Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Pattern-chaser]

When it comes to adults though, I think maximising freedom should be our guiding principle and not minimising harm.

Why? Serious question. What makes it so clear to you that one should over-ride the other? Harm needs urgent opposition, more urgent than "freedom" does.

[Pattern-chaser]

...do you think that the conflation of gender and sex has lead to some people feeling hurt?

Not really. I think that denial of someone's gender has lead to hurt, in some cases. Just like, as an autist, one's very humanity is denied by the NeuroTypical majority, who insist we suppress ourselves, and pretend to be like everyone else, or we are rejected. "Be someone else, or get lost; *YOU* are unacceptable to us!". Attitudes like that cause great hurt and harm.

[Fried Egg]

When it comes to adults though, I think maximising freedom should be our guiding principle and not minimising harm.

Why? Serious question. What makes it so clear to you that one should over-ride the other? Harm needs urgent opposition, more urgent than "freedom" does.

When I talk about a policy of "minimisation of harm", I am talking about protecting people from themselves. i.e. with children, it makes sense to have rules to protect children from themselves because we judge that children aren't fully cognizant of the implications of their own decisions. We don't hold them fully responsible for their mistakes but we restrict their freedom accordingly.

Adults are judged to be cognizant of the implications of their decisions and as we hold them responsible. Consequently, they have (or should have) the freedom to make decisions that might be bad for them (like smoking cigarettes).

No need to point out that some adults really don't know what they're doing and some children do. The law draw must draw the line somewhere and is inherently arbitrary. But unless you are going to abolish age restrictions and the legal age of responsibility and judge each individual on a case by case basis (something which just isn't practical), this is inevitable.

So we allow adults to do things that might be damaging to themselves (such as engaging gender re-assignment surgery) because freedom has trumped harm minimisation. Although we do seem to be moving away from freedom maximisation towards harm minimisation even among adults and I'm very opposed to that. I don't want to live in a "nanny" state and why should another set of adult individuals get to decide what's best for others?

...do you think that the conflation of gender and sex has lead to some people feeling hurt?

Not really. I think that denial of someone's gender has lead to hurt, in some cases.

But you don't get it. We're not denying anybody's gender. We are talking about their sex. So no need to feel hurt about it.

Just like, as an autist, one's very humanity is denied by the NeuroTypical majority, who insist we suppress ourselves, and pretend to be like everyone else, or we are rejected. "Be someone else, or get lost; *YOU* are unacceptable to us!". Attitudes like that cause great hurt and harm.

Not at all. We are not telling people to align their gender identity with their biological sex. We are just asking to be allowed to make the distinction between gender and sex.

And if they do feel oppressed by the mere statement of biological reality, then that's on them.

[Pattern-chaser]

This quote was added after I'd posted this note. But it fits well:

But you don't get it. We're not denying anybody's gender. We are talking about their sex.

...

We are just asking to be allowed to make the distinction between gender and sex.

An imagined example, intended to illuminate some of the arguments in this topic.

Let's say that I have a penis, but that my brain is configured in the way that is typical for a 'normal' female. And let's also say that we have definitive and conclusive evidence of both (external organs and internal brain biology).
N.B. my brain is part of my physical and biological being, just as my penis is.

So never mind "gender", for now, what is my "biological sex"?

One aspect of my biology says male, but another, equally physical and biological, aspect of me says female.

[Fried Egg]

It seems strange to me the idea that one would develop anatomically in a highly typical way for one's sex and yet their brain be developed according to the opposite sex. After all, the brain is part of the body and is "sexed" according to the same chronozones and hormones. It makes more sense in the case of intersex individuals who's developed abnormally but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about individuals who are perfectly typical and normally developed according to a particular sex in all ways except for the brain, which as developed normally according to the opposite sex? It would seem to be a highly unlikely possibility to me.

However, you are asking me to consider this as an "imagined example", a hypothetical case as it were, so I will put such reservations aside for a moment.

Even in such a case as you describe, it is one's anatomical sex that would be the pertinent concern in most cases (where it should be a concern at all). For instance, in woman's sports, what is of concern is not the masculine/feminine structure of the brain, but whether the body as a whole has gained the benefits of male development which incurs some innate advantages over women physically. Or the separation of women in prisons. The danger of putting male prisoners with female comes from the physical bodies of men, not from their brains.

So ultimately, it is the anatomy of an individual that is important when it comes to one's sex. Although I would think it is highly unlikely the brain itself would be at variance with the rest of the body (in the vast majority of cases).

[Sy Borg]

So ultimately, it is the anatomy of an individual that is important when it comes to one's sex. Although I would think it is highly unlikely the brain itself would be at variance with the rest of the body (in the vast majority of cases).

I think this works itself out. Transwomen who are androgynous in mind and body will fit into society okay while those who give the impression that something went wrong mentally will lead fringe lives.

[Pattern-chaser]

It seems strange to me the idea that one would develop anatomically in a highly typical way for one's sex and yet their brain be developed according to the opposite sex. After all, the brain is part of the body and is "sexed" according to the same chronozones and hormones. It makes more sense in the case of intersex individuals who's developed abnormally but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about individuals who are perfectly typical and normally developed according to a particular sex in all ways except for the brain, which as developed normally according to the opposite sex? It would seem to be a highly unlikely possibility to me.

As "highly unlikely" as an otherwise healthy child with two thumbs (on one hand!), or a cleft palette, or a 'club foot'...? That would seem to be highly possible, if uncommon, wouldn't it?

However, you are asking me to consider this as an "imagined example", a hypothetical case as it were, so I will put such reservations aside for a moment.

Even in such a case as you describe, it is one's anatomical sex that would be the pertinent concern in most cases (where it should be a concern at all).

So we've moved on from "biological" sex to "anatomical"? Is my brain not a part of my anatomy?

Anatomy is the branch of morphology concerned with the study of the internal structure of organisms and their parts. Anatomy is a branch of natural science that deals with the structural organization of living things. It is an old science, having its beginnings in prehistoric times. Anatomy is inherently tied to developmental biology, embryology, comparative anatomy, evolutionary biology, and phylogeny, as these are the processes by which anatomy is generated, both over immediate and long-term timescales.

It sounds from that as though my brain, and its connections (i.e. its "internal structure"), are very much part of my anatomy. But you are obsessed with my penis*, it seems, and don't want to place it on a par with my brain. I wonder why not?

* — in the context of this topic, and this discussion, of course.

[Fried Egg]

So we've moved on from "biological" sex to "anatomical"? Is my brain not a part of my anatomy?

You were the one that insisted I consider a hypothetical scenario in which one's brain has developed under different chromosomal and hormonal conditions than the rest of the body. I was just searching for a word which might allow us to distinguish the brain from the rest of the body. If you don't like the choice of word, please advise of another more accurate one and I'll use that.

Of course your brain is part of your anatomy. Which is why it seems so incredible to believe that the brain might have developed differently to the rest of the body; it would have been subject to the same chromosomal and hormonal conditions. This is precisely the reason I think such a scenario as you describe would be highly unlikely.

As "highly unlikely" as an otherwise healthy child with two thumbs (on one hand!), or a cleft palette, or a 'club foot'...? That would seem to be highly possible, if uncommon, wouldn't it?

No, not at all. Such conditions have a highly specific cause that we wouldn't expect to correlate with any other developed characteristic. The development of sexually dimorphic characteristics on the other hand all share a similar cause, which is why I think it so strange that most of the body might develop typically according to one sex but an individual part of the body develop typically of the other sex.

[Fried Egg]

Note, I just want to clarify that I am not disputing the concept of gender dysphoria. I think it's quite possible that it might develop for other reasons besides having a female brain in a male body (or vice versa). For instance the emotional trauma that some people experience going through puberty or the severe trauma caused by sexual harassment/abuse. We know these things are tragically all too common and in my mind a more believable explanation for the numbers of people with gender dysphoria than believing there are so many people walking around in perfectly typical male bodies with female brains (or vice versa).