'. I don't have to subscribe to the belief systems or methodologies of the institution of religion in order to be able to learn something from it. And I don't endorse their methodology, but rather the methods of science. You are quite wrong in suggesting that I am approaching science from the viewpoint of Hinduism. I approach Hinduism from the viewpoint of science.

3. You would have to be more specific here in order for me to comment. All I can say is that I do endorse the so called 'multiverse' view, it can be backed up soundly with a proper understanding of higher dimensional theory. The only objection I have to the theory is the name. But if you would like to start a new thread on this, I'll be happy to defend the view that so called 'parallel worlds' or 'parallel realities' all exist together in the one Universe of more than three spatial dimensions.

4. I'm unaware of it. That sounds like the 'multiverse' view, which I already endorse.

5. Actually, the 'plane world' is a good way to understand higher dimensional theory. It's difficult to understand and visualization is essential. I have some of my own favorite visualizations and analogies, but I'll share them in the appropriate thread. But, at any rate, no, I really didn't think the video was that ridiculous. It indeed showed how one being's perception of time becomes another being's perception of space in a world of more dimensions than the former.

Obvious Leo wrote:enegue said:
However, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the gravitational influence on the OPERATION of an atomic clock is the reason they get out of sync, not that TIME is being affected in any way. As, I said, TIME is simply a reference scale on which gravity can have no influence.

The caesium clock is an excellent example because caesium clocks are used to define the unit of time we call the second. The second is defined as the length of time it takes a group of caesium atoms in a caesium clock to swing between states 9,192,631,770 times. It doesn't matter where in the universe you put this clock. The caesium atoms within it will still swing between states the same number of times per second AS MEASURED LOCALLY. Therefore whether you put your clock on the moon, in intergalactic "space", on a neutron star or deep in the bowels of a black hole the caesium atoms will be doing the same thing,

You've missed the point, Leo. It's not what the caesium atoms are doing that is at issue, it's the process necessary to DETECT what they are doing. Gravity will have an IMPACT on the OPERATION of the clock, which is the reason they get out of sync.

TIME is a scale that we use to make reference to processes as they unfold, and the scale is the same whether you are standing on a hill or sitting in a dale.

Cheers,
enegue

Atreyu wrote:
2. This sounds like a baseless attack. Are you looking for a fight, or something? lol. I'm not religious but have studied all the religions from an academic perspective. I openly admit I think one can learn a lot from religion if one does not 'identify' with it and remains an 'outsider'. I don't have to subscribe to the belief systems or methodologies of the institution of religion in order to be able to learn something from it. And I don't endorse their methodology, but rather the methods of science. You are quite wrong in suggesting that I am approaching science from the viewpoint of Hinduism. I approach Hinduism from the viewpoint of science.

Not many people realize that religion is just a tool of the ruling classes which is used to manipulate and control the masses. Thus, if you are using religion to explain a scientific point of view, you are also pushing the cart and agendas of the ruling classes. The ruling class use religion to create false understanding of the world which benefits the ruling class by encouraging ignorance to flourish and spread in the name of religious righteousness. It is the arrogance of the ruling class to always assume that they are right and that their views on the universe are the only right views. Thus, Hinduism or any other religion is just a hidden deceptive tool of the ruling class to manipulate and control.

3. You would have to be more specific here in order for me to comment. All I can say is that I do endorse the so called 'multiverse' view, it can be backed up soundly with a proper understanding of higher dimensional theory. The only objection I have to the theory is the name. But if you would like to start a new thread on this, I'll be happy to defend the view that so called 'parallel worlds' or 'parallel realities' all exist together in the one Universe of more than three spatial dimensions.

There exists no proof to prove the existence of any other dimensions apart from the familiar 3 dimensions that we live in. Its all just a matter of logical consequences. There are no walls or barriers to stop infinity from existing, therefore, infinity must exist. There are no walls or barriers to stop particles smaller than an atom to exist, so therefore, they must exist. You just have to apply the laws of infinity to scale and throw in some fractal theory and presto you have fractal reality and a multi-universe which is endless. But, I must emphasize that parallel universes can only exist in the inner and outer realities. They are not accessible to us, but there effects can be felt in a number of ways. These may include light, gravity, magnetism, energy etc. Note - All of the invisible forces are just inter-dimensional effects of the inner and outer fractal reality. The barrier that we call mass is just a dimensional limit which differentiates one dimension from another dimension. We live in an endless dot matrix which has no inner or outer barriers and extends to infinity in both the the inner and outer directions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v -- Updated June 26th, 2014, 1:12 pm to add the following --

Atreyu wrote:
2. This sounds like a baseless attack. Are you looking for a fight, or something? lol. I'm not religious but have studied all the religions from an academic perspective. I openly admit I think one can learn a lot from religion if one does not 'identify' with it and remains an 'outsider'. I don't have to subscribe to the belief systems or methodologies of the institution of religion in order to be able to learn something from it. And I don't endorse their methodology, but rather the methods of science. You are quite wrong in suggesting that I am approaching science from the viewpoint of Hinduism. I approach Hinduism from the viewpoint of science.

.

It doesn't matter what angle that you are looking at religion from, its still illogical and a product of the ruling classes. If you subscribe to its doctrines, then you are not dealing with science but are involved in religious propaganda and nonsense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v