Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Gertie]

@amorphous

BBC -

Additionally, data from the Office for National Statistics shows that in the year ending in March 2022 almost 800,000 females aged 16 and over reported that they were raped or sexually assaulted every year in the UK - that's about one in 30

That number will likely include people you know by-the-way.

A tiny proportion end up in successful prosecutions.

Rape is also often used as a weapon of war, and has been reported by both Israelis and Palestinians.

To say you would ''hate both sides forever'' is like saying you would hate all men forever, it punishes the group for the crimes of individuals. 'Collective punishment' is a justification for genocide. It also endlessly continues the cycle of violence.

Currently some people who have far, far more reason to hate than you are trying to find a peaceful way forward. This is good.

It's tragic that apparently it would only have taken some real pressure from Biden for this to have been on the cards months and thousands of deaths ago, but here we are.

Sadly again, we don't know if Trump will end up giving Israel the go ahead to commit further attrociries now he's squashed the ongoing annoyance to him, we have to wait and see. But a just peace is always the right goal.

BBC -

Additionally, data from the Office for National Statistics shows that in the year ending in March 2022 almost 800,000 females aged 16 and over reported that they were raped or sexually assaulted every year in the UK - that's about one in 30

That number will likely include people you know by-the-way.

A tiny proportion end up in successful prosecutions.

Rape is also often used as a weapon of war, and has been reported by both Israelis and Palestinians.

To say you would ''hate both sides forever'' is like saying you would hate all men forever, it punishes the group for the crimes of individuals. 'Collective punishment' is a justification for genocide. It also endlessly continues the cycle of violence.

Currently some people who have far, far more reason to hate than you are trying to find a peaceful way forward. This is good.

It's tragic that apparently it would only have taken some real pressure from Biden for this to have been on the cards months and thousands of deaths ago, but here we are.

Sadly again, we don't know if Trump will end up giving Israel the go ahead to commit further attrociries now he's squashed the ongoing annoyance to him, we have to wait and see. But a just peace is always the right goal.

[Pattern-chaser]

The October 7 terrorist attack by Hamas is 100% the reason for what's happened since. That is the only cause.

The 1947 land-theft by UK/USA/UN is 100% the reason for what's happened since. That is the only cause.

[Sy Borg]

The October 7 terrorist attack by Hamas is 100% the reason for what's happened since. That is the only cause.

The 1947 land-theft by UK/USA/UN is 100% the reason for what's happened since. That is the only cause.

I see. So you believe that every single Arab demographic should have a homeland but the Jews should not have a homeland, and Jews should be scattered around the world until they disappear. Basically, you advocate genocide. Better the Jews be removed from the world than the Palestinians - that's seemingly the consensus around here (aside from me).

Why do you think Jews should not have a homeland? That's what 1947 did - it created a homeland for the Jews. However, it was a poisoned chalice because the UK deliberately drew boundaries in the Middle East that guaranteed conflict (divide and rule). That's life.

Most of us consider the Taliban reprehensible, but that is very much the kind of society Hamas would implement in Israel once it is taken over. Why does everyone on this forum want to see this happen? Support for Hamas is ultimately support for the crushing of women's and queer rights.

Back in the day I also supported the PLO because I always supported underdogs in principle. However, I changed when I realised how many billions Palestinians had been give in aid, and that the leadership decided not to spend it on the people, or nation-building, but to buy weapons and build tunnels. That behaviour has been encouraged by western enablers, like those on this board.

[Pattern-chaser]

The October 7 terrorist attack by Hamas is 100% the reason for what's happened since. That is the only cause.

The 1947 land-theft by UK/USA/UN is 100% the reason for what's happened since. That is the only cause.

I see.

So you believe that every single Arab demographic should have a homeland but the Jews should not have a homeland, and Jews should be scattered around the world until they disappear.

Er, no. No!

Basically, you advocate genocide.

No, I do not.

Why do you think Jews should not have a homeland?

I don't. Religions don't have homelands. Nationalities have homelands. Religions have followers and believers.

That's what 1947 did - it created a homeland for the Jews.

The "Jews" are and were a religious group. Here we are discussing land, in particular "homelands", and that pertains to geographical, nationalist, perspectives. Religion has no *direct* relevance to one's homeland.

A particular religious group were ejected from the Middle East, where they were living at the time. It happened nearly 3000 years ago. And the other residents of the Middle East remained there, and continued to live there. The 1947 land-grab took more than half of the land occupied by the indigenous people who never left (or were ejected), and gave it to the descendants of that tiny religious group as their "homeland"...

However, it was a poisoned chalice because the UK deliberately drew boundaries in the Middle East that guaranteed conflict (divide and rule).

That's another matter. True enough, but another matter.

[Sy Borg]

A particular religious group were ejected from the Middle East, where they were living at the time. It happened nearly 3000 years ago. And the other residents of the Middle East remained there, and continued to live there. The 1947 land-grab took more than half of the land occupied by the indigenous people who never left (or were ejected), and gave it to the descendants of that tiny religious group as their "homeland"...

What we have is argy bargy. Palestine did not exist and consisted of Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians, which is why the Gaza killings are not genocide. You can't commit genocide against a small subset of Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians. They aren't a race, or even a proper culture. Palestine's only history is war. When they are given billions in donations, they don't spend it on aid or nation-building, but on trying to destroy Israel (weapons and tunnels that are strategically located under schools, hospitals and residential areas).

In the end, this comes down to the kind of world people want - one with more secular western values or more theistic totalitarian control. I find it strange that so many westerners would favour a society that builds and creates nothing, that kills gays and subjugates women over a relatively free society that is a world leader in irrigation practices that have saved millions of lives around the world.