Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sy Borg]

I don't think those in schools, universities or media need to be unscrupulous - all they need to do is uncritically believe prior misinformation, eg. the noble savage myth - that indigenous people lived peacefully amongst themselves until European colonists arrived.

Misinformation has always existed alongside information. Often so-called misinformation is old information that has since been disproved or disputed. If we accept this fact then people should be able to develop the skills needed to work out whether something makes sense to them, without needing an "expert" to either approve or deny of what is often the bleeding obvious.

I think our society is too oligarchic to fact-check information in a trustworthy way. I suspect that, just as fact-checking has become a societal ritual, fact-checking of fact-checkers will become more common. We saw it in the Trump v Harris debate, where Trump's misinformation was fact-checked but Harris's was not, eg. the false claim that Trump called Nazis at a protest "fine people" when the full quote shows that he specifically denounced the Nazis and was referring to the traditionalists wanting to keep their old statues.

That was widespread media misinformation perpetrated by selective use of quoting, removing context to change the ostensible meaning of a statement - a common and longstanding media technique. Harris repeated the misinformation about "fine people" so either the moderators failed to fact-check Harris due to ignorance, or they were biased towards Harris and giving her an easy run.

It's a real problem because even the scientific has been compromised by the corruption of values in today's society, where utility matters more than honesty. There is, simply, no truly reliable authority in any area remotely associated with politics.

I think that society's response will be dictatorial. Without trust, society will increasingly struggle to function. Some societies will take the Orwellian dictatorial route where the government will declare what is true and what is not. Disagreement will have consequences. We are already seeing something like this, where blocs are forming, especially in academia, where get people are fired or "cancelled" (generally stymied) for making statements that are disapproved by the blocs.

I agree with your post. In politics misinformation is everywhere. When I address an issue to my Democratic House Rep. he answers with innuendo and rhetoric. Not technically lies but clearly misleading information. For example when I ask what is being done about the poor healthcare in the US he might tell me that more people are now covered by health insurance than ever before. This could be true due to the population increasing however the percentage of the total population may not be keeping up.
The US media favors the Democratic Party and is quick to fact-check the Republicans but not so the other way. IMO the misinformation of Fox News is easier to see thru than the clever misinformation from CNN and the NYT.
Compounding the problem of widespread misinformation is that many people of both parties want to believe the leadership of their party. They don't really seek the truth but confirmation of their biases.

The House Rep is a perfect example, trying to gaslight you with literal truths that tell a semantic lie.

We live in increasingly unstable and divided times. As populations grow, schisms inevitably form. Add growing inequality, and the fault lines appear. There's tremendous competition for the public's attention, for influence. The mainstream media now is increasingly partisan, with most leaning socially left while pretending to be economically left but they studiously avoid mentioning the inordinate influence of asset management companies, other than dismissing such observations as "misinformation".

[Pattern-chaser]

Misinformation has always existed alongside information. Often so-called misinformation is old information that has since been disproved or disputed. If we accept this fact then people should be able to develop the skills needed to work out whether something makes sense to them, without needing an "expert" to either approve or deny of what is often the bleeding obvious.

Perhaps we *should* be able to do this, but are we actually able to do this? Some of us, perhaps many of us, can't achieve this, for manifold reasons.

The House Rep is a perfect example, trying to gaslight you with literal truths that tell a semantic lie.

I believe this is a well-known way of telling lies successfully, by 'allowing' or encouraging someone to take an incorrect impression from your words.

[Mo_reese]

Compounding the problem of widespread misinformation is that many people of both parties want to believe the leadership of their party. They don't really seek the truth but confirmation of their biases.

That's it in a nutshell - confirmation bias. And, as well as the fact that there's a lot of misinformation out there, a lot of people just aren't interested in doing the work to check and weed out misinformation. Instead of asking themselves whether Trump is correct in saying that immigrants are kidnapping and eating people's pets, they just accept it. And if Harris says that the DEMS have improved health care coverage, some people are similarly disinterested in checking whether it is true or not. And all too many people get comfortably ensconced in online echo chambers where all they hear is what they would like to believe.

I agree and re. echo chambers, it is near impossible to have progressives and non-progressives discuss issues.

Those in power, the Elite Class, want to control the message and they have the corporate media to help. However the internet, via social media and online news sites, have made it easier for people to communicate and examine and discuss the Elite Class message (propaganda). For example, while the Elite Class managed to contain the stories, for the most part, of the atrocities of the Iraq invasion/war, they have failed to contain the stories of what's happening in Gaza. We are seeing the Elite Class in damage control as they try to regain control of the messaging. Getting control of the social media, like Tik-Tok, is important and now we see them trying to convince us to allow them to censor our information under the guise of protecting us from misinformation. How ironic that the masters of misinformation are going to protect us from misinformation.

[Sy Borg]

Compounding the problem of widespread misinformation is that many people of both parties want to believe the leadership of their party. They don't really seek the truth but confirmation of their biases.

That's it in a nutshell - confirmation bias. And, as well as the fact that there's a lot of misinformation out there, a lot of people just aren't interested in doing the work to check and weed out misinformation. Instead of asking themselves whether Trump is correct in saying that immigrants are kidnapping and eating people's pets, they just accept it. And if Harris says that the DEMS have improved health care coverage, some people are similarly disinterested in checking whether it is true or not. And all too many people get comfortably ensconced in online echo chambers where all they hear is what they would like to believe.

I agree and re. echo chambers, it is near impossible to have progressives and non-progressives discuss issues.

Those in power, the Elite Class, want to control the message and they have the corporate media to help. However the internet, via social media and online news sites, have made it easier for people to communicate and examine and discuss the Elite Class message (propaganda). For example, while the Elite Class managed to contain the stories, for the most part, of the atrocities of the Iraq invasion/war, they have failed to contain the stories of what's happening in Gaza. We are seeing the Elite Class in damage control as they try to regain control of the messaging. Getting control of the social media, like Tik-Tok, is important and now we see them trying to convince us to allow them to censor our information under the guise of protecting us from misinformation. How ironic that the masters of misinformation are going to protect us from misinformation.

I would say that the media of the Elite Class has constantly pushed Gaza in our faces while ignoring Syria, Yemen and Sudan.

Mainstream media keeps ignoring Hamas's use of human shields, using tunnel bases deliberately built under hospitals, schools and residential areas , designed to induce the greatest number of civilian casualties. Hamas then parades these deaths to the world - a longstanding strategy - and the left-leaning media gobbles it up. Meanwhile, when Israelis die in fighting, you might or might not hear about it.

The betrayal of the west - the people and western culture - by a leftist mainstream media trained in Marxist universities has been profound, and disturbing.

[Pattern-chaser]

I would say that the media of the Elite Class has constantly pushed Gaza in our faces while ignoring Syria, Yemen and Sudan.

Mainstream media keeps ignoring Hamas's use of human shields, using tunnel bases deliberately built under hospitals, schools and residential areas , designed to induce the greatest number of civilian casualties. Hamas then parades these deaths to the world - a longstanding strategy - and the left-leaning media gobbles it up. Meanwhile, when Israelis die in fighting, you might or might not hear about it.

The betrayal of the west - the people and western culture - by a leftist mainstream media trained in Marxist universities has been profound, and disturbing.

We are all aware, I assume, that there is a great deal of propaganda about the current Middle East conflict around. This is probably not the place (i.e. topic) to exchange views that may not be true. This long-term military occupation, maybe better than any other example, illustrates and describes the purpose and point of this topic: propaganda, misinformation and deception.

[Mo_reese]

I would say that the media of the Elite Class has constantly pushed Gaza in our faces while ignoring Syria, Yemen and Sudan.

Mainstream media keeps ignoring Hamas's use of human shields, using tunnel bases deliberately built under hospitals, schools and residential areas , designed to induce the greatest number of civilian casualties. Hamas then parades these deaths to the world - a longstanding strategy - and the left-leaning media gobbles it up. Meanwhile, when Israelis die in fighting, you might or might not hear about it.

The betrayal of the west - the people and western culture - by a leftist mainstream media trained in Marxist universities has been profound, and disturbing.

Once again you conflate the Left with the Rich, Elite, Neo-Liberals. They couldn't be more different. Sen Sanders is typical of the Left. In 2016 and 2020 he ran for president and had the support of millions of young progressives while his opponents, the wealthy Clinton and Biden, had the support of the DNC and over 100 billionaires. Sen Sanders lost to the Elite big money of the neo-liberals.
As far as the American media 95% of it is owned and run by a handful of Elite, rich people and they have never supported the Left. In 2003 MSNBC, the most liberal of the networks fired host Phil Donahue who, at the time, ran their most popular show. He was fired because he dared air interviews with people that were skeptical of the Iraq War. The NYT at the time fully backed the lies of the establishment regarding Iraq and did for years.
The US media openly supports the rich Elite and have no programming for the Left.
The chairman of the New York Times is Arthur Sulzberger and he has been in constant conflict with his journalists trying to censor their stories to favor Israel. Social media and independent journalists have forced NYT to cover the conflict and that's why the Elite establishment, not the Left, want to censor “misinformation” of the Left.
When the Left launched Occupy Wall Street to protest inequality, they met the wrath of the Rich Elite establishment. Obama had the FBI help local police brutalize the peaceful protesters. To be clear, the Neo-Liberal establishment attacked the peacefully demonstrating Left. They are not the same.
Senator Sanders is Left and gets zero backing from billionaires while Clinton, Obama, Harris, Biden are all Rich, Elitists that support Israel, in fact Biden says he is a Zionist.
The Left supports affordable healthcare, saving Social Security and Medicare, they fight the monopolization of corporations, and the horrible inflation monster. On the other hand the Democratic establishment elite with their media support wars and genocide and a larger “defense” budget and tax breaks for the rich.

[Sy Borg]

In other words, the left is in control but, since the control is not total, it is not enough. Blackrock and Vanguard are pushing the agenda.

The left have lost interest in the working class, advocating for ever more migrants, which forces wages down and pushing housing costs up, not to mention education, health and welfare. The left now despise the working class, seeing them as ignorant racists for complaining about all the difficult migrants sent to their suburbs . Likewise, high immigration levels is a disaster for the environment - another domain that the left have largely abandoned.

[Mo_reese]

In other words, the left is in control but, since the control is not total, it is not enough. Blackrock and Vanguard are pushing the agenda.

The left have lost interest in the working class, advocating for ever more migrants, which forces wages down and pushing housing costs up, not to mention education, health and welfare. The left now despise the working class, seeing them as ignorant racists for complaining about all the difficult migrants sent to their suburbs . Likewise, high immigration levels is a disaster for the environment - another domain that the left have largely abandoned.

Every thing you are saying pertains to the neo-liberal elite of the likes of Obama, Harris, Biden, Clinton but they are NOT the Left. The neo-liberal elite agree with the Republicans on a lot of issues like war, reducing regulations on corporations, increasing regulations on personal freedoms, and tax relief for the rich. They are not the Left.

[Sy Borg]

In other words, the left is in control but, since the control is not total, it is not enough. Blackrock and Vanguard are pushing the agenda.

The left have lost interest in the working class, advocating for ever more migrants, which forces wages down and pushing housing costs up, not to mention education, health and welfare. The left now despise the working class, seeing them as ignorant racists for complaining about all the difficult migrants sent to their suburbs . Likewise, high immigration levels is a disaster for the environment - another domain that the left have largely abandoned.

Every thing you are saying pertains to the neo-liberal elite of the likes of Obama, Harris, Biden, Clinton but they are NOT the Left. The neo-liberal elite agree with the Republicans on a lot of issues like war, reducing regulations on corporations, increasing regulations on personal freedoms, and tax relief for the rich. They are not the Left.

Like it or not, the liberal elite are a major part of today's left. I have never heard a left winger complain about extreme immigration. They leave it to the right and centrists.

As for war, in the US, Trump is the least keen on it. Now the right are more anti-war. It's strange for someone of my age. The right have been the war-mongers all my life - Vietnam and Iraq being notable - but now it's the left who are more violent, both in advocating for war, and also in the streets (the BLM riots were a lot worse than reported - people killed, billions of dollars of damage).

The left today is a mess. They want more migrants who push down wages, increase house prices and rents and, the extra housing comes at the expense of the environment. They support Palestine, one of the most misogynistic and homophobic cultures in the world, similar to the Taliban. Yet they want the rich to pay more tax. They don't want coal and oil but they reject nuclear power, the best way of ensuring baseload clean energy, allowing for a transition to renewables without energy stoppages. The left now fully embrace racism and sexism, but only against whites, Jews and males. They support transpeople competing in women's sport, despite the fact that being born male confers certain physical advantages, but a subset of the left utterly detests transpeople.

I am an old-school greenie who voted Green most of my life. No more. Of the above, the one item I agree on is that billionaires should pay more tax (and never, ever have a zero tax return) but it seems that, whenever there is a push to tax the rich, the measures taken will hammer the middle class like my family and leave corporations and moguls untouched.

In this climate, where cognitive dissonance rules, I won't want anyone given absolute power to determine whether contestable ideas are "misinformation" or not.

[Pattern-chaser]

The left have lost interest in the working class...

Like it or not, the liberal elite are a major part of today's left.

Then "the Left" has changed out of all recognition. The Left advocates for working people, by definition. That is the core of Left politics. If that is no longer the case, then there is no longer a "Left" wing in politics. And maybe that is so? I hope not.

[Mo_reese]

In other words, the left is in control but, since the control is not total, it is not enough. Blackrock and Vanguard are pushing the agenda.

The left have lost interest in the working class, advocating for ever more migrants, which forces wages down and pushing housing costs up, not to mention education, health and welfare. The left now despise the working class, seeing them as ignorant racists for complaining about all the difficult migrants sent to their suburbs . Likewise, high immigration levels is a disaster for the environment - another domain that the left have largely abandoned.

Every thing you are saying pertains to the neo-liberal elite of the likes of Obama, Harris, Biden, Clinton but they are NOT the Left. The neo-liberal elite agree with the Republicans on a lot of issues like war, reducing regulations on corporations, increasing regulations on personal freedoms, and tax relief for the rich. They are not the Left.

Like it or not, the liberal elite are a major part of today's left. I have never heard a left winger complain about extreme immigration. They leave it to the right and centrists.

As for war, in the US, Trump is the least keen on it. Now the right are more anti-war. It's strange for someone of my age. The right have been the war-mongers all my life - Vietnam and Iraq being notable - but now it's the left who are more violent, both in advocating for war, and also in the streets (the BLM riots were a lot worse than reported - people killed, billions of dollars of damage).

The left today is a mess. They want more migrants who push down wages, increase house prices and rents and, the extra housing comes at the expense of the environment. They support Palestine, one of the most misogynistic and homophobic cultures in the world, similar to the Taliban. Yet they want the rich to pay more tax. They don't want coal and oil but they reject nuclear power, the best way of ensuring baseload clean energy, allowing for a transition to renewables without energy stoppages. The left now fully embrace racism and sexism, but only against whites, Jews and males. They support transpeople competing in women's sport, despite the fact that being born male confers certain physical advantages, but a subset of the left utterly detests transpeople.

I am an old-school greenie who voted Green most of my life. No more. Of the above, the one item I agree on is that billionaires should pay more tax (and never, ever have a zero tax return) but it seems that, whenever there is a push to tax the rich, the measures taken will hammer the middle class like my family and leave corporations and moguls untouched.

In this climate, where cognitive dissonance rules, I won't want anyone given absolute power to determine whether contestable ideas are "misinformation" or not.

You continue to conflate the Left with the Neo-Liberals when the two share no beliefs or values.
If we consider the US political spectrum as being linear with the Left on one end and the Right on the other, we would find those that run the US, the Neo-Liberals to the right of center and in some cases, sharing some of their beliefs with the Right.
In Congress there are only about 10 members considered on the Left. They included Sen Sanders and the House Reps called “The Squad”. Their beliefs include universal healthcare, social justice, the Green New Deal, tuition-free public college, wealth redistribution, regulation on corporations and freedom from excessive regulations on people. Their beliefs are starkly different than those of the Neo-Liberals like Obama, Biden, the Clintons, and Harris. The neo-liberals are against all of the beliefs of the Left mentioned above but support market-based healthcare, international trade agreements like NAFTA and CAFTA, corporate deregulation, tax breaks for the wealthy, bully-like foreign policies, a huge defense budget. The Right shares most of these beliefs with the Neo-Liberals while the Left shares none of them.
The Left is against what is happening in Palestine and Ukraine while the Neo-Liberals that run the country support those actions.

[Sy Borg]

The left have lost interest in the working class...

Like it or not, the liberal elite are a major part of today's left.

Then "the Left" has changed out of all recognition. The Left advocates for working people, by definition. That is the core of Left politics. If that is no longer the case, then there is no longer a "Left" wing in politics. And maybe that is so? I hope not.

Yes, the left has changed out of all recognition. Some are in denial about this, and they keep shifting the bar of leftism to fit their ideology.

Working people are now deemed racists and bigots by the left because they oppose uncontrolled immigration. The left has been hijacked by social Marxists, who have changed the left's priorities away from working people and towards the environment to identity politics.

How often do you see the left decry high immigration levels, even though it raised house prices and rents our of reach of the working class and damages the environment? I've not seen it yet. No, the left is too busy protesting against the "racists" protesting against high immigration, instead showing strident support for one of the most misogynist and homophobic regimes in the world.

Working class people are struggling today because left abandoned them. No on represents their interests.

[Sy Borg]

In Congress there are only about 10 members considered on the Left. They included Sen Sanders and the House Reps called “The Squad”. Their beliefs include universal healthcare, social justice, the Green New Deal, tuition-free public college, wealth redistribution, regulation on corporations and freedom from excessive regulations on people.

How does that differ from communism?

The exception is "freedom from excessive regulations", which is what all of the other measures you promote require.

As for the left's continued support of murderous misogynists and homophobes, that is simply cognitive dissonance. These great "human rights champions" show ZERO interest in atrocities in Sudan, Yemen and Syria and they cannot see their own profound hypocrisy.

[Mo_reese]

The left have lost interest in the working class...

Like it or not, the liberal elite are a major part of today's left.

Then "the Left" has changed out of all recognition. The Left advocates for working people, by definition. That is the core of Left politics. If that is no longer the case, then there is no longer a "Left" wing in politics. And maybe that is so? I hope not.

In the US there is essentially no Progressive Left in politics. Big Money rules and they don't fund Progressives. Big Money owns most of the media and it's hard for the Left to get their message out. Some Progressive message is available from independent journalists and some social media but the Big Money is working to shut them down. Censoring "misinformation" is the Big Money's way of justifying censoring the voice of Progressives. We are headed toward a more strict authoritarian government. Big Money defines "misinformation" as information that doesn't align with their elitist agenda.

[Mo_reese]

In Congress there are only about 10 members considered on the Left. They included Sen Sanders and the House Reps called “The Squad”. Their beliefs include universal healthcare, social justice, the Green New Deal, tuition-free public college, wealth redistribution, regulation on corporations and freedom from excessive regulations on people.

How does that differ from communism?

The exception is "freedom from excessive regulations", which is what all of the other measures you promote require.

As for the left's continued support of murderous misogynists and homophobes, that is simply cognitive dissonance. These great "human rights champions" show ZERO interest in atrocities in Sudan, Yemen and Syria and they cannot see their own profound hypocrisy.

Do you equate universal healthcare with communism? Every other modern country has some form of universal healthcare and every one of them has much better healthcare outcomes and much longer life spans. Our problem is that the vulture insurers are allowed to rip us off.
"The Left's continued support of murderous ...." is odd because there is essentially no one from the Left in the government. Who specifically are you referring to? Biden? If so I might agree but he isn't on the Left. Only the Right considers him on the Left.