Philosophy Discussion Forums

Robert66 wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2022, 4:51 pm

Belindi wrote: ↑April 20th, 2021, 2:55 am ... confirmatory bias is dealt with by asking people to imagine how they would feel if the evidence pointed in the other direction. For instance if the evidence pointed in the direction of 'Burning fossil fuels is good for the environment' would you support getting energy from burning fossil fuels? People are asked to consider questions as if, like a jury, they were to consider the evidence alone, without prejudging it.

OK then - how well would this strategy work in dealing with gun control? Imagine for argument's sake that I am an 18 year old Texan, now able to legally buy guns, which I intend doing. The fact that it is so easy to buy guns in my state confirms my bias - it is legal for me to buy a hand gun in a private sale, without any background check or permit required, so why not? The fact that people in my state are being shot at all the time confirms my bias, especially when people like Ted Cruz say that "what stops armed bad guys is armed good guys". He is a Senator, so he must know what he is talking about. Everyone over 18 at my church carries a gun, and they are good Christians.



What will you ask me to consider? That I will be safer if I DON'T buy a gun? My inclination is to think that does not make sense.

That 18 year old would be a hard nut to crack. However if I had the public ear as does the minister at the church I'd teach that the fellowship of the congregation makes each individual stronger to act for the good of all. Then I'd teach how social control that includes non-gun ownership is safer for all individuals. I'd then propose that our little congregation make public via the local press and social media that we support non-gun ownership. I'd encourage dialogue between minister and members of the congregation in the knowledge that my mentor Jesus of Nazareth is already an icon of goodness for the congregation . I'd throw open the doors of dialogue to emergency room medics, and ministers of other sects and denominations.

If I were a school headmaster, or a tutor of student teachers I'd teach similarly, and show where true courage is.

In short, public education is the answer. To ensure the general public are educated about gun control needs individuals who, ideally already influential, will be brave enough to raise their heads above the parapet.

Well put, Sy Borg!

Belindi wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 3:47 am

Robert66 wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2022, 4:51 pm

Belindi wrote: ↑April 20th, 2021, 2:55 am ... confirmatory bias is dealt with by asking people to imagine how they would feel if the evidence pointed in the other direction. For instance if the evidence pointed in the direction of 'Burning fossil fuels is good for the environment' would you support getting energy from burning fossil fuels? People are asked to consider questions as if, like a jury, they were to consider the evidence alone, without prejudging it.

OK then - how well would this strategy work in dealing with gun control? Imagine for argument's sake that I am an 18 year old Texan, now able to legally buy guns, which I intend doing. The fact that it is so easy to buy guns in my state confirms my bias - it is legal for me to buy a hand gun in a private sale, without any background check or permit required, so why not? The fact that people in my state are being shot at all the time confirms my bias, especially when people like Ted Cruz say that "what stops armed bad guys is armed good guys". He is a Senator, so he must know what he is talking about. Everyone over 18 at my church carries a gun, and they are good Christians.



What will you ask me to consider? That I will be safer if I DON'T buy a gun? My inclination is to think that does not make sense.

That 18 year old would be a hard nut to crack. However if I had the public ear as does the minister at the church I'd teach that the fellowship of the congregation makes each individual stronger to act for the good of all. Then I'd teach how social control that includes non-gun ownership is safer for all individuals. I'd then propose that our little congregation make public via the local press and social media that we support non-gun ownership. I'd encourage dialogue between minister and members of the congregation in the knowledge that my mentor Jesus of Nazareth is already an icon of goodness for the congregation . I'd throw open the doors of dialogue to emergency room medics, and ministers of other sects and denominations.

If I were a school headmaster, or a tutor of student teachers I'd teach similarly, and show where true courage is.

In short, public education is the answer. To ensure the general public are educated about gun control needs individuals who, ideally already influential, will be brave enough to raise their heads above the parapet.

Are you kidding? The pastor has a loaded pistol strapped under his cassock! The public ear is hearing (in some places) that teachers should also be armed. The headmaster is hiding in their office, and Jesus aint been seen for some time - if he did return he would probably have to rethink the "turn the other cheek" idea.

Robert66 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 4:01 am

Belindi wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 3:47 am

Robert66 wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2022, 4:51 pm

Belindi wrote: ↑April 20th, 2021, 2:55 am ... confirmatory bias is dealt with by asking people to imagine how they would feel if the evidence pointed in the other direction. For instance if the evidence pointed in the direction of 'Burning fossil fuels is good for the environment' would you support getting energy from burning fossil fuels? People are asked to consider questions as if, like a jury, they were to consider the evidence alone, without prejudging it.

OK then - how well would this strategy work in dealing with gun control? Imagine for argument's sake that I am an 18 year old Texan, now able to legally buy guns, which I intend doing. The fact that it is so easy to buy guns in my state confirms my bias - it is legal for me to buy a hand gun in a private sale, without any background check or permit required, so why not? The fact that people in my state are being shot at all the time confirms my bias, especially when people like Ted Cruz say that "what stops armed bad guys is armed good guys". He is a Senator, so he must know what he is talking about. Everyone over 18 at my church carries a gun, and they are good Christians.



What will you ask me to consider? That I will be safer if I DON'T buy a gun? My inclination is to think that does not make sense.

That 18 year old would be a hard nut to crack. However if I had the public ear as does the minister at the church I'd teach that the fellowship of the congregation makes each individual stronger to act for the good of all. Then I'd teach how social control that includes non-gun ownership is safer for all individuals. I'd then propose that our little congregation make public via the local press and social media that we support non-gun ownership. I'd encourage dialogue between minister and members of the congregation in the knowledge that my mentor Jesus of Nazareth is already an icon of goodness for the congregation . I'd throw open the doors of dialogue to emergency room medics, and ministers of other sects and denominations.

If I were a school headmaster, or a tutor of student teachers I'd teach similarly, and show where true courage is.

In short, public education is the answer. To ensure the general public are educated about gun control needs individuals who, ideally already influential, will be brave enough to raise their heads above the parapet.

Are you kidding? The pastor has a loaded pistol strapped under his cassock! The public ear is hearing (in some places) that teachers should also be armed. The headmaster is hiding in their office, and Jesus aint been seen for some time - if he did return he would probably have to rethink the "turn the other cheek" idea.

Your objection is justified. I doubt if I personally would have the courage to be that sort of pastor. There was one. Martin Luther King who was that sort of pastor within living memory. Don't people in church pray for the courage to do right? The buck has to start somewhere.

I started this thread back in 2012 as a reaction to the Sandy Hook shootings, knowing there would again be a big debate on gun control
in the US - And there was - And as you might expect no sensible solutions are taking place.

No, I haven't suddenly changed my mind and become anti Second Amendment - But isn't it a no brainer to outlaw purchase of
AR-15 type guns to anyone under 21 {The last two major gun massacre incidents were perpetrated by 18 year olds who just walked in off the street to a gun shop and bought the guns and ammo }

So while some members of the Democratic Party once again want to go too far and make many responsible gun owners uncomfortable
- The Conservative Republicans still resist almost all change.

[NOTE THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS BASED UPON CYNICISM]:
In Texas though the Republican view makes sense - Having already outlawed all abortions which will cause the birth of unwanted children,
you can see how a few extra gun deaths won't matter........

After all isn't Texas still the Wild, Wild West No more abortions and no more gun control

UniversalAlien wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 5:57 am I started this thread back in 2012 as a reaction to the Sandy Hook shootings, knowing there would again be a big debate on gun control
in the US - And there was - And as you might expect no sensible solutions are taking place.

No, I haven't suddenly changed my mind and become anti Second Amendment - But isn't it a no brainer to outlaw purchase of
AR-15 type guns to anyone under 21 {The last two major gun massacre incidents were perpetrated by 18 year olds who just walked in off the street to a gun shop and bought the guns and ammo }

So while some members of the Democratic Party once again want to go too far and make many responsible gun owners uncomfortable
- The Conservative Republicans still resist almost all change.

[NOTE THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS BASED UPON CYNICISM]:
In Texas though the Republican view makes sense - Having already outlawed all abortions which will cause the birth of unwanted children,
you can see how a few extra gun deaths won't matter........

After all isn't Texas still the Wild, Wild West No more abortions and no more gun control

Who are "responsible gun owners"? Ideally nobody would buy guns for any purpose. How might the state control responsible gun owners? The less control the better therefore guns should be a last resort for policemen, and those such as farmers who may need to kill animals humanely.

Robert66 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 4:01 amAre you kidding? The pastor has a loaded pistol strapped under his cassock! The public ear is hearing (in some places) that teachers should also be armed. The headmaster is hiding in their office, and Jesus aint been seen for some time - if he did return he would probably have to rethink the "turn the other cheek" idea.

Funny thing. The police and security guards whose job it is to engage criminals were too afraid of being shot to act, yet Republicans expect teachers to be better cops than the cops while also being a teacher. I understand that one or two teacher were shot in the recent school killings in Texas trying to protect the children.

It is reaching the point where teachers will need to be paid danger. If arms use and policing functions and required, then US teachers are due huge pay rises.

Belindi wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 4:46 am

Robert66 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 4:01 am

Belindi wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 3:47 am

Robert66 wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2022, 4:51 pm

OK then - how well would this strategy work in dealing with gun control? Imagine for argument's sake that I am an 18 year old Texan, now able to legally buy guns, which I intend doing. The fact that it is so easy to buy guns in my state confirms my bias - it is legal for me to buy a hand gun in a private sale, without any background check or permit required, so why not? The fact that people in my state are being shot at all the time confirms my bias, especially when people like Ted Cruz say that "what stops armed bad guys is armed good guys". He is a Senator, so he must know what he is talking about. Everyone over 18 at my church carries a gun, and they are good Christians.



What will you ask me to consider? That I will be safer if I DON'T buy a gun? My inclination is to think that does not make sense.

That 18 year old would be a hard nut to crack. However if I had the public ear as does the minister at the church I'd teach that the fellowship of the congregation makes each individual stronger to act for the good of all. Then I'd teach how social control that includes non-gun ownership is safer for all individuals. I'd then propose that our little congregation make public via the local press and social media that we support non-gun ownership. I'd encourage dialogue between minister and members of the congregation in the knowledge that my mentor Jesus of Nazareth is already an icon of goodness for the congregation . I'd throw open the doors of dialogue to emergency room medics, and ministers of other sects and denominations.

If I were a school headmaster, or a tutor of student teachers I'd teach similarly, and show where true courage is.

In short, public education is the answer. To ensure the general public are educated about gun control needs individuals who, ideally already influential, will be brave enough to raise their heads above the parapet.

Are you kidding? The pastor has a loaded pistol strapped under his cassock! The public ear is hearing (in some places) that teachers should also be armed. The headmaster is hiding in their office, and Jesus aint been seen for some time - if he did return he would probably have to rethink the "turn the other cheek" idea.

Your objection is justified. I doubt if I personally would have the courage to be that sort of pastor. There was one. Martin Luther King who was that sort of pastor within living memory. Don't people in church pray for the courage to do right? The buck has to start somewhere.

You are right Belindi. Most churchgoers are doing what is right. The pastor I mentioned was likely of an evangelic church, and these evangelic churches should be ashamed of their opposition to gun law reform.

You are also right about public education. To that end I encourage people, especially US citizens, to learn exactly what is preventing progress toward reasonable gun control. The Republican party, which surprisingly large numbers vote for, is the massive "roadblock" in the way of gun law reform. Obama and Biden proposed reasonable legislative change post-Sandy Hook, and they were voted down in Congress by 6 votes. Today Biden would need the support of 10 Republicans, a snowflakes chance in hell you might say.

Does this mean Republican voters are bad people, or merely gullible, accepting the lies they are fed? I say the latter, In 2000, 38% of Republicans surveyed believed gun rights were more important than gun control. By 2019 that figure had reached 80%.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... ince-2017/

The Republican party has been molded by sinister forces, with many thousands of deaths resulting.

UniversalAlien wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 5:57 am I started this thread back in 2012 as a reaction to the Sandy Hook shootings, knowing there would again be a big debate on gun control
in the US - And there was - And as you might expect no sensible solutions are taking place.

No, I haven't suddenly changed my mind and become anti Second Amendment - But isn't it a no brainer to outlaw purchase of
AR-15 type guns to anyone under 21 {The last two major gun massacre incidents were perpetrated by 18 year olds who just walked in off the street to a gun shop and bought the guns and ammo }

So while some members of the Democratic Party once again want to go too far and make many responsible gun owners uncomfortable
- The Conservative Republicans still resist almost all change.

[NOTE THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS BASED UPON CYNICISM]:
In Texas though the Republican view makes sense - Having already outlawed all abortions which will cause the birth of unwanted children,
you can see how a few extra gun deaths won't matter........

After all isn't Texas still the Wild, Wild West No more abortions and no more gun control

You started this thread as a disgraceful provocation based on lies. While you are having your change of heart, why not admit this?

What exactly would make responsible gun owners uncomfortable about the reform of gun laws? Responsible people would surely see the sense in preventing 18 year olds from purchasing AR-15s, or people with certain mental health issues buying any sort of gun, or requiring gun owners to lock their weapons away, or being checked and registered when buying a gun, and not just just buying it from some local fair, no questions asked.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 5:16 pm

Robert66 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 4:01 amAre you kidding? The pastor has a loaded pistol strapped under his cassock! The public ear is hearing (in some places) that teachers should also be armed. The headmaster is hiding in their office, and Jesus aint been seen for some time - if he did return he would probably have to rethink the "turn the other cheek" idea.

Funny thing. The police and security guards whose job it is to engage criminals were too afraid of being shot to act, yet Republicans expect teachers to be better cops than the cops while also being a teacher. I understand that one or two teacher were shot in the recent school killings in Texas trying to protect the children.

It is reaching the point where teachers will need to be paid danger. If arms use and policing functions and required, then US teachers are due huge pay rises.

You make a good point Sy Borg. The Republican puppet politicians and their evil nut-job masters are not exactly logical in their arguments, however they have been very effective.

I cannot verify the facts but I read that the most important job in the world can attract pay as low as $17 per hour, and a Health Insurance with an upfront payment of $10,000. I am talking about primary grade teachers in Texas.

Uvalde had two security guards and a fence around the school as per standards, but this failed to deter or prevent the murders of children, and two teachers.

Addendum

How much do teachers make an hour in Texas?
On average, Texas teachers make about $19 per hour. Pay typically fluctuates based on experience level, grade level, and more.

https://www.teachersoftomorrow.org/texa ... mum-salary

Sy Borg wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 5:16 pm
Funny thing. The police and security guards whose job it is to engage criminals were too afraid of being shot to act, yet Republicans expect teachers to be better cops than the cops while also being a teacher. I understand that one or two teacher were shot in the recent school killings in Texas trying to protect the children.

There are numerous reasons why generally arming teachers is a bad idea, the chief one being that arming them would not be enough; you'd also have to train them in the use of those arms, many of whom would not be temperamentally suited to that role or willing to fill it. On the other hand, if there are one or two teachers in a school who are comfortable and competent with firearms and already have some training, arming them might make sense, provided they could quickly be alerted to a problem.

Though the police response in Uvalde is still under investigation, the problem was not that they were "afraid to act." They were "just following orders" from the on-scene commander to stand pat --- a hoary excuse that gets more tiresome every time it is invoked.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 7:44 pm Addendum

How much do teachers make an hour in Texas?
On average, Texas teachers make about $19 per hour. Pay typically fluctuates based on experience level, grade level, and more.

https://www.teachersoftomorrow.org/texa ... mum-salary

Not sure how Texas are going to attract good teachers at $19 ph in a dangerous job that requires being armed and ready to make good decisions in life-and-death situations and to kill without hesitation like a seasoned war veteran.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 7:44 pm Addendum

How much do teachers make an hour in Texas?
On average, Texas teachers make about $19 per hour. Pay typically fluctuates based on experience level, grade level, and more.

https://www.teachersoftomorrow.org/texa ... mum-salary

That $19 hourly figure is inconsistent with the average annual figures given for Houston ($60,000) and Austin ($55,000). It is consistent with the given starting salaries for teachers with BAs and 0 years experience.