Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Wooden shoe]

Sorry Percival, but you are just throwing dust in my eyes so I can not see anything!

I am not claiming any kind of creator, I am asking a philosophical question.
I am trying to get someone to flesh out this "creator" who is supposed to be behind the "creation theory" so that there is something rather than nothing.
Or perhaps we are imperfect because the creator is also. Maybe that is why the bible says that we are made in his image.

[Sir Percival]

The way it looked to me is that you asked a series of rhetorical questions with the answer 'no'. I in response asked a similar series, having the same substantial meaning, with the answer 'yes'.

[Wooden shoe]

Sir Percival.

Unless the believer is just a blind follower, said person should ask questions, and if a Christian should ask those questions, within the framework of the Bible.
Now I know that from any perspective, God can never be fully known, but we can ask "could such be true" and that is why I posed these questions.

[Sir Percival]

I'm totally with you on asking questions, trying to understand things more, and get a better idea of what God is like. We won't understand everything, but can make a lot of progress, and I'd say the process has value as well as the goal. I thought that with my questions I was just continuing the dialog.
I get my picture of God in the Bible (most clearly in the NT), and also from life and nature. His being is the epitome of completeness, creativity, and harmony. He loves definite things, like beauty, growth, and good relationships, and therefore hates what destroys those things. Since he highly values individuals' growth, character, accomplishment, wisdom, and connection with himself and others, he allows other evils that cause more opportunity for these things to develop.
It's a huge topic and lots could be said, debated, imagined, and all, these are just some thoughts that came to mind.

[Cronos988]

@basichelp
Don't you see that those are totally different situations? Life as we know it could not have always existed. An infinite being could.

That is only an assumption. You cannot even define this alleged infinite being, and you have advanced no evidence why any kind of intelligence could possibly be infinite. Biblical creationism adds to these difficulties by proposing a creator that has distinct human traits, which are incompatible with infinite being.

According to the Theist, it is impossible that intelligence could develop, but quite possible that it could just magically popped into existance.

His being is the epitome of completeness, creativity, and harmony. He loves definite things, like beauty, growth, and good relationships, and therefore hates what destroys those things. Since he highly values individuals' growth, character, accomplishment, wisdom, and connection with himself and others, he allows other evils that cause more opportunity for these things to develop.
It's a huge topic and lots could be said, debated, imagined, and all, these are just some thoughts that came to mind.

That is a description of human feelings. But Humans are finite beings, and our feelings are based on finite ideas, like time. How can a being that exists outside of time and space have human feelings? Is it possible for a human character to live outside of time?

What does god consist of, Energy? How does god interact with the world, what are his tools? How can one measure the connection of the individual with good? Where can one finde the connection of the body with the soul? Those are all questions about the nature of god that go far beyond just describing how you think god feels about things.

A lot of the things you described are also highly subjective, like beauty, accomplishment and character.

[Xris]

The trouble with describing a creator he has to be constantly adjusted to fit any new troublesome question. The bible would be last place to look for a viable alternative to the theories of evolution.

The bible in my opinion is record of mans exist from eden,no longer hunter gatherers but forming settled communities. Farming the land and creating permanent communities. The written word appears and so do the first records of mans view of creation. If our fundamentalist biblical friends did but realise it , it is a very valid book for that reason. I often wonder how they explain this other tribe that Adam's kids married into, where did they come from?

[Sir Percival]

It's interesting how atheists are fine with a lot of uncertainty about a natural explanation for the universe, on how or whether it would work, but don't allow uncertainty about a supernatural one.

Cronos, my main point is that you can prove that the world could not have always existed, but you can't prove that about God. That is enough to show that Dawkins' comment is weak or illogical.

[Cronos988]

It's interesting how atheists are fine with a lot of uncertainty about a natural explanation for the universe, on how or whether it would work, but don't allow uncertainty about a supernatural one.

Its not so much about uncertainity, more about being able to formulate a hypothesis. It's really difficult to say god exists when you cannot point out how it would be theoretically possible to prove that.

Cronos, my main point is that you can prove that the world could not have always existed, but you can't prove that about God. That is enough to show that Dawkins' comment is weak or illogical.

Well yes, that is because you do not define god in any meaningful way. The same argumentation also applies to pink invisible magical unicorns. They could have existed infinitely too, but only because I do not define what they actually consist of.

No-one knows whether the universe is infinite or not. It certainly possible for the chain of cause and effect to actually be a circle.

The argument why life cannot be infinite is because it is based on cause and effect. You say god is infinite, because he is not based on cause and effect. Then what is he based on? And if he is outside of cause and effect, how can he possibly have the human traits that are ascribed to him, while we know those traits only work with cause and effect and time.

Its not so much about certainity, but about plain logical possibility.

[Xris]

It's interesting how atheists are fine with a lot of uncertainty about a natural explanation for the universe, on how or whether it would work, but don't allow uncertainty about a supernatural one.

Cronos, my main point is that you can prove that the world could not have always existed, but you can't prove that about God. That is enough to show that Dawkins' comment is weak or illogical.

There is difference between uncertain about cause and certainty of a particular god. The concept of a certain god requires faith not fact. A creator can not be discounted but I will dispute any description you care to give me.

[Wooden shoe]

First the disclaimer, I do not believe there is a God, I believe that we got here through evolution.

But what are the atributes of the God of the bible.
Sir Persival has given some vague very human ones which are just his interpretation.
The bible says God is eternal, outside of time, all powerful, jealous, and demanding worship and obedience, perfection in every way, all knowing.
So, let's picture this God creating the universe. So He created earth with vulcanos, earthquakes,floods etc. Then he created plant and animal life including us. Death was designed in to it also, as some life lived on plant and others on the planteaters.
Next It brought choice into the picture and the rest of that story is well known.
Now let's go back to the all knowing part of this God, because this means that this God knew before It started that Adam and Eve would disobey, so obviously wanted it that way.
Just for the record there is NO mention in the bible of a total re-creation after the "Fall into sin", So we can safely say it did not happen.
The conclusion I draw about this God is this: THat if this God was perfection before creating an imperfect universe, It became imperfect by this act.
The believer might be better off giving up on the creation story.


,

[Sir Percival]

I think God had good reasons for creating a world that would fall into sin, and I have an idea what those reasons are. Sure, some things are more my opinions or explanations (isn't people's opinions and reasonings what philosophy is about?), though they were shaped by the Bible and other Christian influences.
Present any other possible world and I can show ways that it would be inferior to this one when seen from a biblical perspective.

[Wooden shoe]

Sir Persival, You are now arguing in favor of an imperfect God.
When the absolute perfection creates imperfection, by this very act it becomes imperfect.

Yes opinion has a place in philosophy, but opinion or belief should be identified as such in my view.
As

[Sir Percival]

Imperfect God? That all depends on your definition of perfect. I would say it means something like 'best possible.' Also note that God did not do any evil directly, merely created being he foresaw would choose evil on their own.

[Wooden shoe]

I respect your belief Persival but what I wrote is all based on what the bible says and using normal logic.
I realize that even if I could prove evolution beyond doubt, which no one can, you would still believe in creation.
So this discussion, although interesting, will go nowhere.

[Cronos988]

What is interesting is that according to the bible, God is essentially a "perfect" version of a human, a model so to say.

The Bible also says (or rather assumes) that we will go either to heaven or Hell, with our whole personality intact.

So according to the bible, life is actually infinite, because god is human-like and is infinite, and Humans get an afterlife, in which they become infinite.
The Problem I have with both assumptions is that it is impossible for a human personality to life in a timeless state. Our mind cannot even imagine a timeless state, how would it be able to life in it? How do feelings work in a timeless state? Are they infinite, too? Can you feel eternal joy? What would you use to define that joy, if there is nothing else? How can there be different feelings with no time to separate them?

And you have still not answered my question: How does god manifest in the physical world?