Philosophy Discussion Forums

Consul wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 1:10 pm The meaning of "anti-Semitism" is sufficiently clear: "theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews. Hence anti-Semite, one who is hostile or opposed to the Jews" (Oxford Dictionary of English) – So anti-Semitism = anti-Jewism.

Sadly, the Israel-influenced IHRC definition of anti-Semitism also includes criticism of the state of Israel. The Holocaust was a terrible thing, I don't think anyone would argue with that. But in recent times, Israel has used it to create a sort of get-out-of-jail-free card, to avoid criticisms (and more) that apply to other nations. That is despicable, IMO.

Consul wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 1:31 pm Are the Arabs living in Palestine the sole rightful owners of it?

Are the Americans living in the USA the "sole rightful owners of it"? If not, how would you describe their 'rights' as regards the country in which they live?

Consul wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 6:57 pm

Consul wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 1:10 pm What about the terms "anti-Judaism" and "anti-Israelism"?
The OED defines the former as "the profession or practice of the Jewish religion; the religious system or polity of the Jews". Thus defined, "anti-Judaism" and "anti-Semitism" are not synonyms, because "anti-Jewish-religion" or "anti-Jewish-theism" is not synonymous with "anti-Jewish (simpliciter)".
I would define "anti-Israelism" as the view that the state of Israel has no right to exist, that there should be no such state as Israel, that Israel should be wiped off the map of Palestine. (Note that anti-Israelism thus defined is different from "anti-(current-)Israeli-governmentism"!)

I forgot to mention "anti-Zionism", which I think is synonymous with "anti-Israelism": There should be no such Jewish state as Israel.

I think you can be against Zionism but still accept that Isreal is a fait-acompli. It's too late to uninvent it now. Millions of Jews have decended on the region for 100 years. Much of this immigration has been illegal and the much of the rest is only legal in terms of the most absurd immoral Isreali laws which continue to steal homes and land from Palestinians which have had properties since time immemorial.
Israel is here to stay, but unless and until they learn to behave within international law and accept the horrors that they have heaped on the indigenous population for 75 years, there will be a perpetual war which continues to heap suffering on non jews.
The other alternative is to completely exterminate all Palestinians - which I think is the unspoken aim of Netanyahu.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 10:38 am

Consul wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 1:10 pm The meaning of "anti-Semitism" is sufficiently clear: "theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews. Hence anti-Semite, one who is hostile or opposed to the Jews" (Oxford Dictionary of English) – So anti-Semitism = anti-Jewism.

Sadly, the Israel-influenced IHRC definition of anti-Semitism also includes criticism of the state of Israel. The Holocaust was a terrible thing, I don't think anyone would argue with that. But in recent times, Israel has used it to create a sort of get-out-of-jail-free card, to avoid criticisms (and more) that apply to other nations. That is despicable, IMO.

I think it is worth asking WHoTF are they, and who funds them?
Israel has made a fetish out of the Holocaust, and uses it for political ends. It ignores the fact that many other categories of people died; such as disabled, gays/lesbians, trans, left wingers, slavs, etc.

Interestingly if you google IHRC you get "Islamic Human Rights Commission", who immediately front page the plight of Palestine, who dod not enjoy the special status of Jews.

There is no doubt that Israel were complicit in the false traducing of Jeremy Corbyn and effectively have taken over the control of the UK Labour Party with a fifth column of "Friends For Isreal" and the "Jewish Labour Movement". The current leader, is doing his wife's bidding (a Zionist) and white-carding slaughter and the destruction of Gaza, despite the transgression of International Law. So much for his claim to be a human rights lawyer.

I'm puzzled to have to report that WIKI, does not have an entry for " International Human Rights Commission "

Although WIKI has nothing ChatGPT has this to say about it. "The International Human Rights Commission (IHRC) is a non-governmental organization (NGO) that claims to work towards the promotion and protection of human rights globally. However, it is important to note that the IHRC has been surrounded by controversy and criticism, with several countries and human rights organizations questioning its legitimacy and credibility.

The origins of the IHRC are somewhat murky, and there are multiple entities using similar names, which has led to confusion and skepticism. Some sources suggest that the organization was founded in 1983 in response to the need for a global body dedicated to human rights advocacy. Over the years, the IHRC has claimed to engage in various humanitarian activities, including monitoring human rights violations, providing assistance to victims of conflicts and natural disasters, and promoting awareness about human rights issues.

However, the IHRC's credibility has been called into question due to its lack of transparency, questionable affiliations with controversial figures and organizations, and dubious practices. Several governments and reputable human rights organizations have expressed concerns about the authenticity and legitimacy of the IHRC's activities. Some critics argue that the organization lacks accountability and operates with little oversight, leading to doubts about the impact and effectiveness of its initiatives.

It is essential to approach information related to the IHRC with caution and critically evaluate the sources, as the organization's credibility remains a topic of ongoing debate and scrutiny within the international community."

Its funding is SECRET.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 10:41 am I think you can be against Zionism but still accept that Isreal is a fait-acompli. It's too late to uninvent it now. Millions of Jews have decended on the region for 100 years. Much of this immigration has been illegal and the much of the rest is only legal in terms of the most absurd immoral Isreali laws which continue to steal homes and land from Palestinians which have had properties since time immemorial.
Israel is here to stay, but unless and until they learn to behave within international law and accept the horrors that they have heaped on the indigenous population for 75 years, there will be a perpetual war which continues to heap suffering on non jews.
The other alternative is to completely exterminate all Palestinians - which I think is the unspoken aim of Netanyahu.

As for the phrase "indigenous population", there were Jews in the geographic region called Palestine before there were any Muslims, and Jews have been there continuously "since time immemorial" too; so they are an indigenous population too.

Moreover, who exactly are "the Palestinians"? If all inhabitants of Palestine are Palestinians, then the Jews living there are Palestinians too. The Arab population now calling themselves "the Palestinians" or "the Palestinian people" hasn't existed as a distinct ethnic collective (with a national identity of their own) before the 20th century, has it?

The term "indigenous people" is often used in the context of the Jews = the colonizers/oppressors & Arabs/Muslims = the colonized/oppressed narrative; but history teaches us that things aren't simplistically black & white. The Arabs are themselves among the colonizers and oppressors in Palestine:

"The origins of Palestinians are complex and diverse. The region was not originally Arab – its Arabization was a consequence of the gradual inclusion of Palestine within the rapidly expanding Islamic Caliphates established by Arabian tribes and their local allies."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians

"In the late 6th century, a new monotheistic religion called Islam was founded by its prophet Muhammad, whose followers became known as Muslims. Muhammad united the tribes of Arabia into a religious polity, a caliphate, whose domains he and his successors extended into a vast empire through holy war (jihad). They conquered Palestine in 636 to 640."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... lim_period

Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_co ... the_Levant

Consul wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 12:29 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 10:41 am I think you can be against Zionism but still accept that Isreal is a fait-acompli. It's too late to uninvent it now. Millions of Jews have decended on the region for 100 years. Much of this immigration has been illegal and the much of the rest is only legal in terms of the most absurd immoral Isreali laws which continue to steal homes and land from Palestinians which have had properties since time immemorial.
Israel is here to stay, but unless and until they learn to behave within international law and accept the horrors that they have heaped on the indigenous population for 75 years, there will be a perpetual war which continues to heap suffering on non jews.
The other alternative is to completely exterminate all Palestinians - which I think is the unspoken aim of Netanyahu.

As for the phrase "indigenous population", there were Jews in the geographic region called Palestine before there were any Muslims, and Jews have been there continuously "since time immemorial" too; so they are an indigenous population too.

Indigenous people are those whose families have been settled their for generations, and who were forcibly displaced 100s of miles and inprisoned in Gaza.
There was only 2% Jewish population 120 years ago.
Saying there were Jews before their were Muslims is meaningless since Islam is a modern religion.
I'm taking about people whose families had been there for generations, not white settlers from New York, Russia, Germany and elsewhere.

Moreover, who exactly are "the Palestinians"? If all inhabitants of Palestine are Palestinians, then the Jews living there are Palestinians too. The Arab population now calling themselves "the Palestinians" or "the Palestinian people" hasn't existed as a distinct ethnic collective (with a national identity of their own) before the 20th century, has it?

Urumph!!! Who exactly are the Israelis. Such a place did not exist until 1948.
And don't give me nonsense about Biblical times. If we were to reverse time to the last time there was a place know as Isreal 99% of the world's population would have to be displaced. All whites and blacks would have to leave the Americas, Australia; English speakers would have to leave Britain, and they and the Franks would go where- Germany??

The fored displacement continues daily. Palestinians are forced out of their houses. the houses are refurbished with grants from the Jewish organisations with the sanction of the government, and indolent Jews from the US, mostly New York are invited to move into those houses free of charge.

THe IDF continue to allow houses to be build in Palestinian olive groves supervising the burning of the olive trees which have been tended by the same Arab families for generations; access roads are blocked off and arabs trying to continue their oilve harvest are beaten and killed by the IDF.

Consul wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 12:48 pm The term "indigenous people" is often used in the context of the Jews = the colonizers/oppressors & Arabs/Muslims = the colonized/oppressed narrative; but history teaches us that things aren't simplistically black & white. The Arabs are themselves among the colonizers and oppressors in Palestine:

Tell that to the Mohawk, Apache, Cheyanne, and the Blackfoot.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 1:59 pm Tell that to the Mohawk, Apache, Cheyanne, and the Blackfoot.

Was there never any colonization or oppression among American tribes? Did they all coexist peacefully and respectfully (before the arrival of Europeans)?

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 1:58 pm

Consul wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 12:29 pmAs for the phrase "indigenous population", there were Jews in the geographic region called Palestine before there were any Muslims, and Jews have been there continuously "since time immemorial" too; so they are an indigenous population too.

Indigenous people are those whose families have been settled their for generations, and who were forcibly displaced 100s of miles and inprisoned in Gaza.
There was only 2% Jewish population 120 years ago.
Saying there were Jews before their were Muslims is meaningless since Islam is a modern religion.
I'm taking about people whose families had been there for generations, not white settlers from New York, Russia, Germany and elsewhere.

Okay, but 2% ≠ 0%; so there is both a pre-1948 native Jewish population and a native Arab population in Palestine, even though the former remained in the minority until 1948.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 1:58 pm

Consul wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 12:29 pmMoreover, who exactly are "the Palestinians"? If all inhabitants of Palestine are Palestinians, then the Jews living there are Palestinians too. The Arab population now calling themselves "the Palestinians" or "the Palestinian people" hasn't existed as a distinct ethnic collective (with a national identity of their own) before the 20th century, has it?

Urumph!!! Who exactly are the Israelis. Such a place did not exist until 1948.

There was no Jewish state before 1948, and hence there are no pre-1948 Israelis; but there is a pre-1948 Jewish people.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 1:58 pm The fored displacement continues daily. Palestinians are forced out of their houses. the houses are refurbished with grants from the Jewish organisations with the sanction of the government, and indolent Jews from the US, mostly New York are invited to move into those houses free of charge.

THe IDF continue to allow houses to be build in Palestinian olive groves supervising the burning of the olive trees which have been tended by the same Arab families for generations; access roads are blocked off and arabs trying to continue their oilve harvest are beaten and killed by the IDF.

As I already said, I don't agree with Israel's current expansionist settlement policy in the West Bank.

It is an undeniable fact that there were mass expulsions of Arab Palestinians in 1948 and 1967.

"Even before the foundation of the State of Israel on 14 May 1948, the Palestinians had been militarily defeated by the Zionists. Some had already been expelled or had fled. Both things happened and each side propagated their own views. The most objective and self-critical views can be found in Israel (which comes as no real surprise), where much has recently been uncovered about the issue of expulsion. Probably the best analyses have been made by Benny Morris. Interested readers should consult his book “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1948–1949” (Cambridge 1987). Meir Pa’il, the Israeli military historian (and retired major), also gave an accurate and self-critical account of the controversy over “flight or expulsion”: “About one third of Palestinian refugees decided to flee of their own free will, especially at the beginning of the war [i.e. since November 1947]. Another third fled because of psychological measures of the Jews. They were told it would be better for them to leave of their own free will than to be conquered. The final third were expelled by force.”
…
What were these “psychological measures”? Here one example from 15 May 1948. Israeli soldiers gave Palestinian inhabitants of a Jerusalem district the following advice through loudspeakers: “Leave this bloodshed. Surrender with your weapons. You will suffer no harm … If you stay, you will cause a disaster.”
Two thirds of the Palestinians were expelled; one third fled hoping soon to return to “their own country” as winners.
…
How many people were living in the Holy Land in 1948? How many Jews, how many Palestinians? Let us look at the figures. On the eve of the foundation of the State of Israel,

* Around 600,000 Jews
* And almost 1.3 million Palestinians were living there.

That means roughly one Jew for every two Palestinians. In other words, about as many Jews were living in the Holy Land in 1948 as Palestinians were in 1918. At the end of World War I, only a small number of Jews were living in the Holy Land, i.e. about 54,000. That was almost 30,000 less than before World War I. Most of them had emigrated.
Let us now look at the figures on the date of Israeli independence, which take into account flight and expulsion.
On 15 May 1948 (one day after independence), the State of Israel was home to

* Around 650,000 Jews
* And only 156,000 Palestinians.

A dramatic change had occurred as a result of dramatic developments. In other words, the Jewish state had become almost “free of Arabs”."

(Wolffsohn, Michael. Whose Holy Land? The Roots of the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs. Cham: Springer, 2021. pp. 196+198)

"In November of 1991 Israel’s President, Chaim Herzog, admitted that in 1967, as a general of the Israeli army, he had participated in “channeling” some 200,000 Palestinians from the West Bank into Jordan. Busses and trucks were made available so that the Palestinians could “voluntarily” leave the West Bank for Jordan in order to join their relatives there—“voluntary” family reunification, a beneficial humanitarian program. Before leaving, the departees were given a paper to sign confirming the voluntary nature of their departure. Without a doubt it was an expulsion, but the procedure was, to say the least, considerably more humanitarian than that demanded of King Saul by the prophet Samuel."

(Wolffsohn, Michael. Whose Holy Land? The Roots of the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs. Cham: Springer, 2021. p. 103)

Consul wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 2:21 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 1:59 pm Tell that to the Mohawk, Apache, Cheyanne, and the Blackfoot.

Was there never any colonization or oppression among American tribes? Did they all coexist peacefully and respectfully (before the arrival of Europeans)?

No, but that did not justify their extermination.
Or maybe you think it does??

Consul wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 3:00 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 1:58 pm

Consul wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 12:29 pmAs for the phrase "indigenous population", there were Jews in the geographic region called Palestine before there were any Muslims, and Jews have been there continuously "since time immemorial" too; so they are an indigenous population too.

Indigenous people are those whose families have been settled their for generations, and who were forcibly displaced 100s of miles and inprisoned in Gaza.
There was only 2% Jewish population 120 years ago.
Saying there were Jews before their were Muslims is meaningless since Islam is a modern religion.
I'm taking about people whose families had been there for generations, not white settlers from New York, Russia, Germany and elsewhere.

Okay, but 2% ≠ 0%; so there is both a pre-1948 native Jewish population and a native Arab population in Palestine, even though the former remained in the minority until 1948.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 1:58 pm

Consul wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 12:29 pmMoreover, who exactly are "the Palestinians"? If all inhabitants of Palestine are Palestinians, then the Jews living there are Palestinians too. The Arab population now calling themselves "the Palestinians" or "the Palestinian people" hasn't existed as a distinct ethnic collective (with a national identity of their own) before the 20th century, has it?

Urumph!!! Who exactly are the Israelis. Such a place did not exist until 1948.

There was no Jewish state before 1948, and hence there are no pre-1948 Israelis; but there is a pre-1948 Jewish people.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 1:58 pm The fored displacement continues daily. Palestinians are forced out of their houses. the houses are refurbished with grants from the Jewish organisations with the sanction of the government, and indolent Jews from the US, mostly New York are invited to move into those houses free of charge.

THe IDF continue to allow houses to be build in Palestinian olive groves supervising the burning of the olive trees which have been tended by the same Arab families for generations; access roads are blocked off and arabs trying to continue their oilve harvest are beaten and killed by the IDF.

As I already said, I don't agree with Israel's current expansionist settlement policy in the West Bank.

It is an undeniable fact that there were mass expulsions of Arab Palestinians in 1948 and 1967.

"Even before the foundation of the State of Israel on 14 May 1948, the Palestinians had been militarily defeated by the Zionists. Some had already been expelled or had fled. Both things happened and each side propagated their own views. The most objective and self-critical views can be found in Israel (which comes as no real surprise), where much has recently been uncovered about the issue of expulsion. Probably the best analyses have been made by Benny Morris. Interested readers should consult his book “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1948–1949” (Cambridge 1987). Meir Pa’il, the Israeli military historian (and retired major), also gave an accurate and self-critical account of the controversy over “flight or expulsion”: “About one third of Palestinian refugees decided to flee of their own free will, especially at the beginning of the war [i.e. since November 1947]. Another third fled because of psychological measures of the Jews. They were told it would be better for them to leave of their own free will than to be conquered. The final third were expelled by force.”
…
What were these “psychological measures”? Here one example from 15 May 1948. Israeli soldiers gave Palestinian inhabitants of a Jerusalem district the following advice through loudspeakers: “Leave this bloodshed. Surrender with your weapons. You will suffer no harm … If you stay, you will cause a disaster.”
Two thirds of the Palestinians were expelled; one third fled hoping soon to return to “their own country” as winners.
…
How many people were living in the Holy Land in 1948? How many Jews, how many Palestinians? Let us look at the figures. On the eve of the foundation of the State of Israel,

* Around 600,000 Jews
* And almost 1.3 million Palestinians were living there.

That means roughly one Jew for every two Palestinians. In other words, about as many Jews were living in the Holy Land in 1948 as Palestinians were in 1918. At the end of World War I, only a small number of Jews were living in the Holy Land, i.e. about 54,000. That was almost 30,000 less than before World War I. Most of them had emigrated.
Let us now look at the figures on the date of Israeli independence, which take into account flight and expulsion.
On 15 May 1948 (one day after independence), the State of Israel was home to

* Around 650,000 Jews
* And only 156,000 Palestinians.

A dramatic change had occurred as a result of dramatic developments. In other words, the Jewish state had become almost “free of Arabs”."

(Wolffsohn, Michael. Whose Holy Land? The Roots of the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs. Cham: Springer, 2021. pp. 196+198)

"In November of 1991 Israel’s President, Chaim Herzog, admitted that in 1967, as a general of the Israeli army, he had participated in “channeling” some 200,000 Palestinians from the West Bank into Jordan. Busses and trucks were made available so that the Palestinians could “voluntarily” leave the West Bank for Jordan in order to join their relatives there—“voluntary” family reunification, a beneficial humanitarian program. Before leaving, the departees were given a paper to sign confirming the voluntary nature of their departure. Without a doubt it was an expulsion, but the procedure was, to say the least, considerably more humanitarian than that demanded of King Saul by the prophet Samuel."

(Wolffsohn, Michael. Whose Holy Land? The Roots of the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs. Cham: Springer, 2021. p. 103)

So so far you seem to think that because native American Indians would fight they deserved their complete destruction by white people. RIght got that.
And because there were 2% Jews in Palestine 100 years ago, that means that Netanyanu has every right to exterminate the population of Gaza and the Palestinians whose families have lived there as the majpority population; rasing their buildings to the ground and breaking International law by cutting off water, food and electricity. Right got that!

Thanks for your opinion.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 3:17 pm

Consul wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 2:21 pm Was there never any colonization or oppression among American tribes? Did they all coexist peacefully and respectfully (before the arrival of Europeans)?

No, but that did not justify their extermination.
Or maybe you think it does??

I don't.
I'm not aware of any Israeli plans to exterminate the Arab Palestinians. The genocide narrative is false! (Expulsion ≠ extermination!)

(There are a few Jewish crazies, but they are not tolerated: Israel minister suspended after calling nuking Gaza an option)