Philosophy Discussion Forums

I think what defines us as opposed to other animals is our unmatched intellect and our capacity to feel guilt. I would like to aver based on that that sin is more than just a human construct.

Harty Muli wrote: ↑January 18th, 2024, 9:27 am I think what defines us as opposed to other animals is our unmatched intellect and our capacity to feel guilt. I would like to aver based on that that sin is more than just a human construct.

Sin is thought relative to a supernatural being, a god in our language. If there is no supernatural deity there is no sin. One must believe in the supernatural inorder to believe in sin. There is no meaning but what is generated by biological consciousness, so the little system of guilt by sin is a biological expression, a biological creation.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2024, 12:55 am

Joshua10 wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2024, 10:21 am I don't agree no, because I don't agree with +=- and -=+ philosophy.

Equal but Opposite forces exist in reality and we know that they don't cancel out so we know that +=- and -=+ philosophy does not apply to nature.

So sin cannot be man-made.

Joshua,

All meaning is relative to biology, in the case of sin, it is a man-made concept. It is a concept made by a **** psyche wishing for parental guidance. All organisms are reactionary creatures, and the reactions of those creatures are what humanity deems experience/meanings and reality. Only unreal/fantasy is the realm of the supernatural. To quote old Albert," It is time for humanity to grow up." Your logic above is faulty, all is nature as defined by a biological subject. In the absence of a conscious/biological subject, the physical world is utterly meaningless.

There is far more to it than that popeye1945 because all of the sciences are interconnected.

Joshua10 wrote: ↑January 19th, 2024, 8:31 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2024, 12:55 am

Joshua10 wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2024, 10:21 am I don't agree no, because I don't agree with +=- and -=+ philosophy.

Equal but Opposite forces exist in reality and we know that they don't cancel out so we know that +=- and -=+ philosophy does not apply to nature.

So sin cannot be man-made.

Joshua,

All meaning is relative to biology, in the case of sin, it is a man-made concept. It is a concept made by a **** psyche wishing for parental guidance. All organisms are reactionary creatures, and the reactions of those creatures are what humanity deems experience/meanings and reality. Only unreal/fantasy is the realm of the supernatural. To quote old Albert," It is time for humanity to grow up." Your logic above is faulty, all is nature as defined by a biological subject. In the absence of a conscious/biological subject, the physical world is utterly meaningless.

There is far more to it than that popeye1945 because all of the sciences are interconnected.

All the sciences are connected, and relative to one thing, the biological consciousness of the human subject.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑December 27th, 2023, 11:33 pm

Sushan wrote: ↑December 27th, 2023, 4:46 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑December 27th, 2023, 4:06 am

Sushan wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2021, 3:08 pm The author argues that we, humans, are not superior than any other animals. We too have basic needs like sex, food and shelter like them. But we have made agreements and laws among us making polygamy, killing others for foods, etc, sins. So the point that the author is trying to prove is that sins are not defined by divine laws, but only by mere agreements among humans. Do you agsree with this point of view? Are sins merely man-made laws?

Sushan,

Sins are the stuff of judgment and dependent entirely upon the belief in a supernatural being. This supernatural being of your choice, then bestowing upon us the free will of our actions. These are both absurd, simplistic, and convenient. Sin would be legitimate if it involves violating the laws of the morality of a given society/culture. These violators are then seen as criminals or monsters, who violate the definition of humanity. Only life can create meaning, so what we do to our fellows, mutual selves, we do to ourselves. Free will is nonsense when one considers the complexities involved. For healthy individuals context defines, for people born of ill health, responsibility lies with nature, and the understanding of the individuals peers. The day we give up the concept of being in violation of some supernatural power with a bad disposition, we will make an evolutionary step toward sanity.

Thank you for your insight, and I will address two points from what you have highlighted in your response.

The suggestion that free will is an oversimplified concept when considering the complexities of human behavior is a profound one. This viewpoint aligns with the determinism argument in philosophy, which posits that every event, including human actions, is determined by preceding events and conditions. In this light, the notion of moral responsibility and sin becomes complex. If our actions are the result of various factors beyond our control, such as genetics, upbringing, and societal influences, how accountable are we for these actions? This deterministic perspective challenges the traditional notion of sin as a clear-cut choice between right and wrong. How should we then approach the concept of sin and moral responsibility in light of these complexities?

The idea of evolving beyond the concept of sin as a violation of a supernatural power’s laws presents an interesting evolutionary perspective on morality. This view suggests a shift towards a more secular and scientifically grounded understanding of moral behavior. As societies progress and embrace scientific explanations for human behavior, the traditional religious frameworks of sin might be reinterpreted or even become obsolete. This evolution could lead to moral standards being more closely tied to societal well-being and ethical reasoning rather than religious doctrines. In this context, how might our understanding of moral actions and sin evolve? Will this lead to a more rational and humane approach to moral judgments, or could it lead to moral ambiguity without the anchor of religious doctrines?

How do you envision the future of moral standards as we move towards a more secular and scientifically oriented understanding of human behavior?

Humanity must have the courage to acknowledge the overwhelming complexity of existence, and with that give up the absurd concept of free will. The religious traditions of the West are totally dependent upon this concept, for without it there is no sin, no control over the populace, that might be a healthy advance. The other major problem is what to do with those who violate the human standards of a given society, without free will our perspective is utterly changed. We know with the lack of free will; we must still protect society from those who are dangerous to the public, and society at large. We come into this world without an identity, with only the innate knowledge of our evolutionary development. We are that which experiences, we are life. It is only through experiencing the context we find ourselves in, that we engage in an endless process of identity formation only to culminate in death. So, assuming the health of the new life, it is biology defined by context that give us the happenstance occurrence of the processes of identity formation which determines the character of the individual. The complexity of one's biology alone should rule out the concept of free will, and add to that the mind-blowing complexity of the cosmos. Even our apparent reality is a complex relational biological readout, it is a music played by the cosmos on its instrument biology. This melody is only heard by the subject/instrument biology. This is the ultimate context defines, where is free will here, where free will is not ignorance, it is arrogance, or perhaps both.

Your response's stance on the rejection of free will raises profound questions about moral responsibility. While it's compelling to consider the extent to which our actions are determined by biology and environment, completely negating free will may not necessarily negate moral responsibility. The key lies in finding a middle ground that recognizes the influence of biological and environmental factors, yet still upholds a degree of personal agency.

Let's consider an example: addictive behaviors. Research shows that genetics and environmental factors play a significant role in addiction. However, treatment and recovery often involve personal choice and effort, indicating a blend of determinism and agency. This suggests that while our actions may be influenced, they're not entirely predetermined.

In a society leaning towards determinism, the approach to moral responsibility, justice, punishment, and rehabilitation would indeed undergo a significant shift. If actions are seen primarily as the result of biological and environmental determinants, our justice system might focus more on rehabilitation and understanding the underlying causes of behaviors, rather than purely on punitive measures. This approach could lead to more empathy-driven and restorative justice systems.

However, this doesn't mean absolving individuals of all responsibility. For instance, in cases of violent crimes, while understanding the perpetrator's background is crucial, it doesn’t negate the need for accountability and the protection of society. The challenge is in balancing an understanding of determinism with the need for personal and societal safety.

Finally, considering the interplay of biology and personal experience, it's essential to recognize that while our biological makeup sets certain parameters, our experiences, choices, and actions within these parameters significantly shape our identity and character. For instance, twins with identical genetics often develop distinct personalities and make different life choices, underscoring the role of personal experiences.

Good_Egg wrote: ↑December 28th, 2023, 5:32 am A lot to disagree with here.

On free will, it seems that most of us have the experience of being tempted to do something, that we think we shouldn't do, and then either resisting or giving in to that temptation.

So that while it's very true that reality is complex, the fact that we find it hard to conceive of what free will is and how it comes about doesn't invalidate that experience. Philosophy should explain our experience, not deny its reality because it doesn't fit our necessarily-simplified ideas. Denying the data so as to fit the model isn't the right way to go.

On religion, it's a misunderstanding (or as they might say nowadays a "straw man") to dismiss sin as the arbitrary commands of a non-existent supreme being. Thomas Aquinas and others saw "sin" as referring to objective morality baked into the structure of the universe, independent of revelation, and perceivable by unbelievers. "Sin" can be read as "crime against moral law" without postulating any particular knowledge of the lawgiver.

On sin, yes there is a need to think about intention and consequences. But the western tradition identifies a third factor - the inherent quality of the act. So that, for example, if Alfie sets out to murder Bruno for what he (Alfie) considers to be good reason, and things happen to fall out for the best, then there's still a wrong there. The chosen action may or may not be the least-wrong of all those that Alfie considered, but it's still a wrong, a sin, a breach of Bruno's rights.

Your point about free will aligns with the legal principle of mens rea, the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing in committing a crime. This principle is foundational in legal systems worldwide and acknowledges the complexity of free will. For example, in criminal law, the difference between premeditated murder and manslaughter hinges on the degree of intent and deliberation, reflecting the legal system's recognition of human agency and decision-making.

Regarding objective morality and its relation to religious concepts of sin, we can look at social contract theory. Philosophers like Thomas Hobbes and John Locke proposed that moral and political obligations are dependent upon a contract or agreement among individuals to form society. For instance, laws against murder are not just religious edicts but are grounded in the social contract to ensure mutual safety and order. This aligns with Aquinas' view that sin can be understood as a crime against moral law, recognizable even outside religious contexts.

The western legal tradition's focus on the inherent quality of acts, intentions, and consequences can be illustrated through the concept of human rights. For instance, international human rights law considers certain acts, like genocide or torture, inherently wrong, regardless of the perpetrator's intentions or the consequences. This reflects the idea that some actions are intrinsically violative of human dignity and rights, akin to the concept of 'sin' in moral philosophy.

Given these points, I would like to throw several questions at you at once.

1. How do we reconcile the legal acknowledgment of free will with scientific findings suggesting biological and environmental determinants of behavior?
2. In a secular society, how can we derive a universal objective morality without reliance on religious doctrines?
3. Can we establish a global ethical standard that acknowledges the inherent quality of certain acts as 'wrong' while respecting cultural diversity?

Yuvvi wrote: ↑December 28th, 2023, 9:13 am The perspective that "sins are merely man-made agreements" suggests that moral wrongs are constructs of human societies rather than universally defined. While societal norms and religious teachings often shape what's considered sinful, the concept of sin varies across cultures. For some, it reflects ethical guidelines or spiritual principles, while for others, it's a product of human interpretation. This idea underscores the subjective nature of morality, acknowledging that perceptions of sin are contingent upon cultural, religious, and individual beliefs.

It's clear that the concept of sin does indeed vary across cultures and is heavily influenced by societal norms and religious teachings. This variability highlights the subjective nature of morality and raises important questions about the universality of ethical principles.

One way to approach this is by examining the concept of moral relativism versus moral universalism. Moral relativism suggests that what is considered morally right or wrong is determined by specific cultures or societies and thus can vary greatly. On the other hand, moral universalism argues that there are some fundamental ethical principles that are universally applicable, regardless of cultural or societal specifics.

To further this discussion, we can consider the implications of both views. If we lean towards moral relativism, we might ask: How do we navigate moral conflicts between different cultural or societal norms? On the other hand, if we consider moral universalism, we might explore: Are there certain actions or principles that can be universally considered 'sins' or morally wrong, irrespective of cultural or societal context?

Furthermore, how do these perspectives impact global issues such as human rights, where certain principles are argued to be universally applicable? For instance, actions like genocide or torture are widely condemned, suggesting a certain degree of moral universalism.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on whether some aspects of morality, or what some might call 'sin', could be considered universal, or if all moral judgments are indeed contingent on cultural and societal contexts.

rahulverma wrote: ↑December 29th, 2023, 7:06 am All sins are not equal in the eyes of God because sins vary in severity. According to Proverbs 6:16-19, there are seven specific sins that are detestable to God.

While Proverbs 6:16-19 lists specific sins as detestable, this viewpoint is rooted in a particular religious tradition and may not resonate universally across different cultures and belief systems.

Let's delve into the specifics of Proverbs 6:16-19 and examine it critically. The passage lists seven things that are detestable to God:

1. Haughty eyes
2. A lying tongue
3. Hands that shed innocent blood
4. A heart that devises wicked schemes
5. Feet that are quick to rush into evil
6. A false witness who pours out lies
7. A person who stirs up conflict in the community

While these principles might resonate with many, especially within the Judeo-Christian context, their interpretation and application can vary significantly across different cultures and belief systems. For instance:

1. Haughty Eyes: Pride or arrogance (symbolized by haughty eyes) is often viewed negatively, but the definition of what constitutes arrogance can differ greatly. In some cultures, assertiveness or self-confidence, which could be misinterpreted as pride, is encouraged.

2. A Lying Tongue: While dishonesty is generally frowned upon, there are cultural nuances. Some societies might accept or even expect certain forms of deceit in specific contexts (like white lies for politeness).

3. Hands That Shed Innocent Blood: The prohibition against harming the innocent is nearly universal, but the definition of 'innocence' can vary. For example, in times of war, the concept of innocence can become muddied.

4. A Heart That Devises Wicked Schemes: What constitutes a 'wicked scheme' is subjective. Business tactics considered shrewd in one society might be seen as unethical in another.

5. Feet Quick to Rush into Evil: The interpretation of 'evil' is highly variable and often context-dependent. Actions deemed necessary or heroic in one context might be considered 'evil' in another.

6. A False Witness Who Pours Out Lies: Perjury is typically illegal, but the moral weight given to lying can depend on the situation and the potential harm caused.

7. A Person Who Stirs up Conflict in the Community: While stirring up unnecessary conflict is generally seen as negative, in some contexts, challenging the status quo or provoking thought can be valuable and necessary for social progress.

While these 'sins' provide a moral framework in certain religious contexts, their universality is questionable given cultural and situational variances. They also don't encompass the entire spectrum of moral behavior in different societies. For a truly comprehensive moral discussion, it's crucial to consider a wider range of perspectives and principles.

From a logical standpoint, the concept of sin, especially in its ranking or severity, is largely subjective and varies greatly depending on cultural, religious, and individual beliefs. For instance, what is considered a sin in one religion may not be seen as such in another. Similarly, secular ethics, which rely on reason and humanistic principles rather than divine command, often view moral transgressions through the lens of harm and societal impact rather than divine displeasure.

If we approach this from a philosophical angle, especially from the perspective of moral relativism, we understand that ethical standards are not absolute and can differ based on social, cultural, and individual contexts. Therefore, asserting that certain sins are unequivocally more severe may overlook the diversity of moral understandings across different human societies.

Furthermore, in discussing the severity of sins, we might also want to consider the context in which actions are taken. Often, the intent and circumstances surrounding an action significantly influence how it is morally evaluated.

Do you think these 'sins' can be universally applied, or should we seek to understand morality in a broader, more culturally diverse context?

A Material Girl wrote: ↑December 29th, 2023, 8:59 pm

Yuvvi wrote: ↑December 28th, 2023, 9:13 am The perspective that "sins are merely man-made agreements" suggests that moral wrongs are constructs of human societies rather than universally defined. While societal norms and religious teachings often shape what's considered sinful, the concept of sin varies across cultures. For some, it reflects ethical guidelines or spiritual principles, while for others, it's a product of human interpretation. This idea underscores the subjective nature of morality, acknowledging that perceptions of sin are contingent upon cultural, religious, and individual beliefs.

According to my purely subjective standards of morality, I am as holy as the Holy Virgin Mary could ever be.

Praise the Lord!

AMEN.

Proverbs 21:2 states, “A person may think their own ways are right, but the Lord weighs the heart.” This reflects the idea that people tend to justify their actions and see themselves as righteous in their own eyes, regardless of how those actions might be perceived externally or measured against a more objective moral standard.

Agreeing with your post, I'd like to delve into the dangers of relying solely on subjective moral standards. Without universal moral benchmarks, ethical relativism can lead to a society where actions are justified based on personal or cultural beliefs, regardless of their potential harm. For instance, practices considered unethical or harmful in one culture might be justified in another under the guise of cultural norms, leading to moral conflicts.

This lack of universal standards can hinder global efforts to address issues like human rights violations. If every individual or society sets their own moral compass, reaching consensus on what constitutes ethical behavior becomes challenging. This can impede the establishment of common ground in international law and human rights, where certain principles are argued to be universally applicable, such as the prohibition of torture or genocide.

I wonder, if everyone were to follow their subjective moral standards, how would we decide whose "inner Holy Virgin Mary" gets to call the shots in a morally ambiguous situation?

A Material Girl wrote: ↑December 29th, 2023, 9:05 pm

rahulverma wrote: ↑December 29th, 2023, 7:06 am
All sins are not equal in the eyes of God because sins vary in severity.

According to Proverbs 6:16-19, there are seven specific sins that are detestable to God.

I agree with you, my dear Rahul.

What do you think about the following two verses from the Holy Bible: viewtopic.php?p=452114#p452114

I am sorry, but I cannot find the verses that you mentioned in the given link. Could you please mention the verses here.

Thank you

Good_Egg wrote: ↑January 1st, 2024, 6:09 am

Yuvvi wrote: ↑December 28th, 2023, 9:13 am This idea underscores the subjective nature of morality, acknowledging that perceptions of sin are contingent upon cultural, religious, and individual beliefs.

It's true that ideas of sin vary across individuals. (Only individuals have minds, only minds can perceive). And that culture is a factor causing some of this variation.

But describing the apprehension of moral rightness or wrongness as a perception implies that there is something there to be perceived. Which can be mis-perceived. You can sin unknowingly, if what you do is sinful but at the time you do not perceive it as such. Or you can sin deliberately, in full knowledge that what you do is wrong.

The alternative is that ideas of moral rightness or wrongness are chosen by each mind, as A Material Girl is clearly choosing to do. An agreement, in the sense of the thread title, is something chosen by the parties involved, is an act of the will.

Take any act that would be widely considered sinful. Such as Herod ordering the massacre of young children. To say that that is a sin is to say either that:
- you perceive it as wrong, or
- that you have - essentially arbitrarily - decided that it is wrong.

It's possible for you to reason that it is wrong, but the data that forms the basis for your reasoning (the Ought premise of your argument) is either a perception or an act of will - this just pushes the dilemma one step further back.

(Whether or not that act of Herod actually happened is beside the point; it's just an example).

Your post raises a thought-provoking point about the nature of sin and moral judgment.

Let's consider the role of cultural and societal norms in shaping our moral perceptions. For example, consider practices like slavery or the subjugation of women, which were historically perceived as acceptable or even moral in certain cultures but are now widely condemned. This shift demonstrates how societal evolution impacts our collective moral perceptions.

Your example of Herod's massacre highlights the dilemma of moral absolutes versus moral relativism. On one hand, if we treat moral judgments as perceptions, we acknowledge that these perceptions can be flawed or influenced by the context. On the other hand, treating moral judgments as acts of will could imply a degree of arbitrariness, where anything could be justified based on individual or collective will.

This leads us to the question of whether there are universal moral truths or principles. Philosophers like Immanuel Kant argued for moral absolutism with his categorical imperative, suggesting that some actions are inherently right or wrong, regardless of context or perception.

Yet, modern ethical discussions often incorporate a blend of deontological (duty-based) and consequentialist (outcome-based) principles, suggesting that both the nature of the act and its consequences matter.

How do you see us reconciling these two views - the perception of moral acts versus the will to determine their rightness or wrongness?

Good_Egg wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2024, 7:30 am

Good_Egg wrote: ↑January 1st, 2024, 6:09 am To say that that is a sin is to say either that:
- you perceive it as wrong, or
- that you have - essentially arbitrarily - decided that it is wrong.

It's possible for you to reason that it is wrong, but the data that forms the basis for your reasoning (the Ought premise of your argument) is either a perception or an act of will - this just pushes the dilemma one step further back.

If we unpack this idea of social agreement as the basis of the concept of sin, what do we see ?

We see individuals both receiving and transmitting ideas within their community.

People deciding to teach their children or preach to their neighbours that some act (maybe eating meat as an example?) is sinful. And doing so because they perceive this to be true, or reason from other perceptions that it is true.

People perceiving meat-eating to be sinful (or reasoning so from other perceptions). And perceive thus because this is what their parents and other people in their culture tell them.

Seems like we're deep into chickens and eggs here. What each person transmits on to others is based on what they have received.

In the case of "core morality" - the wrongness of deceit, theft, murder etc - the origin point of this process is untraceably far back in prehistory. But in the case of more modern ideas - perhaps the most recent being the idea that "misgendering" is a sin - it should be obvious that there has to be an originator.

Did that originator have a slightly-new perception of what is right and wrong ? Or did they play God by deciding ex nihilo ?

Society has no mind; it cannot originate anything. Communities have cultures, and a culture is a medium for the transmission of ideas.

Your post offers a nuanced exploration of how social agreements and cultural norms shape our understanding of sin. I would like to focus on parts from your post and reply.

The concept of core morality, such as the universally acknowledged wrongness of deceit and murder, is intriguing. It suggests an innate moral understanding, potentially rooted in evolutionary or biological imperatives. For example, the prohibition against murder can be seen as essential for the survival and cohesion of human groups. However, cultural interpretations can vary significantly. For instance, in the context of war or self-defense, the act of killing may be perceived differently. This variance highlights the complex interplay between seemingly innate moral principles and cultural contexts.

The emergence of contemporary moral ideas, like the wrongness of misgendering, suggests an evolution in societal values. These ideas often stem from social movements or thought leaders who articulate and advocate for changes in societal norms. Consider the civil rights movement, which profoundly shifted societal attitudes towards race and equality. Similarly, the environmental movement has reshaped our views on sustainability and our relationship with the natural world. The LGBTQ+ rights movement has significantly influenced perceptions of gender identity and expression, leading to a broader societal understanding and acceptance of these issues.These changes in moral perception don't arise in a vacuum but are responses to evolving societal needs and understanding.

In your opinion, how do societal changes influence the emergence of new moral norms, and how do these norms gain widespread acceptance? What role do individual thought leaders and social movements play in challenging and reshaping core moral values?

Joshua10 wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2024, 10:21 am I don't agree no, because I don't agree with +=- and -=+ philosophy.

Equal but Opposite forces exist in reality and we know that they don't cancel out so we know that +=- and -=+ philosophy does not apply to nature.

So sin cannot be man made.

Your argument that sin cannot be man-made because it doesn't align with the +=- and -=+ philosophy of equal but opposite forces in nature presents an interesting perspective. However, I'd like to offer a different viewpoint.

The principles of physical forces (+=- and -=+) are fundamental in physics, governing tangible, observable phenomena. However, moral concepts like sin operate in the realms of psychology, society, and philosophy, which are abstract and not directly governed by physical laws. While natural laws are consistent and universally observable, moral constructs like sin vary widely across cultures and religious beliefs. This variation suggests that sin is more a product of human agreement and cultural interpretation than a natural law.

If we were to apply the principle of equal and opposite reactions (+=- and -=+) to morality, it would imply that every moral action has an equal and opposite immoral counteraction. However, this isn't observable in moral behavior. For example, an act of kindness doesn't necessarily create an equal and opposite act of unkindness, indicating that morality doesn't follow the predictable patterns of physical forces.

The concept of sin is highly subjective, changing across different cultures and religious beliefs. If sin were a natural law like physical forces, it would be uniform and universally recognized, independent of human culture. Yet, what one culture or religion considers sinful might be acceptable or even virtuous in another. This diversity in moral standards suggests that sin is indeed shaped by human societies and beliefs, rather than being a universal natural law.

Given these considerations, would you agree that just as the laws of physics like +=- and -=+ govern the physical world, the concept of sin and morality might be governed by a different set of principles that are more aligned with human psychology and societal norms? In other words, could the subjective and variable nature of sin be akin to a 'social physics', where cultural and individual beliefs play a role similar to fundamental forces in shaping our moral universe?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2024, 12:55 am

Joshua10 wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2024, 10:21 am I don't agree no, because I don't agree with +=- and -=+ philosophy.

Equal but Opposite forces exist in reality and we know that they don't cancel out so we know that +=- and -=+ philosophy does not apply to nature.

So sin cannot be man-made.

Joshua,

All meaning is relative to biology, in the case of sin, it is a man-made concept. It is a concept made by a **** psyche wishing for parental guidance. All organisms are reactionary creatures, and the reactions of those creatures are what humanity deems experience/meanings and reality. Only unreal/fantasy is the realm of the supernatural. To quote old Albert," It is time for humanity to grow up." Your logic above is faulty, all is nature as defined by a biological subject. In the absence of a conscious/biological subject, the physical world is utterly meaningless.

I find myself in agreement with you.

The notion that all meaning, including sin, is relative to biology suggests that our moral frameworks are deeply rooted in our human nature. This aligns with the idea that concepts like sin are human-made, reflecting our intrinsic desires and societal norms. For example, the shifting attitudes towards practices like polygamy or dietary choices across different cultures highlight how societal norms shape our understanding of sin.

Furthermore, the postulation that humans, as reactionary organisms, shape our perceptions of right and wrong through our interactions and experiences within our communities reinforces the view of sin as a social construct. Consider how societal reactions to advancements in LGBT rights have evolved over time, indicating a change in what is deemed morally acceptable or 'sinful.'

Lastly, the argument that the physical world is meaningless without a conscious observer brings an existential dimension to our discussion. It suggests that sin holds significance only within human consciousness. This perspective is exemplified by how religious and non-religious individuals differently interpret actions like blasphemy or sacrilege, based on their beliefs.

I would like to hear your thoughts on, in recognizing the subjectivity of moral judgments, how should we approach ethical decisions in a diverse and evolving society?

FranciscoJoaquim wrote: ↑January 18th, 2024, 1:22 am I really don't know what to say about this, but one thing I do know is that even if it were an agreement, it already helps some people to be in line and think that if they do something wrong they will be punished.

Your perspective raises an interesting point about the practical applicability of the concept of sin. While it's true that the idea of sin can function as a social tool to promote ethical behavior, its effectiveness and moral implications warrant deeper examination.

Firstly, consider the role of sin in religious contexts. Historically, religions have used the concept of sin to guide moral behavior, often with the promise of reward (heaven) or punishment (hell). This approach can be effective in maintaining social order and discouraging harmful actions. However, it's important to question if this adherence to morality is genuinely internalized or merely a response to fear of punishment. For example, the decline in certain criminal activities in highly religious societies might reflect this effect.

Conversely, when we look at secular societies where morality is not tied to religious doctrine, we still observe ethical behavior. This suggests that morality can be intrinsic and not solely dependent on religious or externally imposed concepts of sin. The development of legal systems and societal norms in these contexts illustrates how morality can be upheld without the religious notion of sin. Scandinavian countries, known for their high secularism, consistently rank high in global happiness and low in crime rates, indicating that a society can maintain ethical standards without relying heavily on the concept of sin.

How do you think societies can foster ethical behavior without over-relying on the notion of sin? Do you believe intrinsic morality can be cultivated independently of religious doctrines?