Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sy Borg]

In some ways, the political class and corporate interests do conspire against the working class by pushing for high immigration levels. Since most of them own property, this increases the value of their holdings while placing pressure on the working class, adding competition for housing and employment.

Then, if the working class complain about their worsening standard of living, they are labelled racists and "far right" fringe by the Chardonnay socialists sitting on their booming property values. If the working class go to social media because the mainstream media (with their many home owners) has entirely abandoned them and treats them with contempt, there are calls to control "misinformation" and to restrict social media.

Further, the division these policies stoke give governments the chance to increase their control and power, reducing their accountability and transparency.

Interesting that the Elite of the Republican Party used "illegal" immigration as being a threat to the lives of working class Americans as a campaign issue. Year after year they expounded on the dangers of illegal immigration and promised that, if elected, they would solve that problem. Of course the Elite benefited from the immigration as you mention and therefore they did nothing. The base got fed up with that lie and others made by the party elite and turned to a supposedly anti-elitist in Trump. A populist revolution that may end in an authoritarian led government. This is what the country's founders feared.
On the other hand the non-democratic Democrat Party has been able to hold down the attempts at populist revolutions like Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter and the Sen Sanders quest for the presidency.

The "illegal" aspect is somewhat of a furphy. Yes, undocumented migrants may well include bad actors - that's why migrants to most countries are vetted.

But the main issue is a matter of basic numbers - supply and demand. More people equals lower wages and higher housing costs - a strategy that is touted by the middle class as "compassionate" while ignoring how it impacts the working class and the poor. All parties have played the same game, using but they do so with different rhetoric.

With climate change affecting so much of the globe , movements of peoples are going to become more and more problematic. Isn't it a matter of scientific facts how increase in population density will be sorted out. The "working class and the poor" need to be informed by actual facts and figures which for some reason the media have not got round to doing. The greater fear is of the extreme right wing's final solution and its variants.

This is not about climate change, it's about the west being inundated by people whose governments have abrogated their responsibilities.

Do you think that the west can absorb the 300+ million people around the world who are impoverished? At what point do nations take responsibility for their own people?

In short, you are saying to the working class - "we are middle class and doing okay but you guys can just suck it up".

[Belinda]

Interesting that the Elite of the Republican Party used "illegal" immigration as being a threat to the lives of working class Americans as a campaign issue. Year after year they expounded on the dangers of illegal immigration and promised that, if elected, they would solve that problem. Of course the Elite benefited from the immigration as you mention and therefore they did nothing. The base got fed up with that lie and others made by the party elite and turned to a supposedly anti-elitist in Trump. A populist revolution that may end in an authoritarian led government. This is what the country's founders feared.
On the other hand the non-democratic Democrat Party has been able to hold down the attempts at populist revolutions like Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter and the Sen Sanders quest for the presidency.

The "illegal" aspect is somewhat of a furphy. Yes, undocumented migrants may well include bad actors - that's why migrants to most countries are vetted.

But the main issue is a matter of basic numbers - supply and demand. More people equals lower wages and higher housing costs - a strategy that is touted by the middle class as "compassionate" while ignoring how it impacts the working class and the poor. All parties have played the same game, using but they do so with different rhetoric.

With climate change affecting so much of the globe , movements of peoples are going to become more and more problematic. Isn't it a matter of scientific facts how increase in population density will be sorted out. The "working class and the poor" need to be informed by actual facts and figures which for some reason the media have not got round to doing. The greater fear is of the extreme right wing's final solution and its variants.

This is not about climate change, it's about the west being inundated by people whose governments have abrogated their responsibilities.

Do you think that the west can absorb the 300+ million people around the world who are impoverished? At what point do nations take responsibility for their own people?

In short, you are saying to the working class - "we are middle class and doing okay but you guys can just suck it up".

I'm middle class by education and working class by income. Immoral dictators are abhorrent.
Are you advocating nationalism, or patriotism? Patriotism is good for peoples everywhere when it's not jingoism. Impoverished peoples are impoverished because multinational companies colonise them and their dictators. Multinationals are an effect of unbridled capitalism.

[Sy Borg]

The "illegal" aspect is somewhat of a furphy. Yes, undocumented migrants may well include bad actors - that's why migrants to most countries are vetted.

But the main issue is a matter of basic numbers - supply and demand. More people equals lower wages and higher housing costs - a strategy that is touted by the middle class as "compassionate" while ignoring how it impacts the working class and the poor. All parties have played the same game, using but they do so with different rhetoric.

With climate change affecting so much of the globe , movements of peoples are going to become more and more problematic. Isn't it a matter of scientific facts how increase in population density will be sorted out. The "working class and the poor" need to be informed by actual facts and figures which for some reason the media have not got round to doing. The greater fear is of the extreme right wing's final solution and its variants.

This is not about climate change, it's about the west being inundated by people whose governments have abrogated their responsibilities.

Do you think that the west can absorb the 300+ million people around the world who are impoverished? At what point do nations take responsibility for their own people?

In short, you are saying to the working class - "we are middle class and doing okay but you guys can just suck it up".

I'm middle class by education and working class by income. Immoral dictators are abhorrent.
Are you advocating nationalism, or patriotism? Patriotism is good for peoples everywhere when it's not jingoism. Impoverished peoples are impoverished because multinational companies colonise them and their dictators. Multinationals are an effect of unbridled capitalism.

I'm advocating logic. All of those -isms - including leftist and socialism - are devices used in lieu of reason and logical thought.

If a country is crowded and struggling to provide housing and jobs for their people, then mass immigration is irresponsible. However, it boosts GDP (while reducing GDP per capita) and allows politicians to posture as "compassionate" - even as their actions are cruel to existing working class and poor.

No, people are impoverished because a proportion of people have always been impoverished. There has never been a level playing field, nor should there be. Every attempt to handicap the strong and boost the weak has ended is disaster - and the weak cop it even worse. Venezuela is a classic example.

To blame corporations for all ills is to ignore all of history, not to mention ignoring the concept of individual responsibility, an increasing trend in today's superficial public conversations that lionises "victims" and demonised "oppressors".

Speaking personally, the greater the distance between institutions and me - be they corporations or governments (who are increasingly entwined) - the better my life is. These monoliths treat unaligned individuals as chattel. They will happily leave you on hold for an hour to save money and limit demand, but they are necessary evils. A nation with weak institutions will be certain to be taken over by nations with strong institutions. That is why nationalism - another necessary evil - is important and not just the domain of the mythical "far right".

[Good_Egg]

The "working class and the poor" need to be informed by actual facts and figures...

The objection to unrestrained immigration is two-fold.

One part is economic - that immigrants from poorer cultures will work for lower wages and thus depress the market value of the working man's labour.

One part is cultural - that when you get the sort of immigrants who don't speak good English and don't behave (dress, drink, vote, worship etc) as the native-born citizens do then those natives start to feel that the place they live isn't theirs any more.

Neither objection is in any way assuaged by knowing any "facts and figures".

The notion that these objections spring from ignorance is the sort of patronising nonsense spouted by those who despise the very working class that they claim to champion.

[Belinda]

With climate change affecting so much of the globe , movements of peoples are going to become more and more problematic. Isn't it a matter of scientific facts how increase in population density will be sorted out. The "working class and the poor" need to be informed by actual facts and figures which for some reason the media have not got round to doing. The greater fear is of the extreme right wing's final solution and its variants.

This is not about climate change, it's about the west being inundated by people whose governments have abrogated their responsibilities.

Do you think that the west can absorb the 300+ million people around the world who are impoverished? At what point do nations take responsibility for their own people?

In short, you are saying to the working class - "we are middle class and doing okay but you guys can just suck it up".

I'm middle class by education and working class by income. Immoral dictators are abhorrent.
Are you advocating nationalism, or patriotism? Patriotism is good for peoples everywhere when it's not jingoism. Impoverished peoples are impoverished because multinational companies colonise them and their dictators. Multinationals are an effect of unbridled capitalism.

I'm advocating logic. All of those -isms - including leftist and socialism - are devices used in lieu of reason and logical thought.

If a country is crowded and struggling to provide housing and jobs for their people, then mass immigration is irresponsible. However, it boosts GDP (while reducing GDP per capita) and allows politicians to posture as "compassionate" - even as their actions are cruel to existing working class and poor.

No, people are impoverished because a proportion of people have always been impoverished. There has never been a level playing field, nor should there be. Every attempt to handicap the strong and boost the weak has ended is disaster - and the weak cop it even worse. Venezuela is a classic example.

To blame corporations for all ills is to ignore all of history, not to mention ignoring the concept of individual responsibility, an increasing trend in today's superficial public conversations that lionises "victims" and demonised "oppressors".

Speaking personally, the greater the distance between institutions and me - be they corporations or governments (who are increasingly entwined) - the better my life is. These monoliths treat unaligned individuals as chattel. They will happily leave you on hold for an hour to save money and limit demand, but they are necessary evils. A nation with weak institutions will be certain to be taken over by nations with strong institutions. That is why nationalism - another necessary evil - is important and not just the domain of the mythical "far right".

Sorry about the isms. I actually was aware of this unhappy feature of my discussion. Ism seems to be the only lexicon that is reasonably concise. BTW you yourself use a lot of big or otherwise sophisticated words.E.g. Chattel. institutions, increasingly entwined, mythical,demonised,superficial, lionised, impoverished. You include a fair proportion of AngloSaxon and that is good, and you avoid the AS four letter words as we all must on this forum

[Belinda]

The "working class and the poor" need to be informed by actual facts and figures...

The objection to unrestrained immigration is two-fold.

One part is economic - that immigrants from poorer cultures will work for lower wages and thus depress the market value of the working man's labour.

One part is cultural - that when you get the sort of immigrants who don't speak good English and don't behave (dress, drink, vote, worship etc) as the native-born citizens do then those natives start to feel that the place they live isn't theirs any more.

Neither objection is in any way assuaged by knowing any "facts and figures".

The notion that these objections spring from ignorance is the sort of patronising nonsense spouted by those who despise the very working class that they claim to champion.

I am working class myself and don't despise working class. I despise the behavior of people who riot and attack lives and properties because not only are such people violent they are also poorly informed compared with others who know actual numbers of individuals concerned.

Fact :one mosque supplied food to a number of rioters and thereby made friends with them so that they embraced each other. The Muslims from the mosque knew that the rioters were human beings The rioters had until then had not understood that Muslims are human being too.

[Sy Borg]

This is not about climate change, it's about the west being inundated by people whose governments have abrogated their responsibilities.

Do you think that the west can absorb the 300+ million people around the world who are impoverished? At what point do nations take responsibility for their own people?

In short, you are saying to the working class - "we are middle class and doing okay but you guys can just suck it up".

I'm middle class by education and working class by income. Immoral dictators are abhorrent.
Are you advocating nationalism, or patriotism? Patriotism is good for peoples everywhere when it's not jingoism. Impoverished peoples are impoverished because multinational companies colonise them and their dictators. Multinationals are an effect of unbridled capitalism.

I'm advocating logic. All of those -isms - including leftist and socialism - are devices used in lieu of reason and logical thought.

If a country is crowded and struggling to provide housing and jobs for their people, then mass immigration is irresponsible. However, it boosts GDP (while reducing GDP per capita) and allows politicians to posture as "compassionate" - even as their actions are cruel to existing working class and poor.

No, people are impoverished because a proportion of people have always been impoverished. There has never been a level playing field, nor should there be. Every attempt to handicap the strong and boost the weak has ended is disaster - and the weak cop it even worse. Venezuela is a classic example.

To blame corporations for all ills is to ignore all of history, not to mention ignoring the concept of individual responsibility, an increasing trend in today's superficial public conversations that lionises "victims" and demonised "oppressors".

Speaking personally, the greater the distance between institutions and me - be they corporations or governments (who are increasingly entwined) - the better my life is. These monoliths treat unaligned individuals as chattel. They will happily leave you on hold for an hour to save money and limit demand, but they are necessary evils. A nation with weak institutions will be certain to be taken over by nations with strong institutions. That is why nationalism - another necessary evil - is important and not just the domain of the mythical "far right".

Sorry about the isms. I actually was aware of this unhappy feature of my discussion. Ism seems to be the only lexicon that is reasonably concise. BTW you yourself use a lot of big or otherwise sophisticated words.E.g. Chattel. institutions, increasingly entwined, mythical,demonised,superficial, lionised, impoverished. You include a fair proportion of AngloSaxon and that is good, and you avoid the AS four letter words as we all must on this forum

The issue is not eloquence but lumping people into ideologies. Ideologies are philosophical poison, a barrier that stands between people and reality. -isms are a box, a mental cage. Nationalist. Patriot. What about simply looking at a situation and considering the most prudent course of action?

[Sy Borg]

The "working class and the poor" need to be informed by actual facts and figures...

The objection to unrestrained immigration is two-fold.

One part is economic - that immigrants from poorer cultures will work for lower wages and thus depress the market value of the working man's labour.

One part is cultural - that when you get the sort of immigrants who don't speak good English and don't behave (dress, drink, vote, worship etc) as the native-born citizens do then those natives start to feel that the place they live isn't theirs any more.

Neither objection is in any way assuaged by knowing any "facts and figures".

The notion that these objections spring from ignorance is the sort of patronising nonsense spouted by those who despise the very working class that they claim to champion.

I am working class myself and don't despise working class. I despise the behavior of people who riot and attack lives and properties because not only are such people violent they are also poorly informed compared with others who know actual numbers of individuals concerned.

Fact :one mosque supplied food to a number of rioters and thereby made friends with them so that they embraced each other. The Muslims from the mosque knew that the rioters were human beings The rioters had until then had not understood that Muslims are human being too.

I note that synagogues in France are being burnt, but that doesn't seem to make the news. Jews are human beings too.

[Pattern-chaser]

The "illegal" aspect is somewhat of a furphy. Yes, undocumented migrants may well include bad actors - that's why migrants to most countries are vetted.

Yes. One thing I heard recently, that surprised me a little, concerned the small boats filled with prospective immigrants that cross the English Channel to get here. Our media would have us believe that they are all economic migrants, coming here to profit from our welfare policies, etc. It turns out that, after a proper assessment — despite huge backlogs — two thirds are found to be properly-deserving refugees, and allowed to stay.

Yes, that means one third are not accepted, but 2 out of 3 are here for good reasons, it seems. That's more than we all thought, I think?

[Pattern-chaser]

This is not about climate change, it's about the west being inundated by people whose governments have abrogated their responsibilities.

In fairness, *some* of the refugees that are arriving in Western countries are refugees because of (military) actions by Western governments and forces. Others flee their homes for other reasons, of course. This is not a fixed-focus single-issue matter, as I think we all agree?

And climate change is becoming more significant. It's there, in the background, gradually exerting a greater effect as time goes on, and climatic and environmental changes proceed. As time goes on, it will become more and more significant. This is more than just a random guess, we can already see it today, although other reasons still outweigh it (I think?).

[Pattern-chaser]

I note that synagogues in France are being burnt, but that doesn't seem to make the news. Jews are human beings too.

Palestinians are humans too. But this issue is bigger than the current Middle Eastern conflict.

[Mo_reese]

The "illegal" aspect is somewhat of a furphy. Yes, undocumented migrants may well include bad actors - that's why migrants to most countries are vetted.

But the main issue is a matter of basic numbers - supply and demand. More people equals lower wages and higher housing costs - a strategy that is touted by the middle class as "compassionate" while ignoring how it impacts the working class and the poor. All parties have played the same game, using but they do so with different rhetoric.

With climate change affecting so much of the globe , movements of peoples are going to become more and more problematic. Isn't it a matter of scientific facts how increase in population density will be sorted out. The "working class and the poor" need to be informed by actual facts and figures which for some reason the media have not got round to doing. The greater fear is of the extreme right wing's final solution and its variants.

I see the migration of poor people to the richer neighborhoods as karma. The gated neighborhoods stole resources from the rest of the world for centuries. Now it time to pay the piper.
Not only doesn't the corporate (elite) media inform the People Class of what they need to know (truth) they in fact try to gaslight us into trusting them or better yet, have blind faith in them. If you want the weather, the New York Times most likely will tell the truth but if it's anything to do with profits for the Elite, they most definitely will not. The NYT: “There are WMD in Iraq, honest”
“Blind Faith is the root of all Evil”

The potential of a “final solution” won't just come from the Right but from the Elite Class (bipartisanship) which is currently 100% on board with the current “final solution” in Gaza.

[Sy Borg]

The "illegal" aspect is somewhat of a furphy. Yes, undocumented migrants may well include bad actors - that's why migrants to most countries are vetted.

But the main issue is a matter of basic numbers - supply and demand. More people equals lower wages and higher housing costs - a strategy that is touted by the middle class as "compassionate" while ignoring how it impacts the working class and the poor. All parties have played the same game, using but they do so with different rhetoric.

With climate change affecting so much of the globe , movements of peoples are going to become more and more problematic. Isn't it a matter of scientific facts how increase in population density will be sorted out. The "working class and the poor" need to be informed by actual facts and figures which for some reason the media have not got round to doing. The greater fear is of the extreme right wing's final solution and its variants.

I see the migration of poor people to the richer neighborhoods as karma.

Payback. Revenge.

[Belinda]

The "illegal" aspect is somewhat of a furphy. Yes, undocumented migrants may well include bad actors - that's why migrants to most countries are vetted.

But the main issue is a matter of basic numbers - supply and demand. More people equals lower wages and higher housing costs - a strategy that is touted by the middle class as "compassionate" while ignoring how it impacts the working class and the poor. All parties have played the same game, using but they do so with different rhetoric.

With climate change affecting so much of the globe , movements of peoples are going to become more and more problematic. Isn't it a matter of scientific facts how increase in population density will be sorted out. The "working class and the poor" need to be informed by actual facts and figures which for some reason the media have not got round to doing. The greater fear is of the extreme right wing's final solution and its variants.

I see the migration of poor people to the richer neighborhoods as karma. The gated neighborhoods stole resources from the rest of the world for centuries. Now it time to pay the piper.
Not only doesn't the corporate (elite) media inform the People Class of what they need to know (truth) they in fact try to gaslight us into trusting them or better yet, have blind faith in them. If you want the weather, the New York Times most likely will tell the truth but if it's anything to do with profits for the Elite, they most definitely will not. The NYT: “There are WMD in Iraq, honest”
“Blind Faith is the root of all Evil”

The potential of a “final solution” won't just come from the Right but from the Elite Class (bipartisanship) which is currently 100% on board with the current “final solution” in Gaza.

I did not write the first two paragraphs you said I wrote;I wrote only the last paragraph. I expect you got the quotation box wrong and I have made a similar mistake.

[Mo_reese]

I did not write the first two paragraphs you said I wrote;I wrote only the last paragraph. I expect you got the quotation box wrong and I have made a similar mistake.

My apologies. I do need work on using the quotations.