Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Mo_reese]

You are not referring to reality here. This is a dark fantasy fuelled by a fear-mongering media, who makes money from people's concerns. I also note that a second assassination attempt was made on Trump yesterday, yet there have been no assassination attempts on Biden or Harris. Hmm, it seems that the Brown Shirts are from the far left; they are certainly the most anti-Semitic. Having had relatives gassed by Hitler's actual Brown Shirts, I am rather sensitive to these dynamics.

The left is extremely well-resourced, better resourced that the right - check out the levels of campaign donations. I argue that a civil war in the US would certainly be a hard contest and, more importantly, it would be utterly disastrous for all. Even China, the US's main competitor, would suffer.

We differ significantly on views of reality.

The far left in Congress amounts to Sen Sanders and about 6 or 8 House Reps and they are far from “well-resourced”. Biden, Obama, Harris, Clinton are not on the left, they are neo-liberals. They disagree with everything the Left stands for and agree with the Right on a number of major issues like not taxing the Elite, not regulating corporations, and an unlimited defense budget.

The Left is against Israel's genocide while the Right and the Democratic Elite (Biden, Harris, etc) all support the genocide.

The neo-liberals are well-resourced (134 billionaires funded Biden against the Leftist candidate Sen Sanders who had zero billionaires backing).

If anyone is trying to kill Trump it most likely is the doing of the CIA who are a tool of the Elite Class and not the Left.

Related to a potential civil war in the US, the Left, like Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter and other anti-violence protests are people seeking peace. They are not well armed if armed at all.

The neo-liberals, again NOT THE LEFT, like Biden, Harris, etc. have the militarized police on their side as we've seen when they beat up peaceful leftists. Fox News commonly conflate the Left with the Neo-Liberal Democratic Elite. Nothing is farther from the truth.

You mention that some of your relatives were gassed by Hitler's Brown Shirts. That isn't likely because, if I am not mistaken, the Brown Shirt leadership were all arrested and executed by the SS in about 1932. The extermination camps were not built until about 1941.

[Mo_reese]

In what way do you think this might happen.
By what mechanism would greed end the "American Empire" and what do you think that is, exactly?

The American Empire needs a lot of resources to continue. As the greedy take more and more of the resources from the 99%-People, the harder it will be to get enough via taxes to carry on.

[Sy Borg]

You are not referring to reality here. This is a dark fantasy fuelled by a fear-mongering media, who makes money from people's concerns. I also note that a second assassination attempt was made on Trump yesterday, yet there have been no assassination attempts on Biden or Harris. Hmm, it seems that the Brown Shirts are from the far left; they are certainly the most anti-Semitic. Having had relatives gassed by Hitler's actual Brown Shirts, I am rather sensitive to these dynamics.

The left is extremely well-resourced, better resourced that the right - check out the levels of campaign donations. I argue that a civil war in the US would certainly be a hard contest and, more importantly, it would be utterly disastrous for all. Even China, the US's main competitor, would suffer.

We differ significantly on views of reality.

The far left in Congress amounts to Sen Sanders and about 6 or 8 House Reps and they are far from “well-resourced”. Biden, Obama, Harris, Clinton are not on the left, they are neo-liberals. They disagree with everything the Left stands for and agree with the Right on a number of major issues like not taxing the Elite, not regulating corporations, and an unlimited defense budget.

The Left is against Israel's genocide while the Right and the Democratic Elite (Biden, Harris, etc) all support the genocide.

The neo-liberals are well-resourced (134 billionaires funded Biden against the Leftist candidate Sen Sanders who had zero billionaires backing).

If anyone is trying to kill Trump it most likely is the doing of the CIA who are a tool of the Elite Class and not the Left.

Related to a potential civil war in the US, the Left, like Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter and other anti-violence protests are people seeking peace. They are not well armed if armed at all.

The neo-liberals, again NOT THE LEFT, like Biden, Harris, etc. have the militarized police on their side as we've seen when they beat up peaceful leftists. Fox News commonly conflate the Left with the Neo-Liberal Democratic Elite. Nothing is farther from the truth.

You mention that some of your relatives were gassed by Hitler's Brown Shirts. That isn't likely because, if I am not mistaken, the Brown Shirt leadership were all arrested and executed by the SS in about 1932. The extermination camps were not built until about 1941.

What you describe is "far left" not just "left". Any further than the Sanders faction and you approach communism. Rest assured, if there is a civil war in the US, it's between the left (Democratics) and the right (Republicans). We can only hope there is no civil war because it would be an utter disaster for the the US and for the world.

You are in no position to tell me my family history. I had two cousins gassed by the Nazis for the crime of being Jewish. I certainly do not support the intensely misogynist, homophobic and anti-Semitic Arabs that you falsely claim are suffering genocide (even though they could be saved by any of their neighbours at any time) - but that is offtopic.

We are talking about inequality in the US - please let's stick to that.

[Mo_reese]

The bottom line is that there will be no civil war in the US. If the Left decides to protest, they will see serious attacks from the heavily armed Right Wing and militarized police but they are not equipped to fight back.

Keep in mind that Biden, Harris, Obama, Clinton are not the Left. They have no connection with the Left. They are corporate whores. They have the billionaire backers and will tolerate the Right until they are done with them.

[Sy Borg]

The bottom line is that there will be no civil war in the US. If the Left decides to protest, they will see serious attacks from the heavily armed Right Wing and militarized police but they are not equipped to fight back.

Keep in mind that Biden, Harris, Obama, Clinton are not the Left. They have no connection with the Left. They are corporate whores. They have the billionaire backers and will tolerate the Right until they are done with them.

Incoherent post. Every government that ever existed - left, right or otherwise - had or has wealthy backers or most of the weapons, which is how they managed to form government. No government in the world can exist without wealthy backers or military control. It's no surprise that you always seem to be so angry at the world. Reality is always doing the wrong thing, isn't it?

[Lagayascienza]

As Mo_reese mentioned, there is no real left in American politics apart from Bernie Sanders. And that is why nothing will ever change there. The far-right in the US will continue to accuse the Democrats of being leftists in order to whip up its violent far-right rabble. That won't change. And even if the Democrats were to win this upcoming election, the same small bunch of billioners and multinational corporations will still be running the show. They will never allow a true social-democratic party to exist in the USA much less get into government. The same situation prevalis in places like the UK and Australia. Their Labor parties ceased being truly left decades ago. And so wealth will continue to be sucked upwards to the 1% as real wages for the masses fall further and thier jobs are destroyed by automation and AI.

[Sy Borg]

Nations with true left wing governments. Venezuela (approx $9,000 Purchasing Power Parity). Cuba (around $10,000). NK (approx $1,800). Vietnam ($15,194) Laos ($9,326). Any more?

These nations are, of course, exemplars whom all nations would do well to emulate for prosperity and happiness ... if only those pesky rich people who provide our goods and services didn't keep getting in the way!

The left wing nations clearly have a much better standard of living than the US ($81,695). Australia ($69,115). UK ($58,906). South Korea ($54,033). Switzerland ($92,980). Canada ($61,582). Denmark ($76,688).

We should all try too be more like Venezuela, who are doing so well!

[Sculptor1]

In what way do you think this might happen.
By what mechanism would greed end the "American Empire" and what do you think that is, exactly?

The American Empire needs a lot of resources to continue. As the greedy take more and more of the resources from the 99%-People, the harder it will be to get enough via taxes to carry on.

Are you talking about resources or money. Where are the resources coming from and where are they going. Are they assets or consumables.

[Lagayascienza]

They are not countries with social-democratc governments. And they are not countries we should admire or emulate. They are far-left dictatorships. What we need is something between the two extremes of communist dictatorship and fascist dictatorship. The USA is lurching towards the latter. There is no social-democratic party in the USA.

[Sy Borg]

Do you agree with government mandated price controls? Merchants will decide it's better to stop doing business than to sell goods at a loss, or risk punishment for trying to make a living.

It happened in ancient Rome:

YT summary:

Summary:

The video discusses the historical example of Roman Emperor Diocletian's price control attempt in 301 AD through the Edict of Maximum Prices.

This initiative led to widespread shortages as producers refused to sell goods at the mandated prices. The refusal to comply resulted in the emergence of black markets. There were significant difficulties in enforcing the price controls.

Ultimately, the policy failed and contributed to economic instability.

I expect the upshot is that only giant corporations will be able to turn a profit, decimating small businesses.

We are facing many wicked problems and we need to be careful with policy to avoid causing unintended knock-on problems when interfering with the market. Better to focus on dealing with monopolies and cartels IMO - which helps markets normalise rather than introducing extra distortions. Trouble is, who will take on Blackrock, Big Pharma, Monsato etc?

[Lagayascienza]

I do not believe in government mandated price controls. The market is the best arbiter of price. But, as you say, monopolies and cartels need to be brought to heel so that the market can operate as it should.

That said, I do believe in the government setting minimum wages in line with inflation so that workers real incomes are not whittled away as they have been since the 1970s. Labor must be adequately remunerated both for the good of workers and for the good of the economy so that workers have money to live decent lives and to buy the goods that capitalists produce and so that economies are thus kept boyant. And bankers/financiers need much more rigoraous control so we don't see the nonsense with shares and especially derivitives which led to economies crashing as in 1929 and 2008.

The only way I can see to deal with behemoths like Bkackrock is for governments to break them up. Unfortunately the Blackrocks of the world are in bed with governments. If the 1% keep sucking wealth to the top and the workers are endlessly squeezed we are in for another crash. If the crash is bad enough there will be social unrest and if that is bad enough it may force change.

[Sculptor1]

Do you agree with government mandated price controls? Merchants will decide it's better to stop doing business than to sell goods at a loss, or risk punishment for trying to make a living.

It happened in ancient Rome:

YT summary:

Summary:

The video discusses the historical example of Roman Emperor Diocletian's price control attempt in 301 AD through the Edict of Maximum Prices.

This initiative led to widespread shortages as producers refused to sell goods at the mandated prices. The refusal to comply resulted in the emergence of black markets. There were significant difficulties in enforcing the price controls.

Ultimately, the policy failed and contributed to economic instability.

I expect the upshot is that only giant corporations will be able to turn a profit, decimating small businesses.

We are facing many wicked problems and we need to be careful with policy to avoid causing unintended knock-on problems when interfering with the market. Better to focus on dealing with monopolies and cartels IMO - which helps markets normalise rather than introducing extra distortions. Trouble is, who will take on Blackrock, Big Pharma, Monsato etc?

It's amazing how easily people are suckered into right wing propoganda.
If you really want to know what is going to wcrew the US economy, you might want to look at TARIFFS.

[Sculptor1]

Comparisons with the Ancient economy simply do not work.

Romans did not have any means to store money, except hard currency, actual metal coin hoards.
There was no offshore accounting; no hidden bank accounts; no money laundering.
It is these things that are causing the problems for our Western economies and the inequalities that are their result.

[Pattern-chaser]

The far left in Congress amounts to Sen Sanders and about 6 or 8 House Reps and they are far from “well-resourced”. Biden, Obama, Harris, Clinton are not on the left, they are neo-liberals. They disagree with everything the Left stands for and agree with the Right on a number of major issues like not taxing the Elite, not regulating corporations, and an unlimited defense budget.

The Left is against Israel's genocide while the Right and the Democratic Elite (Biden, Harris, etc) all support the genocide.

The neo-liberals are well-resourced (134 billionaires funded Biden against the Leftist candidate Sen Sanders who had zero billionaires backing).

If anyone is trying to kill Trump it most likely is the doing of the CIA who are a tool of the Elite Class and not the Left.

Related to a potential civil war in the US, the Left, like Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter and other anti-violence protests are people seeking peace. They are not well armed if armed at all.

The neo-liberals, again NOT THE LEFT, like Biden, Harris, etc. have the militarized police on their side as we've seen when they beat up peaceful leftists. Fox News commonly conflate the Left with the Neo-Liberal Democratic Elite. Nothing is farther from the truth.

You mention that some of your relatives were gassed by Hitler's Brown Shirts. That isn't likely because, if I am not mistaken, the Brown Shirt leadership were all arrested and executed by the SS in about 1932. The extermination camps were not built until about 1941.

I would tend to agree with the overall sentiment here. This is not about the political left or right, it's the billionaires, the super-rich, the "Elite Class" AmeriCapitalists, against the rest of humanity (and the rest of our planetary ecosystem).

[Pattern-chaser]

We are talking about inequality in the US - please let's stick to that.

In fairness, I think it was you who introduced the Middle East conflict here, in this topic?