Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[H M]

Infinity as a completed situation would actually render it finite, no matter how huge the set.

I presume you’re envisioning a continuous expansion with the creation of new matter. And then of course it wouldn’t ever be infinite. However if it goes on forever, eventually you’ll begin to get essentially identical galaxies, very troubling to the old Intuition

Max Tegmark introduced that as a "Level 1" type of multiverse in a 2003 Scientific American article titled "Parallel Universes". But I'm not addressing that possibility either way, since he at least admitted at one point that the universe only needed to be "sufficiently large" rather than infinite in a contradictory manner (as in being a closed quantity or completed condition right now or at at any time). "Sufficiently large" is still finite. My only point was that if infinity is reified as some kind of concrete, phenomenal, or physical circumstance -- then the qualification for that being referred to as such should be based on it concerning a perpetually developing "more" over time. If an unknown fixed value or closed/completed situation is implied, no matter how mind-bogglingly large, then it is accordingly finite instead of infinite.

[Dalehileman]

HM perhaps you misunderstand me. I wasn’t insisting on an infinite Universe

If it is infinite then supposedly there are an infinite number of identical galaxies but if it isn’t then depending on how big it is there might be a number of such replications but of course fewer

[Belinda]

Prismatic wrote:

2. The unreliability of intuition concerning infinity is very well demonstrated by Zeno's paradoxes.

3. Intuition is based on the resemblance of present experience to something previously experienced. It often has to be corrected by reason or education.

Re:2:

But what Zeno's paradoxes illustrate is the unreliability of language and reification .

Re:3:

I believe that you are demoting intuition to a synonym for common sense. Reason and education affect intuition which is unconscious reasoning of variable quality, and they also affect common sense which is unsophisticated conscious reasoning.

-- Updated Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:03 am to add the following --

In other words, if the Universe is infinite forever and if anything that can happen, will happen, then at this very moment there must be an infinite number of identical galaxies as well as an infinite number in which I’m sitting here…

The first premise, that the universe is infinite and the second premise that anything that can happen will happen, seem unconnected as well as unknowable except as premises. However, even accepting them for the sake of argument what makes you think your conclusions follow?

… there’s therefore something wrong with your concept of infinity.

There now. It's fixed.

But reification or quantification is about divisibility as well as expansion.(Of e.g. universes).I think that there is a degree to which humans need to use the concept of divisibility . The utilitarian boundary of this degree of divisibility is probably socio-cultural and linguistic which is to say, finity is the view from mortality.**The view from mortality is not what we are dealing with when we are trying to see God, or infinity, which if it is not the mortal human perspective must be the perspective from eternity, because what other perspective is possible? Either the perspective is infinite or it's finite there is no middle.

** Needs anthropological and probably linguistic evidence

[Gulnara]

This discussion reminded me of Alice in Wonderland, when she sees giants, then she shrinks and is around tiny creatures. Her perception of size changes drastically. When people speak of Universe, multiverses, they sound like her: things keep gaining size non stop, and then they turn heads to smaller particles, and everything gets tinier and tinier really fast, again, without the end. May be this dilemma is a result of human biology. It is as if we are encased in a certain detrimental mental pattern and it won't let us to understand the world we are in. I think it could be a side affect of scientific progress rushing ahead of human brain evolution. Then hope is only in the computers, while use of them will not allow the desired brain to evolve. H-mmm. Paradox.

[Prismatic]

This discussion reminded me of Alice in Wonderland, when she sees giants, then she shrinks and is around tiny creatures. Her perception of size changes drastically. When people speak of Universe, multiverses, they sound like her: things keep gaining size non stop, and then they turn heads to smaller particles, and everything gets tinier and tinier really fast, again, without the end. May be this dilemma is a result of human biology. It is as if we are encased in a certain detrimental mental pattern and it won't let us to understand the world we are in. I think it could be a side affect of scientific progress rushing ahead of human brain evolution. Then hope is only in the computers, while use of them will not allow the desired brain to evolve. H-mmm. Paradox.

The human brain has not evolved for a very long time, perhaps 200,000 years—much longer than human civilization has existed—so it is clear that the human brain evolved to deal with basic problems of food and survival, not particle physics and cosmology. The extraordinary efflorescence of human intelligence over the last 50,000 years, a period well after the brain became anatomically modern, is a fascinating puzzle to which several answers have been proposed—tools, language, mimicry, etc. All the evidence is indirect and the inferences from it uncertain.

[Gulnara]

Not enough time for trial and error method. Stepping away from religious world view lives people impatient for reliable scientific answers. Back in history, when people were trying to solve problem of creating fire, they could have been in the same rush to emerge with proper solution. The pioneers of fire handling were under same scrutiny, probably more severe, since failure meant freezing to death of their tribe. Yet, they did it. That lives me hopeful that modern people will be able to crack the code of the universe and, perhaps, save our overgrown tribe in many ways.

[EMTe]

I suggest Intuition is onto it, that there’s therefore something wrong with the concept of infinity

Infinity has two faces - the "intuitive" one and the mathematical one. In maths it looks as something fairly simple, because it is decribed with one letter, an empty symbol that doesnt show at all, just like maths in general doesnt say anything about anything, WHAT infinity is - it only shows that such concept can exist and you can use it to make fancy quotations. Now, when you try to UNDERSTAND what is infinity - here comes the problem, because you can't. You can probably IMAGINE yourself sitting and watching at the sky and thinking - ok, so this all is infinite, imagine yourself flying to the sky, straight ahead, feeling the breeze of air etc., looking at all the clouds, then stars, the whole galaxies etc. and so you fly and fly and fly and this flight lasts FOREVER, because the space is INFINITE. Wait, but how something can last FOREVER and what the f**k it means?

Both concepts - INFINITY and ETERNITY are like ebony and ivory. You cannot understand what is INFINITY if you don't live FOREVER, because if you want to visit the INFINITE universe during your flight you MUST live FOREVER. But, somebody might say, it is still not enough, because when you fly over the INFINITE Universe you are still only at one place at a single moment, so how can you be EVERYWHERE if something has UNLIMITED number of WHERE's? Your debater answers: ok, so if the universe can be infinite I can imagine the creature which is both infinite and ETERNAL, so it lived since ALWAYS, lives EVERYWHERE and will live ETERNALLY, being ALWAYS EVERYWHERE and, of course, FOREVER. And so you are trapped in the eternal conundrum, a game (but the fun game! ) involving creative use of various nominatives, adverbs and adjectives.

I think, my cute philosophying fellas, that you should consider moving the infinity dream to the poetry field, where it in fact belongs.

[Wooden shoe]

Hello all.

Infinity and a sister word forever plus a few like them are just alternatives to saying I/We don't know, we have reached our limits. But we just do not like to admit our limitations, so invent fancy words to hide behind. Perhaps there are no limits to our cosmos, but it has only been a few earth years in which we were able to look farther then a few lightyears, so any talk of, say an infinite universe is fools talk to me.

[Gulnara]

If you walk straight 15000 miles, where will you end up ? Right where you are now. You will "meet" yourself. If you walk an infinity , you'll end up where you are. You are here now. Why bother with crossing an infinity?

[EMTe]

If you walk an infinity , you'll end up where you are. You are here now. Why bother with crossing an infinity?

How can you walk or cross something that doesnt exist? I can as well tell you to catch a smurf and ask you whether it was hard task or not.

[Belinda]

If you walk an infinity , you'll end up where you are. You are here now. Why bother with crossing an infinity?

How can you walk or cross something that doesnt exist? I can as well tell you to catch a smurf and ask you whether it was hard task or not.

But infinity does not ' exist' Things and events that exist are inside infinity. Infinity in the sense of what exists is uncreated whereas existant things and events are manifestly created.There is an infinity of possibilites, some people think, which is unbounded by considerations of time, space or force.

I don't know about Gulnara's comment, but mine properly belongs with Metaphysics.

[EMTe]

Things and events that exist are inside infinity.

I hope it includes smurfs, because I really want one.

[Vick]

Now is the time for all good people. People. People.

In other words, if the Universe is infinite forever and if anything that can happen, will happen, then at this very moment there must be an infinite number of identical galaxies as well as an infinite number in which I’m sitting here contemplating the size of the Megillah for the supposed benefit of a2k but the only difference is that one hair on your head is one quantum unit, say 0.0000001 in. longer and so on ad infinitum (forgive the pun)

Lest you automatically put off ruminations by The Average Clod (me) on the basis, say, of some kind of semantical trickery, it’s not a new concept at all, other thinkers much smarter than I have already proposed it

Only thing different, is that I suggest Intuition is onto it, that there’s therefore something wrong with the concept of infinity

So can you straighten me out

Well, it could be infinite, just like a circle, in that sense.

-- Updated July 9th, 2012, 12:36 am to add the following --

That could also mean that it could repeat itself but not necessarily in the exact same order. In a different sense of infinite-the energy is infinite for example it doesn't disappear, it transforms. So everything that has a beginning has to have an end but if it has no beginning maybe it has no end? ( I think I just confused myself here hahah) For some reason the " I am Alpha and Omega- the beginning and the end"- came to mind Oo

[Belinda]

That could also mean that it could repeat itself but not necessarily in the exact same order. In a different sense of infinite-the energy is infinite for example it doesn't disappear, it transforms. So everything that has a beginning has to have an end but if it has no beginning maybe it has no end? ( I think I just confused myself here hahah) For some reason the " I am Alpha and Omega- the beginning and the end"- came to mind Oo

Exactly, the defining characteristic of the theists' God is that he transcends time because he created time, and maintains time.This means that he is reckoned to be infinite and eternal. If as Vick suggests a person is an atheist, and not even a panentheist, then there is no transcendent creator and maintainer and therefore no beginning and no end.

[EMTe]

the defining characteristic of the theists' God is that he transcends time

This topic is the true Poets' Corner!