Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Fanman]

Given what I have experienced, of course not. I believe that atheists experience the depth and richness of life just like people who see more than practicality and empiricism. They appreciate the beauty and the subtle nuances too. We're all human ultimately. I have encountered people who claimed to be atheists, but I could tell by their behaviour and actions that they had spiritual beliefs. Just not beliefs that were associated with ethical practices. The ghost of my theistic past will never leave me and I am not ashamed of it. So, I would say that their methods, behaviours and tactics were "Satanic". Now, I would not tarnish all atheists with that ugly brush, just the ones that I encountered in conflict. But by that same token, some people claimed to be religious and adopted similar "Satanic" behaviours. I'm no saint, that is not my approach, and I'm not judging anyone just giving my perspective. But when people tell me that they don't believe in God and they don't have any beliefs. I do not instantly take their word for it. Call me crazy or sceptical if you want. But based on the things I have seen, fought against and encountered - some people, even those who claim to have no beliefs are aligned with something. The easy thing to do is to call people like me crazy or eccentric, but if you look in other forums apart from philosophy, you will see many people claiming to be seers, healers, spiritualists, witches, etc. I don't believe that everyone is into those types of things, that would be ridiculous. But I am also not naive enough to think that everyone who is into those sorts of practices (for their reasons) would openly admit to it.

I'm not sure if I can see what you're getting at here, especially with your references to "Satanism". Where did that (idea) appear from? What is it intended to mean or describe?

I specifically said that in my conflicts with some atheists (and religious people), the way they conducted themselves was "Satanic." Fundamentally, it is a rhetorical device that I used, intending to show that even though they claimed to have no beliefs verbally, their conduct was so lacking in ethical considerations that it resembled "Satan" from the Bible. That was my (and others') experience of them. So the thrust of my point is that even though some people claim not to have beliefs, their nature and behavior portray that they actually do have beliefs. I just chose to use a negative example to illustrate how that could look. I'm making use of the idiom "actions speak louder than words." I don't know how you reason things out, but if I observe someone consistently behaving in alignment with Satanic (as taken from the Bible) principles, I think that presents a valid reason to suggest that they practice Satanism. I am sorry if the tone of my discussion offends you, but I do not feel that I am off-topic. Satanism is also a form of spirituality, but I don’t know if it is considered as a recognised religion.

[Lagayascienza]

A person who is a satanist, then they believe in the supernatural - demons, fallen angles, heaven and hell, etcetera - and so they are not an atheist. Atheists believe in none of that stuff.

[Fanman]

A person who is a satanist, then they believe in the supernatural - demons, fallen angles, heaven and hell, etcetera - and so they are not an atheist. Atheists believe in none of that stuff.

If I understand your statement, it causes me to feel that I may not have been clear enough in mine. However, upon checking, I do not see any requirement to reiterate. So, if you don't understand what I am saying, I will accept that and move on.

[Lagayascienza]

Sorry for the typos in my post above. It should have read:

If a person is a satanist, then they believe in the supernatural - in demons, fallen angles, heaven and hell, etcetera. ...

My point was that Satan is a supernatural entity like gods and angels and demons. If a person believes in such entities then it's hard to see how they could also be atheist unless we restrict the definition of "atheism" to a lack of belief in gods. That may be semantically and technically correct but, in practice, all atheists I know believe in no supernatural entities at all.

[Fanman]

Sorry for the typos in my post above. It should have read:

If a person is a satanist, then they believe in the supernatural - in demons, fallen angles, heaven and hell, etcetera. ...

My point was that Satan is a supernatural entity like gods and angels and demons. If a person believes in such entities then it's hard to see how they could also be atheist unless we restrict the definition of "atheism" to a lack of belief in gods. That may be semantically and technically correct but, in practice, all atheists I know believe in no supernatural entities at all.

Maybe I have misunderstood what I communicated. What specifically have I stated that caused you to provide this clarification?

[Lagayascienza]

Perhaps I might have read you post a bit more carefully. You said that the methods, behavior, and tactics of some atheists was "satanic" and that this indicated to you that they were not true atheists. I don't see how that follows. It seems to me that your appraisal of their behavior is a separate issue to their beliefs as atheists or theists. But maybe I have still not understood what you were getting at. Apologies if that is the case.

[Fanman]

Perhaps I might have read you post a bit more carefully. You said that the methods, behavior, and tactics of some atheists was "satanic" and that this indicated to you that they were not true atheists. I don't see how that follows. It seems to me that your appraisal of their behavior is a separate issue to their beliefs as atheists or theists. But maybe I have still not understood what you were getting at. Apologies if that is the case.

No problem. Fundamentally, my key point was to show that, even though people claim not to have spiritual beliefs, Viz, atheists. And in the case of Abrahamic theists, affiliation to God. In my experience, their general behaviours could have been interpreted as “Satanic” (relative to the Bible) due to their complete lack of ethical considerations (I am glad I didn’t discard the evidence of what occurred). I’m surprised that you can’t see the correlation. While my appraisal of their behaviour relative to their beliefs may have been incorrect - It is clear that people’s behaviours can be used to interpret their beliefs and the veracity of their claimed affiliations. That’s why we have terms like “hypocrite” and idioms such as “actions speak louder than words”. I have tried to articulate myself clearly.

[Pattern-chaser]

I specifically said that in my conflicts with some atheists (and religious people), the way they conducted themselves was "Satanic." Fundamentally, it is a rhetorical device that I used, intending to show that even though they claimed to have no beliefs verbally, their conduct was so lacking in ethical considerations that it resembled "Satan" from the Bible. That was my (and others') experience of them. So the thrust of my point is that even though some people claim not to have beliefs, their nature and behavior portray that they actually do have beliefs. I just chose to use a negative example to illustrate how that could look. I'm making use of the idiom "actions speak louder than words." I don't know how you reason things out, but if I observe someone consistently behaving in alignment with Satanic (as taken from the Bible) principles, I think that presents a valid reason to suggest that they practice Satanism. I am sorry if the tone of my discussion offends you, but I do not feel that I am off-topic. Satanism is also a form of spirituality, but I don’t know if it is considered as a recognised religion.

I was confused, not offended. Satanism, for you, is just behaving badly.

But yes, there is a spiritual practice labelled Satanism too, which (from memory) is not what *you* would describe as "Satanic"...

[Fanman]

I specifically said that in my conflicts with some atheists (and religious people), the way they conducted themselves was "Satanic." Fundamentally, it is a rhetorical device that I used, intending to show that even though they claimed to have no beliefs verbally, their conduct was so lacking in ethical considerations that it resembled "Satan" from the Bible. That was my (and others') experience of them. So the thrust of my point is that even though some people claim not to have beliefs, their nature and behavior portray that they actually do have beliefs. I just chose to use a negative example to illustrate how that could look. I'm making use of the idiom "actions speak louder than words." I don't know how you reason things out, but if I observe someone consistently behaving in alignment with Satanic (as taken from the Bible) principles, I think that presents a valid reason to suggest that they practice Satanism. I am sorry if the tone of my discussion offends you, but I do not feel that I am off-topic. Satanism is also a form of spirituality, but I don’t know if it is considered as a recognised religion.

I was confused, not offended. Satanism, for you, is just behaving badly.

But yes, there is a spiritual practice labelled Satanism too, which (from memory) is not what *you* would describe as "Satanic"...

By all means, elucidate.

[Lagayascienza]

Satanism is a religion in which the mythical Satan is revered and worshiped. If that is what was being referred to, then Fanman is right - Satanists do have spiritual beliefs of the traditional sort. Atheists believe in none of the traditional supernatural mumbo jumbo and so, if they are spiritual at all, I think theirs can only be a naturalistic spirituality. If Joe's attitudes or actions are seen as Satanic, then that will be a value judgement in the eye of the beholder which does not necessarily say anything about any actual spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof) which Joe may have.

[Fanman]

Satanism is a religion in which the mythical Satan is revered and worshiped. If that is what was being referred to, then Fanman is right - Satanists do have spiritual beliefs of the traditional sort. Atheists believe in none of the traditional supernatural mumbo jumbo and so, if they are spiritual at all, I think theirs can only be a naturalistic spirituality. If Joe's attitudes or actions are seen as Satanic, then that will be a value judgement in the eye of the beholder which does not necessarily say anything about any actual spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof) which Joe may have.

Sometimes, not in every case, as there can be nuanced reasons for the way circumstances present themselves, there's no fallacy in believing that what seems to be a spade is a spade.

[Good_Egg]

My point was that Satan is a supernatural entity like gods and angels and demons. If a person believes in such entities then it's hard to see how they could also be atheist unless we restrict the definition of "atheism" to a lack of belief in gods. That may be semantically and technically correct but, in practice, all atheists I know believe in no supernatural entities at all.

I'm not sure that "supernatural" is a well-defined term. If the phenomenon (you referred earlier to ghosts) exists, what makes it supernatural ? Rather than something "natural" that we don't yet understand ?

Or - same question the other way around - if unicorns and Yetis and the Loch Ness monster don't exist, what makes them "natural" fictitious entities rather than "supernatural" fictitious entities ?

Any philosophy of religion has to distinguish "belief" in the sense of opinion about reality from "belief" in the sense of trust, of positive emotional engagement.

Merry Christmas ! On the assumption that you have a positive attitude to Christmas despite having an opinion that nothing of significance happened in Bethlehem...

[Lagayascienza]

Thank you. I wish a Happy Christmas to all. To those who don't do Christmas, I wish them a happy festive season however they celebrate it. Despite being an atheist, I enjoy Christmas - the good will, the parties, the gift giving .... I especially like seeing the kids having fun.

[Pattern-chaser]

But yes, there is a spiritual practice labelled Satanism too, which (from memory) is not what *you* would describe as "Satanic"...

By all means, elucidate.

I know little more than you. I know that the Christians were very unfair to other religions, seeking to make their beliefs the only ones. And so we came to understand words like "pagan", "heathen", and so forth, as synonyms for Satanism, a practice they would have us believe is anti-God and (of course) anti-Christian.

There is a more acceptable belief system called "Satanism", and it is not quite what the Christians told us it was. But now, we have reached the limits of my knowledge. There is more information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_Satanism [I have posted the URL in text, so that we can all see what it points to, and be assured that Wikipedia is a safe place to go.]

[Pattern-chaser]

Merry Christmas ! On the assumption that you have a positive attitude to Christmas despite having an opinion that nothing of significance happened in Bethlehem...

And to you too! Although I do not partake in the Mass of Christ, I do respect the end-of-year celebrations like Yule, the birth of Mithras (December 25th), the Winter Solstice, and others.