Philosophy Discussion Forums

Felix wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 2:28 pm

Thinking critical: Our subjective experiences are influenced by our own biases and predispositions, our senses can fool the mind into seeing, experiencing and believing things which aren't necessarily as they appear to be.

I wasn't speaking of sensory perception, but as I said, some of us are self aware enough to distinguish between true and delusory perceptions. Your assertion that all theists are deluded by their own mental prejudices exemplifies the tendency towards mental arrogance that I had noted in atheists.

I have asserted no such thing, I have simply pointed out the problem I see with subjective experiences in that they can be potentially influenced by other factors which can mislead our perception of reality. So no this not mental arrogance, more so mental transparency. Transparent for the fact that I accept the possibility that experiences differ between individuals indicating perception is not necessarily the best tool for attempting to understand the nature of reality.

Trouble is with Buridan's Ass, DM, is that one may completely ignore the God issue one way or another without much consequence, while the ass ignore the hay at its peril. The equivalence is false. In fact, I suggest that most theists and atheists do exactly that - they simply ignore the issue of belief and non belief and get on with their lives.

Some theists seem to consider there to be an opportunity cost, where people are wantonly foregoing the opportunity to tap into higher consciousness. They are missing out. However, the theists who make such claims do not strike me as impressive people - not especially patient, kind, supportive, understanding or bright - just fairly usual. So it's easy for secular thinkers to figure they are not missing out on too much.

People need to see advocates for belief "walk the walk" before they take them seriously - to display exceptional qualities. Most times we don't see this at all, quite the contrary. The most impressive feat of faith I have seen was by a couple whose daughter had been raped and murdered, and they forgave the perp. They really did let it go, and even visited him in prison. Extraordinary and impressive. They really did live by JC's ideas but it seems to me that most theists these days - at least the ones in the public eye, Trumpian evangelist types - prefer the OT's outmoded "eye for an eye". The former was operating at a higher level of morality than normal while Trumpian evangelists are the opposite, happy to lie and hate to their hearts' content with nary a thought about what Jesus might have wanted if he existed.

Greta wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 11:38 pm Trouble is with Buridan's Ass, DM, is that one may completely ignore the God issue one way or another without much consequence, while the ass ignore the hay at its peril. The equivalence is false.

Thousands of years of human progress belies your claim.

Mark1955 wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 12:07 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 6:41 am

That's a bit of a silly position.
Let's say I was agnostic about the existence of a civilisation of men on the moon. Would you not say I was daft?
Since there is nothing of whatever kind to indicate that "The Universe" is a thing for which it would be possible to attribute a purpose, then why on earth would you declare yourself agnostic about it?

Suppose this universe is a construct of a higher species for the purpose of research into the evolution of something, then it has the purpose the constructor imbued it with.

Just suppose for a moment that cattle are hyper-intelligent, and just pretending to be dumb herbivores?
But they allow themselves to be eaten, I hear you say!
But cows can transcend their physical forms and allow themselves to be eaten so as to avoid detection - they move their consciousness into new born calves!
Are you agnostic about their intelligence?

We have as much conception of this as we presume a bacteria has of the theory of general relativity because we just don't have the sensory capability. Bacteria were around long before man but we didn't know they existed until a couple of hundred years ago, viruses even less; "...heaven and earth Horatio' as some bloke wrote.

Nothing you say changes what I say.

Dark Matter wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 3:02 am

Greta wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 11:38 pm Trouble is with Buridan's Ass, DM, is that one may completely ignore the God issue one way or another without much consequence, while the ass ignore the hay at its peril. The equivalence is false.

Thousands of years of human progress belies your claim.

I want to expound a little on my brief response to Greta.

According to the WHO, suicide rates have increased by 60% over the last 45 years. Commonsense would suggest that the 'sense of self' must be at the heart of the problem.

Greta's blind hate for Trump and his supporters is a kind of religion, a god, that fills the emptiness of indecision and feeling lost. Without it, purpose and self-belief would vanish; she(?) would share the fate of Buridan's Ass.

The human being cannot live in a condition of emptiness for very long: if he is not growing toward something, he does not merely stagnate; the pent-up potentialities turn into morbidity and despair, and eventually into destructive activities.

Here's an interview with Rollo May:

If the above video is too long or if you find it boring, here's a summary of May's work:

"The relationship between commitment and doubt is by no means an antagonistic one. Commitment is healthiest when it is not without doubt but in spite of doubt."

Dark Matter wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 2:13 pm

Dark Matter wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 3:02 amThousands of years of human progress belies your claim.

I want to expound a little on my brief response to Greta.

According to the WHO, suicide rates have increased by 60% over the last 45 years. Commonsense would suggest that the 'sense of self' must be at the heart of the problem.

What you call "commonsense" is intellectual laziness and incompetence in the use of logic. Have you not heard of "correlation does not equal causation"? Have you not heard of multi-causal issues? Seemingly not. By the way, have you checked changes in world population and equality in the last half century?

Dark Matter wrote:Greta's blind hate for Trump and his supporters is a kind of religion, a god, that fills the emptiness of indecision and feeling lost. Without it, purpose and self-belief would vanish; she(?) would share the fate of Buridan's Ass.

I see that you are still in contact with Simone Weil's biggest fan since I was only outspoken about Trump on the one forum that has not yet banned him, and I have left the forum due to his toxicity. You even copied his exact term re: me and Trump - "blind hatred" I suggest that you stop being his sock puppet, remove his hand from up your backside, and try speaking for yourself.

Now that you mention Trump, though, the hatred is not blind. I hate liars and Trump is an outrageously and outstandingly brazen liar.

I also hate corruption and Trump refused to submit to a tax audit or properly separate his business interests from government, and has made numerous decisions to boost is own wealth and is currently working to undermine democratic checks and balances.

I also hate misogyny, and Trump has quite a history there.

I also hate racism - and Trump's hatred of blacks and browns is well documented.

I also hate bullies, and Trump is a notorious bully. He doesn't even give to charity.

I hate cheating - by burning through the most easily obtained natural resources without thought about conservation or regeneration so as to look good in the short term. What he's doing is a recipe for an economic bubble because it's unsustainable. The bubble has started and I expect it to cause a crash in the next decade, when all the easily-mined and cut down resources are used.

You clearly do approve of Trump's lying, corruption, authoritarianism and racism. It's a scornful disregard of Jesus's teachings of love and understanding. Jesus was a hippie, a leftie, a snowflake and a bleeding heart in today's reactionary parlance.

Where is the goodwill, patience, kindness or understanding? Isn't that what religious people are supposed to strive for? By contrast, you strike me as just another conservative political animal, but with a side interest in mystical metaphysics.

Dark Matter wrote:

The human being cannot live in a condition of emptiness for very long: if he is not growing toward something, he does not merely stagnate; the pent-up potentialities turn into morbidity and despair, and eventually into destructive activities.

You have this backwards. There is absolutely no need for religion to make our lives meaningful and it is religion that creates stagnation through rigidity.


Theists on forums are always talking about how awful life is without religion. It appears that theists personally have issues and existential angst that they feel has been alleviated by religion. So they wrongly assume that everyone feels empty inside until filled by religion. It's akin to a neurotic being helped by psychotherapy and consequently believing that everyone needs psychotherapy.

Such hate and vitriol as yours, Greta, is irrational and will not be dignified with a response.

DM pretending not to be a hater When did one of the forum champs in hatred and vitriol change? An hour ago? Come to think of it, since when have you been dignified? You are one of the most prolific at getting down and dirty with harsh rhetoric.

Why not just admit that you hate agnosticism and agnostics for the same reason as you hate atheists and atheism - because it's different to you?

There is no rational reason to object to agnosticism. It's the most harmless attitude.

Greta wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 11:29 pm There is no rational reason to object to agnosticism. It's the most harmless attitude.

That’s what Buridan's Ass says, too.

Dark Matter wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 2:24 am

Greta wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 11:29 pm There is no rational reason to object to agnosticism. It's the most harmless attitude.

That’s what Buridan's Ass says, too.

I already explained why the Buridan's Ass analogy doesn't work two days ago. Here is a copy and paste to help you out:

Trouble is with Buridan's Ass, DM, is that one may completely ignore the God issue one way or another without much consequence, while the ass ignore the hay at its peril. The equivalence is false. In fact, I suggest that most theists and atheists do exactly that - they simply ignore the issue of belief and non belief and get on with their lives.

Some theists seem to consider there to be an opportunity cost, where people are wantonly foregoing the opportunity to tap into higher consciousness. They are missing out. However, the theists who make such claims do not strike me as impressive people - not especially patient, kind, supportive, understanding or bright - just fairly usual. So it's easy for secular thinkers to figure they are not missing out on too much.

People need to see advocates for belief "walk the walk" before they take them seriously - to display exceptional qualities. Most times we don't see this at all, quite the contrary. The most impressive feat of faith I have seen was by a couple whose daughter had been raped and murdered, and they forgave the perp. They really did let it go, and even visited him in prison. Extraordinary and impressive. They really did live by JC's ideas but it seems to me that most theists these days - at least the ones in the public eye, Trumpian evangelist types - prefer the OT's outmoded "eye for an eye". The former was operating at a higher level of morality than normal while Trumpian evangelists are the opposite, happy to lie and hate to their hearts' content with nary a thought about what Jesus might have wanted if he existed.

So, whatever "hay" you and your Simone Weil-obsessed pal on the other forum are consuming that I am not, it is not needed for health, wealth, happiness, contentment or even spiritual fulfilment. It is not the stuff of life like food or water - more an optional extra, like a spring-headed dashboard figurine of the POTUS, provided at no extra cost with your used car.

Any theist claiming that they have special knowledge or understanding that others don't had better display unusually impressive qualities - humility, patience, maturity, understanding and amity or they will just reveal themselves as peddlers of theistic snake oil. I have met one such impressive theist online in the last decade, so I expect that he was simply a fine individual, no matter what he chose to believe. I have also met a couple of similarly impressive non believers.

You are not the holder of special knowledge, just knowledge that which you enjoy, just like anyone else.

Will you respond with substance as befits a philosophy forum or admit abject defeat in the debate by faking with another Twittery one-liner?

Greta wrote:

Theists on forums are always talking about how awful life is without religion. It appears that theists personally have issues and existential angst that they feel has been alleviated by religion. So they wrongly assume that everyone feels empty inside until filled by religion. It's akin to a neurotic being helped by psychotherapy and consequently believing that everyone needs psychotherapy.

But how can anyone live without a world view? Old fashioned Abrahamic religions are based upon the world view that supreme God does actively intervene in nature, not necessarily only by means of miraculous events but also by long historical developments and by his original intentions.

I think, Greta, that your criticism does not pertain to God as work in progress by humans for the benefit of life on Earth. Albeit with the addendum, life on Earth as long as it lasts.

Sorry Belindi, not quite following you. Are you saying we have a world view given by God whether we recognise this or not? So if I said I'm an atheist and to the best of my knowledge I'm doing ok so clearly God is not a necessary belief in order to do ok, you are saying I'm actually a closet Christian (I assume you are a Christian, feel free to add the God of your choice)?