Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Dalehileman]

Now is the time for all good people. People. People.

In other words, if the Universe is infinite forever and if anything that can happen, will happen, then at this very moment there must be an infinite number of identical galaxies as well as an infinite number in which I’m sitting here contemplating the size of the Megillah for the supposed benefit of a2k but the only difference is that one hair on your head is one quantum unit, say 0.0000001 in. longer and so on ad infinitum (forgive the pun)

Lest you automatically put off ruminations by The Average Clod (me) on the basis, say, of some kind of semantical trickery, it’s not a new concept at all, other thinkers much smarter than I have already proposed it

Only thing different, is that I suggest Intuition is onto it, that there’s therefore something wrong with the concept of infinity

So can you straighten me out

[Prismatic]

In other words, if the Universe is infinite forever and if anything that can happen, will happen, then at this very moment there must be an infinite number of identical galaxies as well as an infinite number in which I’m sitting here…

The first premise, that the universe is infinite and the second premise that anything that can happen will happen, seem unconnected as well as unknowable except as premises. However, even accepting them for the sake of argument what makes you think your conclusions follow?

… there’s therefore something wrong with your concept of infinity.

There now. It's fixed.

[Dalehileman]

that the universe is infinite and the second premise that anything that can happen will happen, seem unconnected

Well, yes. Even if finite, if anything that can happen, will, then given forever everything possible has happened or will happen an infinite number of times. Of course the interim is usually pretty long

However if also the Universe is infinite, then everything that can happen must be happening at this very moment an infinite number of times

as well as unknowable except as premises

Quite right

However, even accepting them for the sake of argument what makes you think your conclusions follow?

They seem patently obvious

[Stormy]

Continuous is infinity, round and round, different and different, until...guess what?
Just because something repeats, dose not mean it ends.

[Prismatic]

if anything that can happen, will,

The problem is that you have no way of knowing what can happen—the possibilities may be greater or lesser than you imagine.

[Dalehileman]

Pris the possibilities are infinite presumably in steps of one quantum unit. If I am wrong about that and the difference between one galaxy and another proceeds in even smaller steps but if the Universe is infinite there are still an infinite number of galaxies so nearly identical you can’t tell them apart

…infinity being so enormous as beyond conception

Continuous is infinity, round and round, different and different, until...guess what?

Just because something repeats, dose not mean it ends.

Stor you’ll have to clarify that for the benefit of the participant who’s an Average Clod (me)

[Prismatic]

Pris the possibilities are infinite presumably in steps of one quantum unit.

What does that mean? What exactly is one quantum unit?

if the Universe is infinite there are still an infinite number of galaxies so nearly identical you can’t tell them apart

What evidence is there that the universe is infinite in any sense whatever? Supposing that it were infinite, why would there necessarily have to be an infinite number of galaxies nearly identical?

[Dalehileman]

What exactly is one quantum unit?

The smallest possible change

What evidence is there that the universe is infinite in any sense whatever?

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&sugexp=crf& ... .osb&cad=b

why would there necessarily have to be an infinite number of galaxies nearly identical?

If anything that can happen, will happen, then it seems obvious

To me anyhow

[Prismatic]

If anything that can happen, will happen, then it seems obvious To me anyhow

More of your fuzzy thinking. The difficulty is that you do not know what can happen. There may be all kinds of restrictions on what can happen that you are unaware of. Just because you cannot imagine that there are limits to possibilities is no assurance there are none.

[Dalehileman]

There may be all kinds of restrictions on what can happen that you are unaware of.

You are right about that Pris and one of the reasons I so inquire is that being the Devil’s Advocate, I might find someone on this most intelligent forum who can show me exactly how

Still the intuitive suggestion that in an infinite Universe we’ll find identical galaxies is pretty persuasive

--my Intuition of course

[Prismatic]

Still the intuitive suggestion that in an infinite Universe we’ll find identical galaxies is pretty persuasive

When it comes to infinity intuition is notoriously unreliable, no matter how persuasive. Fuzzy thinking can lead you astray faster than a broken GPS.

[H M]

In other words, if the Universe is infinite forever and if anything that can happen, will happen, then at this very moment there must be an infinite number of identical galaxies as well as an infinite number in which I’m sitting here

Infinity as a completed situation would actually render it finite, no matter how huge the set. So an attempt to reify infinity seems to result in a dependency on time or perpetual becoming -- "more" being continually or intermittently added. Whether that consists of division into more sub-units, or added space in the outer direction, or increasing the quantity of concrete entities / content, etc. It would be uncountable or endless not just because of practical limitations in dealing with the size but due to it referring to a never-completed process.

Only thing different, is that I suggest Intuition is onto it, that there’s therefore something wrong with the concept of infinity

The appearance of "something wrong" often ensues from trying to hypostatize abstract objects, generalizations, concepts.... Whatever the noble motive or "it follows from the equations so it must be real" presented.

[Dalehileman]

When it comes to infinity intuition is notoriously unreliable,

Yea Pris but in this area of speculation it’s all we’ve got; while its value is grossly underrated

Infinity as a completed situation would actually render it finite, no matter how huge the set.

Even so HM, given forever wouldn’t you still have an infinite number of virtually identical galaxies, in steps of one quantum unit each

Whatever the noble motive or "it follows from the equations so it must be real" presented.

Right on! and one reason our assumptions based on conventional arithmetic or even frontier domains of advanced math might be flawed. But my point is, the objection of Intuition to the continual production of virtually identical galaxies for instance shouldn’t be rejected out-of-hand

[Prismatic]

Yea Pris but in this area of speculation it’s all we’ve got; while its value is grossly underrated

1. Many notions of the infinite can be made rigorous through mathematical analysis or reduced to considerations of infinite sets, and both of these have been well understood for over a century now.

2. The unreliability of intuition concerning infinity is very well demonstrated by Zeno's paradoxes.

3. Intuition is based on the resemblance of present experience to something previously experienced. It often has to be corrected by reason or education.

[Dalehileman]

Infinity as a completed situation would actually render it finite, no matter how huge the set.

I presume you’re envisioning a continuous expansion with the creation of new matter. And then of course it wouldn’t ever be infinite. However if it goes on forever, eventually you’ll begin to get essentially identical galaxies, very troubling to the old Intuition

-- Updated April 28th, 2012, 3:17 pm to add the following --

1. Many notions of the infinite…….have been well understood for over a century now.

I’ll have to take you at your word Pris. If our math isn’t faulty then Intuition insists one or another of our other assumptions must be wrong

2. The unreliability of intuition concerning infinity is very well demonstrated by Zeno's paradoxes.

I’m sure you’re right about that but without Intuition we’d still be cave men. I suspect some of Einstein’s conclusions started as Intuition

3. Intuition……... often has to be corrected by reason or education.

Of course but still its value is underrated