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[Bermudj]

Dogma: set of firmly held religious, political, or philosophical beliefs.

Dogmatic: expressing or adhering to strong beliefs.

Most people hold strong beliefs about something. Religious dogma, political, philosophical, or otherwise is sure to irritate other people sometimes. That does not mean religious beliefs (which seem to be the one most talked about for destruction) need to be destroyed. All things can be used for good or evil intentions. It is easy to remove oneself from the beliefs of others as adults. Children will suffer all kinds of belief systems while growing into adulthood be it religious- non religious, good-bad manners, proper schooling- improper or no schooling, influences of alcohol, drugs, illnesses, deaths, good-bad touch or rape, and other experiences. While it would be very nice to have perfect parents and societies where all children could grow up unafraid and unhurt, it will not happen in this world of good and evil. So for any group or belief system to blame all problems on religion is a lie. Religion per se should not be considered child abuse but it like all other organizations, teachings/teachers, other people in general, it can be a source of abuse.

Hear, Hear

[Xris]

Dogma: set of firmly held religious, political, or philosophical beliefs.

Dogmatic: expressing or adhering to strong beliefs.

Most people hold strong beliefs about something. Religious dogma, political, philosophical, or otherwise is sure to irritate other people sometimes. That does not mean religious beliefs (which seem to be the one most talked about for destruction) need to be destroyed. All things can be used for good or evil intentions. It is easy to remove oneself from the beliefs of others as adults. Children will suffer all kinds of belief systems while growing into adulthood be it religious- non religious, good-bad manners, proper schooling- improper or no schooling, influences of alcohol, drugs, illnesses, deaths, good-bad touch or rape, and other experiences. While it would be very nice to have perfect parents and societies where all children could grow up unafraid and unhurt, it will not happen in this world of good and evil. So for any group or belief system to blame all problems on religion is a lie. Religion per se should not be considered child abuse but it like all other organizations, teachings/teachers, other people in general, it can be a source of abuse.

So we allow parents to teach their offspring to steal, to abuse their peers? Of course we can not avoid all forms of abuse but we can make our views known on what we consider to be abusive. Progress to perfection comes in simple steps and my objection to indoctrination of the very young in my opinion is a valid point of view.

I have just read religous schools in Louisiana will receive nearly 4 million dollars of tax payers money. So where are the secular laws of federal America now?

[Bermudj]

..impress people & introduce mystery. ...

Isn't life impressive and a mystery?

[Maldon007]

Progress to perfection

There's your problem.

[Bermudj]

Progress to perfection

There's your problem.

Hear, hear

[Teacher4U]

[quote="Bermudj"][/quote]
I do not remember at the age of 2 months being theistic

-- Updated July 27th, 2012, 9:32 am to add the following --

All babies are unaware of how reality works and forms, they don't know if divine intervention is possible, they don't know if cause and effect might rule the universe. When people first start to try to understand and form their view of reality, they start of like our ancestors did, not knowing much, think lightning is from God, not understanding where babies come from.... When new knowledge and wisdom is learned and added into your perspective, after a while all those mental and physical facts help form how you view reality. The further est of these perspectives is an deistic perspective. You start of Theistic, then Atheistic , then Deistic.

Now on Earth we live in a time where we have enough public knowledge and wisdom where it should not take children or adults long to gather enough information to form a atheistic or deistic perspective. In the 21st century, it is said to say that we still have people viewing reality through a theistic perspective, that's sad.

[Maldon007]

Wether it is sad or not is quite subjective.

[Teacher4U]

elaborate?? Maldon007 (i got a tippman A-5 w/ response trigger and flat line barrel system and closable stock)

[Fanman]

Teacher4U,

Teacher4U wrote: In the 21st century, it is said to say that we still have people viewing reality through a theistic perspective, that's sad.

You make it sound as though theism is a form of ignorance? You might be surprised to know that a theist's beliefs can be based upon reason and logic. I'm a theist, I understand that lightning is a part of nature, and I also know where babies come from. How does your theist to atheist to deist theory explain my knowledge?

[Teacher4U]

well fan man lets dive deeper. whats your opinion about where the limitations of cause and effect stop? is it just with physical things in the physical world, does it stretch beyond the physical world and effect the mental and heavenly worlds? Or does it control everything, your position and birth place here, to your position and ranking in heavenly world?

Do you believe in intelligent design, which assumes that our biological form (specifically the human form) was specifically created through evolution? or do you believe our form was a random up bring of cause and effect of evolutionary circumstances (that means we as humans could of had a tail instead of no tail, or instead of two eyes we had one).

Do you believe in God placing your soul in the body you are in currently? Or do you believe, you past life and past actions has place you in that specific position at birth?

Its stuff like that, even being superstitious is a theistic Trait. Now most theistic's in America, are on the last stages of being theistic, there understanding of reality is forming to be an atheistic view, but even then don't stop evolving. then comes deistic perspective. Theistic perspective takes the longest to get over, due to its the beginning view of understanding reality. Most people who stay theistic do it for two reason, because its a family tradition and because of the belief in superstitions. what I would say about that is there are no traditions in perspectives, which means you can still be a christian at the same time of having a atheistic or deistic perspective. I have a deistic perspective and I still celebrate Christmas and so does a lot of atheist. Because we view it as a very wise man was born on that day, and led a lot of people and a society to progress in that era.

[Maldon007]

elaborate?? Maldon007 (i got a tippman A-5 w/ response trigger and flat line barrel system and closable stock)

My point is, your view that belief in god is sad, or viewing reality through the "lens" of a belief in god, being sad is clearly a bias point of view. Sad in what way? Are the people in question sad, or does their belief make them happy?

Couldn't there be, and aren't there likely to be, theists who live their lives, externally, as far as decisions/pursuits/behaviors, very similarly to atheists/agnostics? I am an atheist/agnostic who is fairly conservative, politically and while I don't spend my time kibitzing about god's plan, I waste equally on silly philosophy sites. I play paintball with some devout theists, who have many things in common with me... Our differences in god belief mean very little really.


Nice marker, I am not a big fan of the flatline though, while it lets you shoot faltter, it decreases accuracy. I generally shoot pump, but that is an invert mini I think (can't see pic right now).

[Fanman]

Teacher4U,

I understand what cause and effect is. And I believe that cause and effect operates in all levels of existence, be it our earthly existence or the heavenly existence. For example: The sin of mankind was the cause of Jesus' advent and sacrifice - that his death saved us from sin is the effect. I wouldn't say that cause and effect controls everything, because I believe that God is "The Controller." However, that said, I believe that cause and effect exercises a great deal of control upon this world; I couldn't say how much cause and effect controls the progress of existence in heaven.

Being a theist, of course I believe in intelligent design. I believe in the biblical description of the creation of mankind. I do not believe in reincarnation, and I believe that the soul is the intellect.

I don't think that a theist can have atheistic views and perspectives, since the two positions oppose and contradict one another. I think that you may be conflating understanding of the natural world, with theism, atheism and deism?

[Maldon007]

Wouldn't atheistic and theistic views (other than "there is a god" or "there is not a god") be a subjective term? As in, there are many people who believe in god, who also believe in the big bang, evolution and other sciency stuff. They just see it as god created, as opposed to randomness. I feel I wouldn't have to change many of my views on scientific facts, to become a believer in god... maybe not a southern baptist, but something akin to a christian.

Ie, I could belive god may overrule physical laws at his whim, yet let them be set in stone to the common observer.

[Teacher4U]

fanman, to say God created specifically the human race is a Theistic notion, that notion comes from IGNORANCE of how evolution works.

Let me Quote you, "The sin of mankind was the cause of Jesus' advent and sacrifice - that his death saved us from sin is the effect.", mankind didn't cause Jesus to sacrifice himself, it was the Romans. that's REAL cause and effect. let me guess you also believe the bible was wrote by God? well it was created my Empirer Constantine to reunite the Roman empire under one belief, Roman Catholic.

Do you see how Knowledge and wisdom improves (progress) you veiw of reality.

Your correct on how a person can not be a theistic and atheist and deist at the same time. But everyone can go through the stages of each, the evolution of perspectives gos like this, Theistic, Atheistic, and Deistic. Because people EVOLVE to. They Evolve to become a better person, through searching for knowledge and wisdom.

Maldon007: whats with you and the term "SUBJECTIVE". there is also a different between saying "ok i know whats out there and God created it all (that does nothing for your understanding) (and due to not understanding, we make decision thinking divine intervention will happen)" & " ok i know how the laws of the formula work inside the physical world, even though Gods created the formula, what happens in it is random. (since we all live in a society together, that type of understanding will allow better decision process.)

Why would you think God would overrule Physical Laws, for what and when has this happens? Overruling physical laws is call Divine intervention, that was created because people didn't understand physical world activities.

Maldon: you said "My point is, your view that belief in god is sad, or viewing reality through the "lens" of a belief in god, being sad is clearly a bias point of view. Sad in what way? Are the people in question sad, or does their belief make them happy?

Its not the belief in god, its thinking that God will come down and save us (divine Intervention), to still believe in Divine intervention is sad and a insult to every human being that now has the means to understand what science has already proven. You can still believe in God and believe in everything that we as a human society has learned from science, and it seems like you are having a hard time keeping up in changing your views after you learned something about the physical world. Don't try to damper what you know, so you can fit in a group as in Christians, when you are smarter and more enlighten than they are. How Christianity the church interpreted their scripture or knowledge and wisdom, ends up being within the theistic perspective category.

[Bermudj]

...Its not the belief in god, its thinking that God will come down and save us (divine Intervention), to still believe in Divine intervention is sad and a insult to every human being that now has the means to understand what science has already proven. ...

Well I do believe in divine intervention and I certainly did not follow the general path you described of theistic, atheistic, deistic. Actually I went this way, completely clueless for 49 years, happy go lucky, until I found myself in a quite a predicament, defecating on the streets of London under the influence of Bipolar-I. Then I went to the University of Westminster a place I had worked before, 8 years before, and a colleague who thought I was on holiday suggested I did some tutorials to assist me in paying for my hotel bills. When I began working the course of the illness changed and I got back into life. That to me is divine intervention. So I say thank you God. And from that moment I began to read so I was no longer clueless, no longer happy go lucky and had a direction.

And of course there are many other anecdotal cases like mine.