Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[OnlybutteredPopcorn]

Maybe this is just a silly thought, but I've always doubted that viruses naturally come and have developed on our planet. Ever since I was little, and have seen pictures of viruses, I never really believed those were actually natural disease-causing agents. They look like robots! I don't mean to seem crazy or anything but honestly, no organism created on this Earth, by the Earth, is geometrically perfect. Even the viruses, such as HIV, that don't contain the standard robotic look, are composed of geometrically regular shapes. Other than their appearance, its still being debated as to whether these microorganism are actually alive. Viruses cannot "live" or replicate until they are in their host's (specific) cells. Bacteria can infect a person anywhere, yet viruses target certain cells.

I'm just wondering if anyone else might think that viruses aren't natives to Earth. I'm not saying they were developed by extraterrestrials, but maybe just migrated came from a different planet. I just want to know how anyone feels about this.

[Eckhart Aurelius Hughes]

Considering that viruses are made from DNA and RNA just like the rest of life on this planet, I doubt they had a separate origin than the rest of us. However, exogenesis or panspermia are possibilities for the origin of all life on Earth.

Do you not think the shapes of bacteria are 'too geometrically perfect' in your view to have originated with the rest of life on Earth?

In any case, I bet the appearance of so-called 'geometric perfection' is more of an illusion created by scaling. Indeed, from far away the Earth seems like a fairly simple spherical-like shape, but when we stand on it it seems more diverse, with so-called 'geometric imperfection' like random mountains and valleys.

[OnlybutteredPopcorn]

Considering that viruses are made from DNA and RNA just like the rest of life on this planet, I doubt they had a separate origin than the rest of us. However, exogenesis or panspermia are possibilities for the origin of all life on Earth.

Do you not think the shapes of bacteria are 'too geometrically perfect' in your view to have originated with the rest of life on Earth?

In any case, I bet the appearance of so-called 'geometric perfection' is more of an illusion created by scaling. Indeed, from far away the Earth seems like a fairly simple spherical-like shape, but when we stand on it it seems more diverse, with so-called 'geometric imperfection' like random mountains and valleys.

All organisms are composed of DNA and/or RNA, that doesn't prove that they originated from the Earth. I never said bacteria is geometrically perfect. If you look at bacteria you can see the organic shapes it is composed of. And the Earth is actually a perfect sphere, and the Earth is pretty close to a perfect sphere, but because of all the things on its crust is not perfect. Its not an illusion that the capsule of viruses are geometrically perfect.

[Maldon007]

The earth is not a sphere at all, it is wider at the equator, flatter top to bottom, like any spinning body will be.

Scott said viruses have a similar makup, at the DNA level, so they are probably from the same original organism the rest of us are... He didnt say that means that the original organism originated on earth, read- panspermia.

He also said, and I agree, perfection is generally a factor of scale. As in, the pictures you see of viruses is generally at a scale that enhances their perfect look... zoom in, and you see craigs and defects/imperfections. As the earth looks round and smooth from 100,000 miles away, but from 10 miles away it has mountains/canyons/etc.

[chazwyman]

Maybe this is just a silly thought,

Yep, it is s silly thought. The reason they look like that is that at such magnification to make them 'visible', what you are seeing is structure of macro-molecules. These are made of RNA. Were you to look a the genetic structure of every cell in your body you would see a double helix - this looks like a roller coaster- but that does not mean it came from a amusement park.

Every time a cell reproduces the DNA unzipps into RNA. It is thought that some viruses form from this sort of material that is all over the place- dead meat, in the soil, in water. Microbes tend to be very promiscuous with loose bits of DNA and RNA and can mobilise new forms of themselves by borrowing any thing that works. The micro world is a very different thing to our expereince.

-- Updated Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:40 am to add the following --

All organisms are composed of DNA and/or RNA, that doesn't prove that they originated from the Earth.

But they are here on earth, and are the same as any other life here. You have no reason at all to suggest that they came from outer space.. ooooooooooohh

[Spiral Out]

We are indeed the result of viral action on lesser life forms. Viruses caused adaptive evolutionary changes in these life forms which led to Humans. Viruses are fragments of DNA code and, in my opinion, would have the same origin as us. However, since we are the product of viral action, are viruses also the result of Human action?

[OnlybutteredPopcorn]

Yep, it is s silly thought. The reason they look like that is that at such magnification to make them 'visible', what you are seeing is structure of macro-molecules. These are made of RNA. Were you to look a the genetic structure of every cell in your body you would see a double helix - this looks like a roller coaster- but that does not mean it came from a amusement park.

Every time a cell reproduces the DNA unzipps into RNA. It is thought that some viruses form from this sort of material that is all over the place- dead meat, in the soil, in water. Microbes tend to be very promiscuous with loose bits of DNA and RNA and can mobilise new forms of themselves by borrowing any thing that works. The micro world is a very different thing to our expereince.

-- Updated Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:40 am to add the following --



But they are here on earth, and are the same as any other life here. You have no reason at all to suggest that they came from outer space.. ooooooooooohh

Well it hasn't been proved that they come from Earth. Scientists can't even trace their origins

[chazwyman]

Well it hasn't been proved that they come from Earth. Scientists can't even trace their origins

I think that is wrong too. There is nothing distinct about viruses as they are all made with terrestrial RNA. We can even trace the original of specific viruses from their sources in different countries as they mutate from others. SO what is your evidence that they are extra-terrestrial?

[OnlybutteredPopcorn]

Look up the origin of viruses, and when you find a link that says scientists know where viruses have originated from--not where they mutate, let me know. Thanks.

[Maldon007]

But look up the origin of life on earth, in general, and find just as few certainties.

The way virus propagate more/less eliminate the easier to follow track back through time, that can be found in some other organisms.

Think of it like this- You find two cars you are unfamiliar with, so you ask an expert to tell you the make/model. He checks them thoroughly and says one is a 1956 austin healey 100m & therefore was made in Warwick England, between 1955 & 1956. But the other has parts from 73 different manufacturers, spanning 82 years, was totally parted together, including the frame & engine, and there is absolutely no way to tell where it was made or by who... But it is made of car parts, all from known car companies.

One car's origin tracable, the other not, but both clearly cars, from earth.

[A Poster He or I]

OnlyButteredPopcorn,

I have no idea if you read science fiction, or whether the following information is anything you might consider relevant to the topic, but I thought I'd mention it.

There is a popular science fiction novel End of an Era by Robert Sawyer where scientists discover that viruses do indeed have an extraterrestrial origin. If you decide to read it, don't be put off by the main story which is about a mission through time back to discover why dinosaurs went extinct. The virus angle doesn't make itself clear till later in the book.

[chazwyman]

Look up the origin of viruses, and when you find a link that says scientists know where viruses have originated from--not where they mutate, let me know. Thanks.

Perhaps you can try to do the same. Until you offer evidence that they are extra-terrestrial, then it is safer to assume they are not. There are some crackpot notions that all life came from asteroids or comets , but there is no supporting evidence and begs the question how did life get on to a comet in the first place? Since all the necessary chemistry is here on earth it seems to be unnecessary to posit a less likely hypothesis.

[OnlybutteredPopcorn]

Oh ok thanks for the book, I'll look it up.

And chazwyman, I think the reason why it hasn't been proven because we haven't really looked for it. I'm not saying that virus come from extraterrestrials, but I think there's a good chance. If search for other locations of their origins we might something considering there isn't a lot of proof on earth.

[chazwyman]

Oh ok thanks for the book, I'll look it up.

And chazwyman, I think the reason why it hasn't been proven because we haven't really looked for it. I'm not saying that virus come from extraterrestrials, but I think there's a good chance. If search for other locations of their origins we might something considering there isn't a lot of proof on earth.

You say elsewhere that because you think that god is the basis of every religion they must be right. Well since you think that every religion is the same, then why are you looking for viruses outside the earth when you believe that "god" created the earth?

-- Updated Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:44 pm to add the following --

Oh ok thanks for the book, I'll look it up.

And chazwyman, I think the reason why it hasn't been proven because we haven't really looked for it. I'm not saying that virus come from extraterrestrials, but I think there's a good chance. If search for other locations of their origins we might something considering there isn't a lot of proof on earth.

You say elsewhere that because you think that god is the basis of every religion they must be right. Well since you think that every religion is the same, then why are you looking for viruses outside the earth when you believe that "god" created the earth?

[Maldon007]

Oh ok thanks for the book, I'll look it up.

And chazwyman, I think the reason why it hasn't been proven because we haven't really looked for it. I'm not saying that virus come from extraterrestrials, but I think there's a good chance. If search for other locations of their origins we might something considering there isn't a lot of proof on earth.

What kind of proof do you think there should be, if viruses or life in general, started on earth?